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Why Transmutation Is Not a Valid Test For The Philsopher's Stone?

pierre

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I like your answer, Schmuld... i feel it's correct and makes sense to me. Thanks.
 

Chrysa Lead

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Why transmutation is not a valid test for the Philsopher Stone ?
In Hermetism there is the science of Archemy, that deals partly with the transmutatory matters, and "particulars" able to make sometime, powerful (more or less) transmutation powders, looking like a Powder from a Stone, and making the same effect on lead or any metal (and making of gold a red glass, etc).
Salazius

An old but very intersting thread.

When you got a philosopher's stone it means that you made a step on your own "evolution".
If it's the first one or the 10 000th of course the effect will be different.

For exemple : an alchemist want to test "the power" ot what he got in the metallic path.
He takes some metal and try to get some gold.
If he is in his "starting work", he will get 1% of gold or less or nothing (yes, it happens)!

If he get no gold at all it's not because he didn't get a P.Stone, but because he didn't work at all on something.
He missed a part on his work ...

More he is working with his "matter", more this "matter" his working on him (my english is not well, maybe I'm not clear ... Sorry about it).

Time after time, he will be "cleaned"/"purified" on his 3 levels (body / soul / spirit).
Then the result of his P.Stone will allow transmutations with more and more % of gold.

An adept who is very "avenced" on his path wont make tests anymore.
He will become able to materialised his thougths : by thinking about gold, he will get "materialised gold" in the front of him.

At that level, nothing is needed : as if "tests" are only for "new adepts" to allow them to mesure where there are on the path they choose.
The Philosopher's Stone gives you the tools to do it.

This story about the thougths which become materialised can happen in a involontary way !

This is the big choc for the person ...
It means that this person made an evolution without any "Labora".

Everything is possible.
Each path is totaly personnal and unique.
 

black

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Hi Chrysa Lead

Over the years here on Alchemy Forums (I do believe) there have been many members
that have felt they have discovered something of value in this Alchemic Art.

It would be a great benefit to anyone working in the lab to be able to put their work to a Test.

The more tests that we can conduct the more sure of our work we can be.

Could you suggest any additional tests we can do to help verify our work ?

If so ... I'm sure there are many members and readers of this Thread that would
greatly appreciate any advice.


An adept who is very "advanced" on his path wont make tests anymore.
He will become able to materialized his thoughts : by thinking about gold, he will get "materialized gold" in the front of him.

There is a thread on materializing : The power of materialization/transmutation with the mind


I would be glad to hear if you have more to say on this subject.
 

JDP

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Trying to argue that transmutation is supposedly not a valid test for the Stone is an obvious cheap cop-out by the type of people who have repeatedly failed to achieve any such thing but still want to engage in the fantasy that they have produced the Stone or some other truly alchemical "tincture". In other words, a silly excuse by people who do not want to admit failure and still want to fantasize that they are "adepts". They will invent 1001 excuses rather than honestly admit they haven't succeeded in obtaining the real thing, since none of their supposed "Stones" can do what they have been forced to desperately try to deny. The fact is that alchemy since its very beginning has been inextricably linked to the making of gold and silver by means of substances that will perform transmutation by means of "projection" over much larger amounts of base metals. The property that alchemical "tinctures" have of doing this is what actually distinguishes alchemy and its productions from everything else, and yet this type of people want to deny the very thing itself! So, yes, transmutation by "projection"* is not only a valid test, it is in fact THE DEFINITIVE TEST OF SUCCESS in alchemy, as no other branch of human industry can achieve any such substances but alchemy.

*Notice that I say "by projection", because it is possible to achieve transmutations by "direct" methods that do not require such "tinctures". But these processes belong to transmutational chymistry, not alchemy (the majority of alchemists in fact stubbornly and rather ignorantly deny all such methods and brand them as "sophistical and false" and its proponents as "fools", "sophists", "puffers", "multipliers", etc.)
 

zoas23

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Trying to argue that transmutation is supposedly not a valid test for the Stone is an obvious cheap cop-out by the type of people who have repeatedly failed to achieve any such thing but still want to engage in the fantasy that they have produced the Stone or some other truly alchemical "tincture". In other words, a silly excuse by people who do not want to admit failure and still want to fantasize that they are "adepts".

Hmmm... Go back to the first post. The message is quite clear there:

1) If a Stone can transmute, it does not necessarily mean that it is "safe" to consume it.
2) A Stone that is "safe" to consume does not ALWAYS have the "power" of turning metals into gold.

... both ideas are perfectly compatible with a vast amount of texts that simply explain that a transmutational Stone needs to be feeded with gold, whilst a "medicinal" one is identical, but does not contain metallic gold (I know, other authors disagree and state that there are not "2 forms", but only one... and some of them insist on the idea that it MUST contain gold, whilst others insist that it is better if it doesn't... and others that it should not contain gold in both cases).

So, it is truly a "safety" thread, which is always good... and simply saying: "If you have something that CAN transmute metals into gold, don't rush to consume it and be cautious, because it may be poisonous".

... which is a good advice, especially considering that several members have a "R.I.P." sign under their names... So it is an excellent advice actually.
 

JDP

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Hmmm... Go back to the first post. The message is quite clear there:

1) If a Stone can transmute, it does not necessarily mean that it is "safe" to consume it.
2) A Stone that is "safe" to consume does not ALWAYS have the "power" of turning metals into gold.

... both ideas are perfectly compatible with a vast amount of texts that simply explain that a transmutational Stone needs to be feeded with gold, whilst a "medicinal" one is identical, but does not contain metallic gold (I know, other authors disagree and state that there are not "2 forms", but only one... and some of them insist on the idea that it MUST contain gold, whilst others insist that it is better if it doesn't... and others that it should not contain gold in both cases).

So, it is truly a "safety" thread, which is always good... and simply saying: "If you have something that CAN transmute metals into gold, don't rush to consume it and be cautious, because it may be poisonous".

... which is a good advice, especially considering that several members have a "R.I.P." sign under their names... So it is an excellent advice actually.

That is not exactly the argument being made in the first post. Plus your argument is a bit "iffy" as well. Testing the "Medicine/Elixir/Stone" on yourself or other living things first without first being more sure that you have the genuine article is not wise advice. So, the best course of action still is a preliminary transmutation test before you decide to take the risk of ingesting the thing or having someone or something else take it before you do: all you have to do is take a sample of what you think is the red or white Stone, "ferment" it with gold or silver (i.e. just melt some gold or silver and "project" a sample of the Stone on it), then use the "fermented" Stone on a larger amount of hot mercury or molten lead (these two metals are very easy to eliminate from whatever gold or silver is produced, just in case you used too small a sample of the Stone for too much base metal for all of it to be transmuted) and see if it "coagulates" them and turns them into gold or silver. If it does, then THIS IS AN UNMISTAKABLE SIGN THAT YOU HAVE THE GENUINE ARTICLE IN YOUR HANDS, considering that there are no other substances, either natural or man-made, that can perform such a thing except alchemical "tinctures". There can be no confusion with anything else here. So, now you can proceed to start testing its reputed medicinal/longevity properties on living things.
 

zoas23

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That is not exactly the argument being made in the first post. Plus your argument is a bit "iffy" as well. Testing the "Medicine/Elixir/Stone" on yourself or other living things first without first being more sure that you have the genuine article is not wise advice. So, the best course of action still is a preliminary transmutation test before you decide to take the risk of ingesting the thing or having someone or something else take it before you do: all you have to do is take a sample of what you think is the red or white Stone, "ferment" it with gold or silver (i.e. just melt some gold or silver and "project" a sample of the Stone on it), then use the "fermented" Stone on a larger amount of hot mercury or molten lead (these two metals are very easy to eliminate from whatever gold or silver is produced, just in case you used too small a sample of the Stone for too much base metal for all of it to be transmuted) and see if it "coagulates" them and turns them into gold or silver. If it does, then THIS IS AN UNMISTAKABLE SIGN THAT YOU HAVE THE GENUINE ARTICLE IN YOUR HANDS, considering that there are no other substances, either natural or man-made, that can perform such a thing except alchemical "tinctures". There can be no confusion with anything else here. So, now you can proceed to start testing its reputed medicinal/longevity properties on living things.

OK.... I simply read the first message as a "be cautious; after being cautious, keep on being cautious... and after keeping on being cautious, don't forget to be cautious"... which is a good advice.
It does not deny your idea, it is simply a reminder for those who may get a bt "enthusiast" and may do something that could end up VERY bad.... which is a good reminder and not really in contradiction with what you have explained.
 

z0 K

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That is not exactly the argument being made in the first post. Plus your argument is a bit "iffy" as well. Testing the "Medicine/Elixir/Stone" on yourself or other living things first without first being more sure that you have the genuine article is not wise advice. So, the best course of action still is a preliminary transmutation test before you decide to take the risk of ingesting the thing or having someone or something else take it before you do: all you have to do is take a sample of what you think is the red or white Stone, "ferment" it with gold or silver (i.e. just melt some gold or silver and "project" a sample of the Stone on it), then use the "fermented" Stone on a larger amount of hot mercury or molten lead (these two metals are very easy to eliminate from whatever gold or silver is produced, just in case you used too small a sample of the Stone for too much base metal for all of it to be transmuted) and see if it "coagulates" them and turns them into gold or silver. If it does, then THIS IS AN UNMISTAKABLE SIGN THAT YOU HAVE THE GENUINE ARTICLE IN YOUR HANDS, considering that there are no other substances, either natural or man-made, that can perform such a thing except alchemical "tinctures". There can be no confusion with anything else here. So, now you can proceed to start testing its reputed medicinal/longevity properties on living things.

It is good advice to test the Elixir for transmutation activity. Testing on Man's body is not advised by either Ripley or Hollandus unless it was made without corrosives. Both stress that the Elixir made with gold: Au is not for human consumption if the Au or Ag was purified by corrosives. Hollandus says the Elilxir made with herbs to the Vegetable Stone or Quintessence state can be used to open Au and that will transmute metals and is also good for man's body. Ripley says the Elixir for Man's health does not have Au in it at all.

They disagree about the toxicity of the Sulfur Fire necessary to make the Red Elixir. Hollandus says it is too hot for Man's body. Ripley says it is good for Man's body. Personally I do not use it for human health. When it is purified it smells very pleasant like fresh roasted nuts.

In addition Ripley says that the Stone for the Poor has no Au or Ag in it. It is the White Stone and is excellent for man's body and will also transmute tin and copper into silver without the addition of any Ag. He says that the Red Stone made without any Au in it will transmute lead and silver into gold. And those made that way with Au or Ag (without corrosives) are also good for Man's body.
 

black

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Over the years I have assumed that the Philosophers Stone did everything .....
transmuted base metals to gold or silver, cured diseases and gave us
longevity so we could have more time here to evolve on our spiritual
journey.

But .....

Originally Posted by zoas23

1) If a Stone can transmute, it does not necessarily mean that it is "safe" to consume it.
2) A Stone that is "safe" to consume does not ALWAYS have the "power" of turning metals into gold.

Zoas23 you bring some interesting ideas to the table and it is stirring my
imagination to think that there may be a lot more to this Art of Alchemy
than first meets the eye.
 

elixirmixer

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I have on occasion tried to point out the possibility that there exists multiple stones of transmutational power. Some are specified to the mineral kingdom, some animal, and there is one that is completely universal.

Its important to understand these differences, and to try and see when an author is talking about the mystery kabbalistic material which brings the universal all-in-one stone; and when the author is referring to a specified one.

IMO. :)
 

Chrysa Lead

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It is good advice to test the Elixir for transmutation activity. Testing on Man's body is not advised by either Ripley or Hollandus unless it was made without corrosives. Both stress that the Elixir made with gold: Au is not for human consumption if the Au or Ag was purified by corrosives. Hollandus says the Elilxir made with herbs to the Vegetable Stone or Quintessence state can be used to open Au and that will transmute metals and is also good for man's body. Ripley says the Elixir for Man's health does not have Au in it at all.

They disagree about the toxicity of the Sulfur Fire necessary to make the Red Elixir. Hollandus says it is too hot for Man's body. Ripley says it is good for Man's body. Personally I do not use it for human health. When it is purified it smells very pleasant like fresh roasted nuts.

In addition Ripley says that the Stone for the Poor has no Au or Ag in it. It is the White Stone and is excellent for man's body and will also transmute tin and copper into silver without the addition of any Ag. He says that the Red Stone made without any Au in it will transmute lead and silver into gold. And those made that way with Au or Ag (without corrosives) are also good for Man's body.

About the famous "Drinkable Gold" : where is the best thread to speak about it ?

Thank you
 

Chrysa Lead

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Hi Chrysa Lead

Over the years here on Alchemy Forums (I do believe) there have been many members
that have felt they have discovered something of value in this Alchemic Art.

It would be a great benefit to anyone working in the lab to be able to put their work to a Test.

The more tests that we can conduct the more sure of our work we can be.

Could you suggest any additional tests we can do to help verify our work ?

If so ... I'm sure there are many members and readers of this Thread that would
greatly appreciate any advice.

There is a thread on materializing : The power of materialization/transmutation with the mind


I would be glad to hear if you have more to say on this subject.

black,

I will do it.
 

JDP

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I have on occasion tried to point out the possibility that there exists multiple stones of transmutational power. Some are specified to the mineral kingdom, some animal, and there is one that is completely universal.

Its important to understand these differences, and to try and see when an author is talking about the mystery kabbalistic material which brings the universal all-in-one stone; and when the author is referring to a specified one.

IMO. :)

The older alchemists tend to speak only of two "Medicines/Elixirs/Stones/Tinctures": one white, which transmutes base metals into silver, and one red, which transmutes metals into gold. That's it. They scoffed and laughed at any other claims. But some of the Byzantine, Syriac, Persian and Arabic authors also started to write about other "Medicines/Elixirs/Stones/Tinctures" made from many different substances and various methods. Their "recipes" for them, though, if taken 100% to the letter, look phonier than a $3 bill. The majority of alchemists denounced this kind of stuff as things designed by some "philosophers" (i.e. alchemists) to mislead "the vulgar" into blind alleys, or as just the fantasies, boasts and/or lies of "sophists". This type of literature eventually evolved into the "recipe" style literature which I call "proto-chymical" (an early example of such texts would be the medieval Latin text called De aluminibus et salibus, which is based on a nowadays "lost" Arabic original; it is a mishmash of excerpts taken from actual alchemical sources, like Jabir, for example, and "puffer" style "recipes" promising all sorts of transmutations, the majority of which look blatantly phony as hell or are written in a manner which is pretty much impossible to put to the test, like, for example, using substances or operations which are hardly described or identified in a clear manner to the reader.) Here we find all manner of transmutation claims, not only the ones that promise "Medicines/Elixirs/Stones/Tinctures" that can transmute many times their own weight of this or that metal into silver or gold (all of which are phony baloney; only alchemy, properly, can produce such substances) but also "direct" transmutation methods, where some base metals (copper, tin, lead, etc.) are made to yield silver, and silver made to yield gold. Some of these processes are in fact quite real and do deliver positive results. These processes and techniques of the late-ancient and medieval "puffers" and "multipliers" formed the basis of what later on (viz. 16th to 18th centuries) would become what I label "transmutational chymistry". But around those times there also appeared in genuinely alchemical literature claims that other transmuting "tinctures", often called "particulars" or "particular tinctures" (for an example of an early use of such terminology in this sense see Salomon Trismosin's autobiographical account; one of the earliest texts to use this terminology is the Correctorium Alchemiae, attributed to Richard the Englishman, but he only accepts two "particulars", all others he brands as false and sophistical), can also be made by using the secret solvent/water/mercury of alchemy. Some historical transmutation accounts are evidently about such "tinctures", and not the Stone properly.
 

zoas23

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Over the years I have assumed that the Philosophers Stone did everything .....
transmuted base metals to gold or silver, cured diseases and gave us
longevity so we could have more time here to evolve on our spiritual
journey.

But .....
Zoas23 you bring some interesting ideas to the table and it is stirring my
imagination to think that there may be a lot more to this Art of Alchemy
than first meets the eye.

I am not bringing anything "new", what I wrote is not incredibly different than the very first post of the thread.
Other than that, several texts are VERY explicit about it and they don't really talk about "two stones", but about some variations which are needed for a "transmutational use" and a "medicine" (in the literal sense, i.e, not a "medicine for metals").
Of course, other authors speak of only one with no variations... and others are absolutely focused on the transmutations of metals only.

Then again, I don't think the philosophical discussion is the BIG thing here, but the advice of being cautious, especially about consuming things simply because the "intuition" of whatever leads to believe that they should be safe. Playing "Russian Roulette" with what we consume is not a good idea.