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. The Philosopher's Matter

Vyacheslav

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"But the Savior (as our stone is sometimes called) was conceived a little differently! And he worked miracles.
The Virgin Mary bore from the Holy Spirit. As a result of the immaculate conception. A living material woman was fertilized (have mercy on me, Lord) By the Holy Spirit-the Father. Thus was the Savior conceived..

In my laboratory, I worked for a long time with mundane matters. Of course, worldly children of matter are born from their union. With ordinary properties. And so it should be...The Savior must be conceived in matter by the Holy Spirit. And then he will work miracles. This will be the matter."

...but I need help because I can't do it myself. Even knowing the supernatural fire (Holy Spirit).
...Even knowing the right matter and the secret of the first matter. It's all very, very simple.
 

Vyacheslav

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I don't understand how to make conception, although I understood the supernatural fire.
 

Andro

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I don't understand how to make conception, although I understood the supernatural fire.
The perhaps you should continue with the "simplicity" line of thought and you might arrive at "something" that is of both "natural" and "supernatural" birth (although everything is "natural", ultimately, even if it's beyond our senses and our capacities of reasoning).
 

Vyacheslav

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The perhaps you should continue with the "simplicity" line of thought and you might arrive at "something" that is of both "natural" and "supernatural" birth (although everything is "natural", ultimately, even if it's beyond our senses and our capacities of reasoning).

Oh, thank you. But I want to say that I'm too dumb. I'm thinking slowly. And I've read a lot less than any of you....it's true. I'm also too trusting and straightforward...What I know is that it is mainly the merits of people like you. Very smart people are sitting here. Perhaps I'm more of a Futurama Fry than a philosopher.) But I don't hide anything and write only the most valuable thoughts. That's all there is...I just didn't call supernatural fire, but it's a physical process. Well-known to everyone.
 

black

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Hello Green lion, I am intrigued to understand more about the concept of the black sun, among the few references in the alchemical literature that speaks of the black sun is "Putrifaction emblem of Philosophia Reformata (Johann Daniel Mylius)" and also in the Splendor Solis, however the meaning of these representations corresponds to putrefactio, so I would like you to explain how your concept of black sun (physical entity that emits "light") contrasts or they complement each other, finally in which other texts we can find information about the black sun, for study and better understanding of the concept, thank you
Hi Trip Trithemius

A few links Here and Also Here ... may help a little bit.

I may know more soon when I finish the book.
 

Kiorionis

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I don't understand how to make conception, although I understood the supernatural fire.

Conception in as simple of terms as possible: Male + Female = Child.

You need to find an appropriate Seed or Womb for your 'supernatural fire' to impregnate.
 

Andro

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Conception in as simple of terms as possible: Male + Female = Child.

Over-anthropomorphizing Alchemy, it's an actual thing :)

Asexual Reproduction

Asexual reproduction produces offspring that are genetically identical to the parent because the offspring are all clones of the original parent. This type of reproduction occurs in prokaryotic microorganisms (bacteria) and in some eukaryotic single-celled and multi-celled organisms. Animals may reproduce asexually through fission, budding, fragmentation, or parthenogenesis.

Fission

Fission, also called binary fission, occurs in prokaryotic microorganisms and in some invertebrate, multi-celled organisms. After a period of growth, an organism splits into two separate organisms. Some unicellular eukaryotic organisms undergo binary fission by mitosis. In other organisms, part of the individual separates, forming a second individual. This process occurs, for example, in many asteroid echinoderms through splitting of the central disk. Some sea anemones and some coral polyps also reproduce through fission.

figure-43-01-01.jpe


Fission: Coral polyps reproduce asexually by fission, where an organism splits into two separate organisms.

Budding

Budding is a form of asexual reproduction that results from the outgrowth of a part of a cell or body region leading to a separation from the original organism into two individuals. Budding occurs commonly in some invertebrate animals such as corals and hydras. In hydras, a bud forms that develops into an adult, which breaks away from the main body; whereas in coral budding, the bud does not detach and multiplies as part of a new colony.

SOURCE

Paracelsus said:
The white and the red do proceed out of one root, without any medium. It is dissolved by itself, coupled by itself, albifyes and rubifyes; is made saffrony and blackby itself, marries itself and conceives in itself:

It is therefore to be decocted, to be baked, to be fused, it ascends, and descends. All which Operations, are indeed [but] one Operation made by the fire alone.

SOURCE
 

Kiorionis

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I'll admit my perspective is anthropomorphized, but don't you think even in asexual reproduction there has to be some sort of inner "male and female" forces which produce the separate organism? I have a hard time believing that there is no polarity involved win reproduction, even in asexual reproduction.

The sentences previous to your Paracelsus' quote:

Moreover you are to note, that those common preparations of Geber, Albertus Magnus, Th. Aquinas, Rupescisca, Poli∣dorus, and such like, are nothing else but some particular Solutions, Sublimations and Calcinations, not at all pertaining to our Universal [work] which [work] doth want only the most secret fire of the Philosophers; Therefore the fire and Azoth may suffice thee; [And whereas] the Philosophers do make mention of some preparations, as of putrefaction, destillation, sublimation, calcination, coagulation, dealbation, rubification, ceration, fixation, &c. you are to understand, that in their Universal [work] Nature it self doth accomplish all the operations in the said matter, and not the workman, [and that] only in a Phi∣losophical Vessel, and with a such like fire, not a common fire.

Definitely seems to me that there are two things in the actual work. Azoth and Fire, or Fire and Vessel, or the White and Red. I'm open to them being one and the same thing.
 

Andro

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Anthropomorphizing refers mostly to the "Male & Female", "Bride & Groom", "King & Queen", etc... In Alchemy, this doesn't go beyond superficially allegorical.

There may occur functions akin to "Agent" & "Patient" throughout the Work, although those "roles" do inter-change at times, and are therefore not menial/fixed.

The "end result" should ideally lift the Veil of Duality from this whole polarity farce.
 

Kiorionis

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In my mind, Agent & Patient sounds like just another way of saying Male & Female haha

If a Universal Stone is the goal, then shouldn't it have to eventually, at some point, move down through polarity? Or is it, in your opinion, immune to this 'Veil of Duality'?

haha or are these types of questions irrelevant? :confused:
 

Merovee

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Andro, have you ever thought about which point of view the alchemists take in their works: the point of view of duality or that of the abolished duality? Couldn't a different point of view explain many things that seem strange to us in their works and allegories (like the seemingly arbitrary role reversal between Agent & Patient), what do you think?
 

Andro

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Questions leading to Answers leading to more Questions, etc...

Which one is "male" and which one is "female"? The "Question"? The "Answer"? Or are they "taking turns"?

As long as we are driven by "Questions", we are limited by the "Answers" we do (or don't) receive, and therefore remain imprisoned in Causality.

We cannot "abolish" that which has no inherent existence (or meaning). We can, however, realize the no-thing-ness of things.

Primordial Awareness/Sub-Stance has no "Polarity" and doesn't do Q&A.

We don't need to "turn on" the Sun, only remove the clouds.

This would be a good start.
 

Kibric

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In Alchemy, this doesn't go beyond*superficially*allegorical.
Nail on the head.
Philosophical male and female do not have genders.
There is one body with the illusion of duality or polarity, in that part is earth the other water but they are the same thing cohesivly at the same time. A hermafrodite philosophically.
A real world example of a philosophical hermafrodite is jelly or gum.
 

black

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HI Kiorionis

Definitely seems to me that there are two things in the actual work. Azoth and Fire, or Fire and Vessel, or the White and Red. I'm open to them being one and the same thing.

The more accepted Path that is mostly written about is the one with the male/female, agent/patient, king/queen, etc.

This is where the work is carried out with our two parts (Our Two Great Champions).

The other method that is rarely written about is what we can call the Androgyn Path,this is where we only work with one material.

These two paths cause so much confusion to those studying Alchemy as they are the Short Path and the Long Path. :)
 

Andro

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Andro, have you ever thought about which point of view the alchemists take in their works: the point of view of duality or that of the abolished duality? Couldn't a different point of view explain many things that seem strange to us in their works and allegories (like the seemingly arbitrary role reversal between Agent & Patient), what do you think?

Both.

At the Source (within the incommensurable, non-dimensional "Mirror-Plane"), our Sub-Stance is one & non-dual.

However, when manifested and made to appear in the dualistic realm/s (preferably as close as possible to the Veil), its rendering is dual, i.e. two-fold.

It seems that the "paradox" of the Universal Alchemical Elixir, is that it is a non-dualistic embodiment within dualistic reality, i.e. the initially dual expression of our manifest matter becomes again inseparably united with itself, once again "one thing", only in the realm of duality.

Now, according to some texts (I'm not there yet), when "multiplied" to the limit, the Alchemical Elixir will "disappear" from this plane of reality, i.e. "return" to it's primordial dwelling.
 

Merovee

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Exactly, both of them, that's what I think too.

I know what I said sounds a bit like a smart-ass, but maybe it's not so unimportant after all if you want to understand their writings properly.

It's been a while, but I remember, I just wanted to point out that the adepts possibly take a standpoint in which agent and patient are the same; when they say something, it can also mean the opposite. That is why they say it’s a water and it’s a fire or it’s a stone, and it’s not a stone etc. Therefore, the past one can also be the future one, and the future one the past one.

Examples to your last thought:
Cyliani: ... (the materia) becomes so subtle that at the last time... it has completely evaporated. Usually, one stops at the ninth time, then the matter is so volatile that it penetrates the glass at the slightest heat (The Unveiled Hermes, multiplication);

French manuscript, (17th century): ... provided you do not go further than the ninth multiplication, otherwise matter - now only pure fire - would fly away. (Key to the 12 Keys of Basil Valentinus, Eleventh Key);

It was a very well Buddhist brother who pointed this out to me: Absolute perfection, he said, means transcendence; should the stone actually reach this, you will no longer be able to perceive it.
 

elixirmixer

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One usually has to pass through many trials to arrive at such understanding.

I can't count how many times I passed over these messages in the last 7 or so years of being a member of this forum.

But it wasn't until I surrendered the majority of me being a dickhead, and began serving the poor, that any of them actually registered.

The art indeed protects itself. And I'm so grateful to finally be ready to join the club.

Thank you. To the members of this forum. My life has been hectic, and I haven't had time to do the study you all have, but I did take the time to study each of you.

And that, was enough.

Thank you. All.

You too Alfr. I spent 2 years meditating on the upcoming execution. But your words, and the comments that followed, have given me the strength I needed to press on.

I will do my best to honor ALL the expectations and desires of each of the members that have contributed to my realizations.
 

nav2010

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Hello everyone, Brigadoon has returned once more, this time it was only two years.
 

Lakshmana

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Hello everyone, Brigadoon has returned once more, this time it was only two years.

I tried to recreate your shrinking mass of ozone too many times stop larping lol

(he immediately removed his "mathematical" riddle)
 

nav2010

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I tried to recreate your shrinking mass of ozone too many times stop larping lol

(he immediately removed his "mathematical" riddle)

You can't isolate ozone on its own, it decomposes at room temperature to O2. You have to trap it and keep it there. Did you work out the riddle? It involves O3 also. Hope you copied it before I took it down.
 

Lakshmana

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I've tried many different configurations, If you want to talk about it we can call (pm me) otherwise I have better plans for now.
Ozone is interesting for sure It can create white powder materials out of metals and "m-state" concentrates like from water and air.
I have created white powder gold silver copper tin etc with ozone.
They look like goo and its a nice first step but ozone is not the only way to achieve that.

Trapping ozone Might be a ghetto way to make higher allotropes of ozone which are much more violent (and maybe even more stable) than the regular o3.
 

nav2010

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I've tried many different configurations, If you want to talk about it we can call (pm me) otherwise I have better plans for now.
Ozone is interesting for sure It can create white powder materials out of metals and "m-state" concentrates like from water and air.
I have created white powder gold silver copper tin etc with ozone.
They look like goo and its a nice first step but ozone is not the only way to achieve that.

Trapping ozone Might be a ghetto way to make higher allotropes of ozone which are much more violent (and maybe even more stable) than the regular o3.

Let me take a little time to think about your problems and to put something together for you. I'm not pm'ing, what will be said here is for all to see. No secrets. I might start a new thread which could be an interesting read for you as well as others. I have to think deep about what I'm going to write, it's a long story and I may need to summarise quite a bit otherwise it will take weeks to compose. It has to start at the beginning and be structured properly so you'll understand, I'm not in the habit of writing any kind of riddles or hocus pocus either or hiding anything. When it comes you'll get it straight. Give me till tomorrow to think about everything.
 

nav2010

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I'm going to put a thread up called 'Nickel and oxygen and the shelf of instability'. Please read.