The Reality of Illusion

[Awani]

Are we each the only real thing in our own personal Universe? Ive always wondered...

As my example shows, that is impossible to know. I guess in a sense if we build a sentient robot, then we can ask that robot if we exist or not... since the robot would be outside this "sphere". But that does not work either, since the robot exists within "this" realm. It is a closed loop.

The desktop on your computer can never be aware of the world outside the plastic covers of the computer itself, it is locked in its own relative universe. Perhaps in death such answers will be given, but even then we are closed off in "that" realm... basically no matter what we do, we will always be trapped in our own conscious experience... never truly knowing what that experience is, unless we somehow manage (through death or other means) become something else entire... just as water is only wet if it is perecieved by something that is dry. Etc.

I guess another way of saying this is:

 

[Lux Natura]

I suggest the book "Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind" by Yuval Noah Harari. It's a great read in general, and has ideas that are relevant to this topic.

Our capacity for imagination, myth making, belief making, etc... is responsible for not just our own subjective realities, but inter-subjective realities - subjective realities that are shared. A large group of people can believe in something that does not objectively exist, but the existence of that idea create a reality inside the culture those members belong to. Thus we act on illusions as if they were real, and our minds cannot tell the difference.

 

[Awani]

Thus we act on illusions as if they were real, and our minds cannot tell the difference.

That's because the illusion thus becomes real. The devil only exist if you believe in him etc.

 

[Awani]

 

[Luxus]

If reality was an illusion jumping off a building wouldn't result in you being splatted on the floor.

In vedic teachings there are loka's (realms) they all exist simultaneously hear and now but you are locked into your loka and only perceive that reality. Some yogi in meditation suddenly open their eyes to find themselves sitting in a different reality. Celts call that the other world but it is not somewhere you must travel to it is the reality beneath your reality.

 

[Awani]

If reality was an illusion jumping off a building wouldn't result in you being splatted on the floor.

Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

 

[JDP]

Don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion.

Don't let the delusion that reality is supposedly a delusion confuse you regarding the reality of reality. If not, then put your beliefs to the test by jumping off of the top of a tall building, as suggested above. My "prediction" based on that reality: 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure you will die.

 

[Luxus]

Does past, present and future all exist right here now, simultaneously occurring but in different layers of space?

 

[Awani]

Don't let the delusion that reality is supposedly a delusion confuse you regarding the reality of reality. If not, then put your beliefs to the test by jumping off of the top of a tall building, as suggested above. My "prediction" based on that reality: 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure you will die.

Your reply is like reading a reply to a comment about horses, but your reply has to do with ice cream.

I'm sorry, but you clearly do not understand the phrase and I shall not explain it any further. Let's call it a secret.

Does past, present and future all exist right here now, simultaneously occurring but in different layers of space?

There is only the now... although the future has already happened.

 

[JDP]

Your reply is like reading a reply to a comment about horses, but your reply has to do with ice cream.

I'm sorry, but you clearly do not understand the phrase and I shall not explain it any further. Let's call it a secret.

I beg to differ. The reply gets straight to the point, it does not beat around the bush. And we all know that the reason why all proponents of this absurd claim refuse to put their money where their mouths are is precisely because they know that reality is very real, and if they ever did such a crazy thing as jumping off of a building or cliff the outcome would be very predictable, which would not be the case if "reality is a delusion".

 

[Awani]

You are missing the point I made, and as I said I am not explaining it any further.

 

[Awani]

"People cannot be talked out of illusions." - Alan Watts

One could even say; you cannot talk yourself out of an illusion.

Direct experience is the only way. That is the Game. Who in their right mind turn on a Playstation, pop in a game and sit back and watch the start screen... and never picking up the controller? No one.

Yet in life, many do.

 

[Awani]

If everything is an eternal dream, everything is part of the dream... and even if the dreamer and the dream is the same... then we can still have a Big Bang. Because the Big Bang is part of the dream.

We can wake up from a dream within the dream, but we can never wake up from The Dream. We (not we as in Awani or you... but we as in anything that ever was)... we ARE the dream.

Waking up would mean the end of everything. Suicide. Stay asleep!

But wake up from "this" dream... in other words keep dreaming, but make it a lucid dream.

That's my outlook currently...

 

[Awani]

 

[Ghislain]

You can jump off a cliff, many people do it often, and as long as you follow the rules (the recipe) then
99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time you can survive.

 

[JDP]

You can jump off a cliff, many people do it often, and as long as you follow the rules (the recipe) then
99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time you can survive.

Nope, that's CHEATING the "experiment" designed to test these "reality of illusion" kooky theories. You are using a very real and tangible artificial device designed to be able to survive the 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% sure chance of death that such an action will bring forth, not the supposed Jedi-like powers of your mind. You might as well show us a picture of people bungee jumping. CHEATING!

 

[Awani]

The story of the World War II gunner who fell 22,000 feet without a parachute and lived

Vesna Vulovic, stewardess who survived 33,000ft fall

The man who fell 12,000 ft ... and survived

Skydiver survives 14,000 foot fall after his parachute and backup BOTH fail

It doesn't happen often, but it happens enough.

Luck, "god" listening to prayer... who knows... but NOTHING is set in stone... not even "sure death".

-------------------------------------------

However the debate about "jumping off a cliff" is a clear indication that you do not understand what is being discussed, nor will you ever unless you clear your mind from play school arguments. We are talking about something deeper, mystical and mind altering... not about jumping off a cliff. It would be like I was trying to tell you that alchemy is bullshit, because it is just chemistry for pseudo-chemists... which in many cases it is.

When people want to discuss ONE matter you jump in with your ideas. When people want to discuss the concepts of reality you jump in with your "jump off the cliff" angle.

Focus on your thing, and let others focus on theirs.

If everything is an eternal dream, everything is part of the dream... and even if the dreamer and the dream is the same... then we can still have a Big Bang. Because the Big Bang is part of the dream.

We can wake up from a dream within the dream, but we can never wake up from The Dream. We (not we as in Awani or you... but we as in anything that ever was)... we ARE the dream.

Waking up would mean the end of everything. Suicide. Stay asleep!

But wake up from "this" dream... in other words keep dreaming, but make it a lucid dream.

That's my outlook currently...

Why don't you give your spin on the above quote instead, and refrain from "jumping off cliff" arguments if you can.

 

[JDP]

The story of the World War II gunner who fell 22,000 feet without a parachute and lived

Vesna Vulovic, stewardess who survived 33,000ft fall

The man who fell 12,000 ft ... and survived

Skydiver survives 14,000 foot fall after his parachute and backup BOTH fail

It doesn't happen often, but it happens enough.

Luck, "god" listening to prayer... who knows... but NOTHING is set in stone... not even "sure death".

Those are indeed cases of incredible luck, they certainly don't happen often.

However the debate about "jumping off a cliff" is a clear indication that you do not understand what is being discussed, nor will you ever unless you clear your mind from play school arguments. We are talking about something deeper, mystical and mind altering... not about jumping off a cliff. It would be like I was trying to tell you that alchemy is bullshit, because it is just chemistry for pseudo-chemists... which in many cases it is.

It is you who doesn't quite understand it. "Jumping off a cliff" is a perfectly fitting experiment for the kind of bizarre claims you seem to believe in. If it is all an "illusion" then it should not be possible to predict the most likely outcome of such an action. Your Jedi-like reality-altering mind powers would change that reality and you would survive, and not by incredible one-of-a-kind luck, as in the above cited cases, but because you changed reality. It should also be repeatable. If we carried out the "experiment" again, you should be able to alter reality again and avoid the predictable outcome. Rest assured that reality is VERY real. Don't believe it? JUMP OFF A CLIFF. I dare you!

When people want to discuss ONE matter you jump in with your ideas. When people want to discuss the concepts of reality you jump in with your "jump off the cliff" angle.

Focus on your thing, and let others focus on theirs.

You still don't get it, do you? This is not a "my thing vs your thing", this is about THE EXACT SAME REALITY WE ALL LIVE IN, whether you like it or not. Your or mine "opinions" don't matter here. Reality doesn't care about them and it will continue to be what it always has been quite unworried by what we think of it. Reality is very democratic and egalitarian, it is the same for us all.

Why don't you give your spin on the above quote instead, and refrain from "jumping off cliff" arguments if you can.

Because unlike the "jumping off a cliff" arguments, the above is a bunch of nonsense that is happening in a dream-world setting, NOT in reality.

 

[Awani]

It is you who doesn't quite understand it. "Jumping off a cliff" is a perfectly fitting experiment for the kind of bizarre claims you seem to believe in. If it is all an "illusion" then it should not be possible to predict the most likely outcome of such an action.

Is every dream you ever have, every night, lucid? If not, why not?

Reality is very democratic and egalitarian, it is the same for us all.

Reality cannot be fully understood when inside it. Therefor reality is relative with similar rules, but since there are exceptions (like those survivors) nothing can be taken for granted.

...the above is a bunch of nonsense that is happening in a dream-world setting, NOT in reality.

You are aware that the scientific community is closer to my line of thinking, than yours... but I guess that makes sense since you believe in pseudo-chemistry... there is more mumbo-jumbo coming out your end than mine. LOL.

Besides it doesn't matter how many times I say it: the way you reply to my posts clearly indicate that you are not understanding what I am talking about... And frankly, it doesn't matter to me... but since you disagree with anything related to this thread, and I think by now we all know your stance, I suggest you stay away... or I am forced to spam every single thread you post in with comments like this: "no, that is wrong because that is pseudo-chemistry"

 

[JDP]

Is every dream you ever have, every night, lucid? If not, why not?

No, but that's why they are DREAMS. It's NOT real. Reality is always the same, every single day.

Reality cannot be fully understood when inside it. Therefor reality is relative with similar rules, but since there are exceptions (like those survivors) nothing can be taken for granted.

Reality can be fully understood, otherwise it would be impossible to predict a whole bunch of actions which invariably bring up the same results.

The cases of those survivors can be explained. The guy who fell from the downed WW2 bomber, for example, was incredibly lucky to have hit glass panels on the ceiling of the train station he fell on, which slowed down his fall and allowed him to survive the impact on the more solid surface.

You are aware that the scientific community is closer to my line of thinking, than yours... but I guess that makes sense since you believe in pseudo-chemistry... there is more mumbo-jumbo coming out your end than mine. LOL.

LOL! No friggin' way! The scientific community does NOT say anything of the sort like you claim.

Besides it doesn't matter how many times I say it: the way you reply to my posts clearly indicate that you are not understanding what I am talking about... And frankly, it doesn't matter to me... but since you disagree with anything related to this thread, and I think by now we all know your stance, I suggest you stay away... or I am forced to spam every single thread you post in with comments like this: "no, that is wrong because that is pseudo-chemistry"

But it is you who doesn't understand why the "jump off a cliff" example is perfectly to the point regarding all these bizarre question marks that you try to put on reality. If reality was an "illusion", then we would not all experience the same while doing something like the above suicidal action. Some of us would die, others would not (and I don't mean bizarre freak exceptions, but on a more regular basis.) It would depend on the "illusion" each person has of reality. Poppycock! And reality is the same not just for people, but for animals and plants, and even for inanimate objects that have no consciousness whatsoever (a monkey, a tree or a glass falling down a cliff will also suffer the exact same impact that we will.) That should tell you something. Reality cares nothing about what we think or wish. It just "is". There is no such "illusion" here. Don't believe me? JUMP OFF A CLIFF! 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% chance you will die. Reality at work, quite unhindered by your "it's just an illusion! it's just an illusion! it's just an illusion!" thoughts while you plummet down to your death.

 

[Awani]

If I had a penny every time someone told me to jump off a cliff I could hand out gold for free.

Also, you still don't get it: don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion

I am not saying what I say is true/fact... but it is what I think... I am not saying reality is not real... but I am also not saying that it is real... your constant argument about "jumping off a cliff" is ridiculous, because it does not even touch upon the topic I am putting forth. From my perspective you are "way off". You are stuck in a limited closed loop of perspective... within that "realm" what you say is true... but I am talking about the deep ocean... you are discussing the dew on a piece of grass.

 

[JDP]

If I had a penny every time someone told me to jump off a cliff I could hand out gold for free.

Also, you still don't get it: don’t let the delusion of reality confuse you regarding the reality of the illusion

I am not saying what I say is true/fact... but it is what I think... I am not saying reality is not real... but I am also not saying that it is real... your constant argument about "jumping off a cliff" is ridiculous, because it does not even touch upon the topic I am putting forth. From my perspective you are "way off". You are stuck in a limited closed loop of perspective... within that "realm" what you say is true... but I am talking about the deep ocean... you are discussing the dew on a piece of grass.

 

[Awani]

You'll see... eventually...

 

[Awani]

...DMT may be necessary for normal brain function. And normal brain function means normal consciousness. In other words, the brain appears to require an endogeneous psychedelic substance to maintain normal consciousness. - Rick Strassman, M.D.

If this is indeed the case then that means that "reality" is only different levels of trippin': awake, sleeping, dreaming, taking drugs, dancing, sex etc.

Just different kinds of trips, yet all dancing in the arena of DMT. That could be why, when taking DMT, it becomes such an intense experience, because it creates feedback. See this thread.

 

[black]

If this is indeed the case then that means that "reality" is only different levels of trippin': awake, sleeping, dreaming, taking drugs, dancing, sex etc.

Just different kinds of trips, yet all dancing in the arena of DMT. That could be why, when taking DMT, it becomes such an intense experience, because it creates feedback.

Conversely to this line of thought the DMT in our bodies may be there to
keep us in this state of illusion and only by removing it (the DMT) can we
lift the veil and find the True Reality.

Just a thought that crossed my mind.