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LeoRetilus

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Mutus Liber...cover Jacobs ladder...Jacob is patient, dew of heaven from bible verse is agent.

Jacobs tricks his father into thinking he is Esua but later flees and wrestles Esua's guardian angel Samuel!

But in backstory, Jacob and Esua struck a deal...Esua trades his birthright to Jacob for......a bowl of lentil stew!

Lentils...legumes...why? Read! Study!! Pray! learn.Legge Ora et labora
 

alfr

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Hi dear Leo

now

THE BLACK STONE etc FLOATS AND DOES NOT HEAT FIRE

AND IF TRUE MAYBE THIS RESTRICT THE FIELD?

IF TRUE THAT? WHICH ARE IN THE ISLAN OF WHAT SO COULD BE COMPOSED

I CITE HERE FROM A SEARCH on black stone characteristics in Islam found that I translated with google in English
.................................................. ...........
there is only one Stone on earth that floats on water. It is the Black Stone found in the southeast corner of the Sacred Ka'bah in the shrine of Mecca al-Mukarramah. Jalal al-Suyuti said: When al-Muti 'Lillah bought the Black Stone from Abu Tahir al-Qarmati, the hadith scholar' Abd-Allah ibn 'Ukaym went and said: "We have two marks of our stone: it floats on the water and does not heat up in the fire. "Then he brought a stone that had been smeared and wrapped in brocade to make him believe it was the Black Stone. They put it on the water and it sank; then they put it on the fire and it split. Then he brought another stone and did the same to it, and the same things happened. Then they brought the Black Stone and put it on the water, and it floated; later they put it on the fire and it did not heat up. 'Abd-Allah said: "This is our Stone." Abu Tahir al-Qarmati was surprised by this and said, "How did you know?" 'Abd-Allah said: "It has been narrated that the Messenger of Allah sas (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) gave:" The Black Stone is the right hand of Allah on His land. She will come on the Day of Resurrection with a language with which she will testify about those who have kissed her in sincerity or not. It does not sink in water and does not heat up in the fire ... '"The Black Stone is the point where the tawas begins, southeast of the Holy Ka'bah. It was originally one of the precious stones of Paradise. Its original color is maqam white (Maqam Ibrahim). It is the place where tears should be shed, and where du'a are answered. It is Sunnah to touch and kiss her. It is the right hand of Allah on His land in the sense that it is the place where a man renews his covenant with Allah and his repentance. On the Day of Resurrection she will testify for all who touch her. Who takes an oath while touching it is like touching the Hand of the Merciful, and touching it cancels sins. It is the place touched by the mouths of the Prophets, the upright and pilgrims who perform the Hajj and 'Umra and visit the holy places.
.................................................. ............................
I CITE OTHER INDICATIONS ON CIO FROM WIKI that I trdotto with google in English
.................................................. ......
A significant clue to its nature is provided by an account of the recovery of the stone in 951 AD, after it had been stolen 21 years earlier; according to a chronicler, the Stone was identified by its ability to float in water. If this account is accurate, it would rule out the Black Stone being an agate, a basalt lava or a stone meteorite, although it would be compatible with being glass or pumice.
.................................................. ..................
SO IF TRUE WHAT IS THE BLACK STONE COMPOSED OF ??? a black lava pumice ?? an aerolite that transformed into floating stone (similar to lava pumice perhaps) and thus transformed with the enormous fusion it underwent and entered our atmosphere?
or what ??

my best regard
.........................................
ps
for lentils and leguni etc if not only mere symbols and on this we will make hypotheses on their use and their effects etc
but this we will assume later

because the black stone The Stone that fell from heaven, the astrogalus! The baetylus! The basket of bacchus in which ... the most curious of stones was closedupe are too serious and interesting argonent and they must treat them here absolutely separately and without any hilarity


::::::::::::::::::::::here original in italy::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.

Hi dear Leo LA PIETRA NERA GALLEGGIA E NON SCALDA AL FUOCO

E SE VERO FORSE CIO RESTRINGE IL CAMPO ?

SE VERO CIO? CHE AFFERNANO NELL'ISLAN DI COSA DUNQUE POTREBBE ESSERE COMPOSTA

CITO QUI DA PARTE UNA RICERCA su pietra nera caratteristiche in islam trovata che ho tradotto con google in inglese

there is only one Stone on earth that floats on water. It is the Black Stone found in the southeast corner of the Sacred Ka'bah in the shrine of Mecca al-Mukarramah. Jalal al-Suyuti said: When al-Muti 'Lillah bought the Black Stone from Abu Tahir al-Qarmati, the hadith scholar' Abd-Allah ibn 'Ukaym went and said: "We have two marks of our stone: it floats on the water and does not heat up in the fire. " Then he brought a stone that had been smeared and wrapped in brocade to make him believe it was the Black Stone. They put it on the water and it sank; then they put it on the fire and it split. Then he brought another stone and did the same to it, and the same things happened. Then they brought the Black Stone and put it on the water, and it floated; later they put it on the fire and it did not heat up. 'Abd-Allah said: "This is our Stone." Abu Tahir al-Qarmati was surprised by this and said, "How did you know?" 'Abd-Allah said: "It has been narrated that the Messenger of Allah sas (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) gave:" The Black Stone is the right hand of Allah on His land. She will come on the Day of Resurrection with a language with which she will testify about those who have kissed her in sincerity or not. It does not sink in water and does not heat up in the fire ... '"The Black Stone is the point where the tawas begins, southeast of the Holy Ka'bah. It was originally one of the precious stones of Paradise. Its original color is maqam white (Maqam Ibrahim). It is the place where tears should be shed, and where du'a are answered. It is Sunnah to touch and kiss her. It is the right hand of Allah on His land in the sense that it is the place where a man renews his covenant with Allah and his repentance. On the Day of Resurrection she will testify for all who touch her. Who takes an oath while touching it is like touching the Hand of the Merciful, and touching it cancels sins. It is the place touched by the mouths of the Prophets, the upright and pilgrims who perform the Hajj and 'Umra and visit the holy places. Glory to Allah the Almighty.

CITO ALTRE INDICAZIONI SU CIO DA WIKI che ho trdotto con google in inglese

A significant clue to its nature is provided by an account of the recovery of the stone in 951 AD, after it had been stolen 21 years earlier; according to a chronicler, the Stone was identified by its ability to float in water. If this account is accurate, it would rule out the Black Stone being an agate, a basalt lava or a stone meteorite, although it would be compatible with being glass or pumice.

DUNQUE SE VERO DI COSA è COMPOSTA LA PIETRA NERA ??? un ponice lavico nero ?? un aerolito frasformatosi in pietra galleggiante ( similare a pomice lavico forse) e trasformatosi cosi con la enorme fusione subita con entrata in nostra atmosfera ?
o cosa ??

my best regard
........................................................................
ps
per lenticchie e leguni etc se non solo meri simbolisni e su cio faremo ipotesi su uso cibarsi di essi e effetti di loro etc ma cio lo ipotizzeremo dopo

perche la pietra nera The Stone that fell from heaven, the astrogalus! The baetylus! The basket of bacchus in which...the most curious of stones was closedupe sono un argonento troppo seri e interessanti ed essi bidogna trattarli qui assolutamente a parte e senza nessuna ilarita
 

LeoRetilus

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Hi dear Leo

now

THE BLACK STONE etc FLOATS AND DOES NOT HEAT FIRE

AND IF TRUE MAYBE THIS RESTRICT THE FIELD?

IF TRUE THAT? WHICH ARE IN THE ISLAN OF WHAT SO COULD BE COMPOSED

I CITE HERE FROM A SEARCH on black stone characteristics in Islam found that I translated with google in English
.................................................. ...........
there is only one Stone on earth that floats on water. It is the Black Stone found in the southeast corner of the Sacred Ka'bah in the shrine of Mecca al-Mukarramah. Jalal al-Suyuti said: When al-Muti 'Lillah bought the Black Stone from Abu Tahir al-Qarmati, the hadith scholar' Abd-Allah ibn 'Ukaym went and said: "We have two marks of our stone: it floats on the water and does not heat up in the fire. "Then he brought a stone that had been smeared and wrapped in brocade to make him believe it was the Black Stone. They put it on the water and it sank; then they put it on the fire and it split. Then he brought another stone and did the same to it, and the same things happened. Then they brought the Black Stone and put it on the water, and it floated; later they put it on the fire and it did not heat up. 'Abd-Allah said: "This is our Stone." Abu Tahir al-Qarmati was surprised by this and said, "How did you know?" 'Abd-Allah said: "It has been narrated that the Messenger of Allah sas (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) gave:" The Black Stone is the right hand of Allah on His land. She will come on the Day of Resurrection with a language with which she will testify about those who have kissed her in sincerity or not. It does not sink in water and does not heat up in the fire ... '"The Black Stone is the point where the tawas begins, southeast of the Holy Ka'bah. It was originally one of the precious stones of Paradise. Its original color is maqam white (Maqam Ibrahim). It is the place where tears should be shed, and where du'a are answered. It is Sunnah to touch and kiss her. It is the right hand of Allah on His land in the sense that it is the place where a man renews his covenant with Allah and his repentance. On the Day of Resurrection she will testify for all who touch her. Who takes an oath while touching it is like touching the Hand of the Merciful, and touching it cancels sins. It is the place touched by the mouths of the Prophets, the upright and pilgrims who perform the Hajj and 'Umra and visit the holy places.
.................................................. ............................
I CITE OTHER INDICATIONS ON CIO FROM WIKI that I trdotto with google in English
.................................................. ......
A significant clue to its nature is provided by an account of the recovery of the stone in 951 AD, after it had been stolen 21 years earlier; according to a chronicler, the Stone was identified by its ability to float in water. If this account is accurate, it would rule out the Black Stone being an agate, a basalt lava or a stone meteorite, although it would be compatible with being glass or pumice.
.................................................. ..................
SO IF TRUE WHAT IS THE BLACK STONE COMPOSED OF ??? a black lava pumice ?? an aerolite that transformed into floating stone (similar to lava pumice perhaps) and thus transformed with the enormous fusion it underwent and entered our atmosphere?
or what ??

my best regard
.........................................
ps
for lentils and leguni etc if not only mere symbols and on this we will make hypotheses on their use and their effects etc
but this we will assume later

because the black stone The Stone that fell from heaven, the astrogalus! The baetylus! The basket of bacchus in which ... the most curious of stones was closedupe are too serious and interesting argonent and they must treat them here absolutely separately and without any hilarity


::::::::::::::::::::::here original in italy::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.

Hi dear Leo LA PIETRA NERA GALLEGGIA E NON SCALDA AL FUOCO

E SE VERO FORSE CIO RESTRINGE IL CAMPO ?

SE VERO CIO? CHE AFFERNANO NELL'ISLAN DI COSA DUNQUE POTREBBE ESSERE COMPOSTA

CITO QUI DA PARTE UNA RICERCA su pietra nera caratteristiche in islam trovata che ho tradotto con google in inglese

there is only one Stone on earth that floats on water. It is the Black Stone found in the southeast corner of the Sacred Ka'bah in the shrine of Mecca al-Mukarramah. Jalal al-Suyuti said: When al-Muti 'Lillah bought the Black Stone from Abu Tahir al-Qarmati, the hadith scholar' Abd-Allah ibn 'Ukaym went and said: "We have two marks of our stone: it floats on the water and does not heat up in the fire. " Then he brought a stone that had been smeared and wrapped in brocade to make him believe it was the Black Stone. They put it on the water and it sank; then they put it on the fire and it split. Then he brought another stone and did the same to it, and the same things happened. Then they brought the Black Stone and put it on the water, and it floated; later they put it on the fire and it did not heat up. 'Abd-Allah said: "This is our Stone." Abu Tahir al-Qarmati was surprised by this and said, "How did you know?" 'Abd-Allah said: "It has been narrated that the Messenger of Allah sas (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) gave:" The Black Stone is the right hand of Allah on His land. She will come on the Day of Resurrection with a language with which she will testify about those who have kissed her in sincerity or not. It does not sink in water and does not heat up in the fire ... '"The Black Stone is the point where the tawas begins, southeast of the Holy Ka'bah. It was originally one of the precious stones of Paradise. Its original color is maqam white (Maqam Ibrahim). It is the place where tears should be shed, and where du'a are answered. It is Sunnah to touch and kiss her. It is the right hand of Allah on His land in the sense that it is the place where a man renews his covenant with Allah and his repentance. On the Day of Resurrection she will testify for all who touch her. Who takes an oath while touching it is like touching the Hand of the Merciful, and touching it cancels sins. It is the place touched by the mouths of the Prophets, the upright and pilgrims who perform the Hajj and 'Umra and visit the holy places. Glory to Allah the Almighty.

CITO ALTRE INDICAZIONI SU CIO DA WIKI che ho trdotto con google in inglese

A significant clue to its nature is provided by an account of the recovery of the stone in 951 AD, after it had been stolen 21 years earlier; according to a chronicler, the Stone was identified by its ability to float in water. If this account is accurate, it would rule out the Black Stone being an agate, a basalt lava or a stone meteorite, although it would be compatible with being glass or pumice.

DUNQUE SE VERO DI COSA è COMPOSTA LA PIETRA NERA ??? un ponice lavico nero ?? un aerolito frasformatosi in pietra galleggiante ( similare a pomice lavico forse) e trasformatosi cosi con la enorme fusione subita con entrata in nostra atmosfera ?
o cosa ??

my best regard
........................................................................
ps
per lenticchie e leguni etc se non solo meri simbolisni e su cio faremo ipotesi su uso cibarsi di essi e effetti di loro etc ma cio lo ipotizzeremo dopo

perche la pietra nera The Stone that fell from heaven, the astrogalus! The baetylus! The basket of bacchus in which...the most curious of stones was closedupe sono un argonento troppo seri e interessanti ed essi bidogna trattarli qui assolutamente a parte e senza nessuna ilarita

Alfr I wasnt sure how to respond to this so here goes ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU

If she weighs the same as a duck, then logically shes a witch....lol
 

LeoRetilus

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Alfr, here I wrote this under the pen name rogerc in march 2012 on the Thread:" The Real of Secret of The Work Is"

All through the Bible allusions are made to this rejected "Stone." Moses in his Song alludes to it. Job speaks of it. Also David, Solomon, Isaiah and Zechariah. It is also mentioned by the apostles in the New Testament, who in some vague, mysterious way, connect the Stone with Christ and his appearing.
Even the Mohammedans preserve a record of the tradition in Heliogablus (the Sun-Moon), a Black Stone which hangs suspended in the mosque at Mecca. The tradition is that this Stone fell from heaven in the desert of Arabia, and was found by Mohammed, who brought it to Mecca, where it has since remained, an object of awe and reverence.
We ourselves spent many years, wandering in many places, to find out the meaning of this strange legend, feeling that it must be a key to deeper mysteries, and at last we unearthed it in conversation with the spirit of a very old and learned Arab, who informed us that the Black Stone was originally formed of the interior essence of the leaves of the palm, with other leaves and grasses, which is why it was called by the singular name, "Heliogabalus," or "Sun-Moon stone," these things growing and thriving under influence of the heavenly luminaries.
How it became reduced to the form of a Black Stone was a very great mystery, which could be solved only by the two sole inhabitants of the desert, the camel and its rider. First the camel ate the vegetation, which in its series of stomachs passed through a peculiar chemical transformation or reduction, into the form of a stone. The virtue of this stone was revealed to Mohammed in a dream, wherein the Angel of the Lord descended, and, taking a piece of this Stone, burned it upon live coals until it became outwardly black, but interiorly resplendently white. Whereupon Mohammed rejoiced exceedingly, realizing that he held within his possession the Pearl of Greatest Price. Afterwards this discovery became the chief source of wealth to the Mohammedans, so that really it is little wonder that they still revere Heliogabalus, and look to it as a source of miraculous endowment, refusing to disturb the gold of the mines, which is believed to belong to Mohammed, and will be claimed by him on his return to earth.
The significance of this Stone is as utterly lost to the modern Muslim as to the modern Christian, both of whom have buried the true doctrine of the Stone in the rubbish of religious personalizations, itself a form of the grossest idolatry, although the devotees of either sect pride themselves upon being the only "true worshippers."

It is amazing really that I myself copied that and that it took me 7 years to realize it and really heres why...when Fulcanelli mentions several times the palm tree and the story of the Holy family taking shelter under the tree it became readily apparent from this vantage point as well...I am reluctant to share it because for me it is very personal and between I and my Reedemer and my Father Christ himself who is my dad, it is one of the most beautiful and cherished of interactons between us and I can't really ever relay the story without ending in tears...ever:

And it came to pass on the third day of their journey, while they were walking, that the blessed Mary was fatigued by the excessive heat of the sun in the desert; and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: Let me rest a little under the shade of this tree. Joseph therefore made haste, and led her to the palm, and made her come down from her beast. And as the blessed Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it full of fruit, and said to Joseph: I wish it were possible to get some of the fruit of this palm. And Joseph said to her: I wonder that thou sayest this, when thou seest how high the palm tree is; and that thou thinkest of eating of its fruit. I am thinking more of the want of water, because the skins are now empty, and we have none wherewith to refresh ourselves and our cattle. Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, reposing in the bosom of His mother, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and refresh my mother with thy fruit. And immediately at these words the palm bent its top down to the very feet of the blessed Mary; and they gathered from it fruit, with which they were all refreshed. And after they had gathered all its fruit, it remained bent down, waiting the order to rise from Him who bad commanded it to stoop. Then Jesus said to it: Raise thyself, O palm tree, and be strong, and be the companion of my trees, which are in the paradise of my Father; and open from thy roots a vein of water which has been hid in the earth, and let the waters flow, so that we may be satisfied from thee. And it rose up immediately, and at its root there began to come forth a spring of water exceedingly clear and cool and sparkling. And when they saw the spring of water, they rejoiced with great joy, and were satisfied, themselves and all their cattle and their beasts. Wherefore they gave thanks to God.”

The story continues that upon these events...that upon mention of Christ ordering the palm to be a companion tree in Paradise that an angel descended from Heaven and came to earth to collect the palm tree. Hence the cicle is completed when the angel tells Mohammed that the camel eats the palm and natures digestion takes place so henceforth is why ....the stone fell from heaven.....well for me perhaps because it was the day my eyes were opened and I finally had the true epiphany.

The palm and date trees, of the same family, were known to the Greeks under the name
of [*425-1] (phoenix, and Phoenix in Latin) which is our hermetic phoenix; they
represent the two magisteries and their results, the two white and red stones, which
partake of one and the same nature included in the cabalistic denomination of Phoenix.
As for the fig tree occupying the center of the composition, it indicates the mineral
substance out of which the philosophers draw the elements of the miraculous rebirth of
the Phoenix, and it is this work of rebirth as a whole which constitutes what is commonly
referred to as the Great Work.
According to the apocryphal Gospels it was a fig or sycamore fig tree (a.k.a. the fig tree
of the Pharoah) which had the honor of sheltering the Holy Family during their flight to
Egypt, of nourishing them with its fruit and of quenching their thirst, thanks to the clear
and fresh water that the child Jesus had drawn out from between its roots (1). Fig tree in
Greek is [*426-1] (suke), from [*426-2] (sukon), fig, a word frequently used for [*426-3]
(kusthos), with the root [*426-4] (kuo), to carry in the womb, to contain: it is the Virgin
Mother who bears the child, and the alchemical emblem of the passive, chaotic, aquatic,
and cold substance, the matrix and vehicle of the spirit incarnate. Sozomeme, a 4th
century author, asserts that the tree of Hermopolis which bowed before the infant Jesus
was called Persea (Hist. Eccl. Lib. V, ch. 21). It is the name of the balanus (Balanites
Aegyptiaca), a shrub from Egypt and Arabia, a kind of oak, called by the Greeks [*426-5]
(balanos), acorn, a word by which they also called the myrobalan, fruit of the myrobalan
tree. These diverse elements are perfectly related to the subject of the sages and the
technique of the ars brevis that Jacques Coeur seems to have practic
- Fulcanelli Dwellings of The Philosophers

Regards,

Leo

But as for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and he will stand upon the earth at last.- Job 19:25
 

Andro

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The Cube at the bottom reminds me of the "Cube" from Mecca...

1411134753055.jpg


And this reminds me of the "Palm" tree:

5390399517_b014b85dd5_b.jpg


:cool:
 

Argento Vivo

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Hi to all,

First the camel ate the vegetation, which in its series of stomachs passed through a peculiar chemical transformation or reduction, into the form of a stone. The virtue of this stone was revealed to Mohammed in a dream, wherein the Angel of the Lord descended, and, taking a piece of this Stone, burned it upon live coals until it became outwardly black, but interiorly resplendently white.

Camel dung?

Quuote Pseudo-Lully:

Of Fire:

Although in our books we have dealt perfectly with three types of fire, namely the natural, the connatural and the counter-nature, and with several other modalities of our fire, nevertheless we want by this to mean a fire composed of different things, and it is a secret very great is to come to the knowledge of this fire, because it is not human, but angelic. This celestial gift must be revealed to you, but for fear that the curse and the execration of the Philosophers, which they left to their successors, will not be thrown upon us, we pray to God that the treasure of our secret Fire cannot pass through and reach hands of the Sages, and not of others.

O Sons of Wisdom, lend ear to understand and understand our composite Fire, which will be of two things: know that the Creator of all things has created, among others, two things suitable for this fire, that is, horse fimo and the quicklime, the composition of which causes our Fire, the nature of which is the following: take from the belly of the Horse - that is to say the well digested horse manure - one part, of the pure quicklime, another part. Having composed these things, kneaded together and placed in our stove, and having placed our vessel containing the matter of our Stone, and having closed the oven well on each side, you will then have the divine fire without light and without coal, placed in its Cooker; and it could not be otherwise, having everything he needs.

It comes to my minnd the "Lutum sapientie" which typically was based upon egg-shells-calcined/lime with horse manure and horse tail hairs and the like... which was used to close the vessels before distillation/sublimation. (and still in spagyrics is better than teflon and likes, but today kaolin or fire resistant clays are used)

(PPS: Let's check also indian "Panchagayam" aka "cowpathy" for curiosity)

a.v.
 

LeoRetilus

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The Cube at the bottom reminds me of the "Cube" from Mecca...

1411134753055.jpg


And this reminds me of the "Palm" tree:

5390399517_b014b85dd5_b.jpg


:cool:

Yes, the mine of Saturn...and hence the, "approximation" with the oak tree.
 

Florius Frammel

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In alchemy the tree symbol (oak or palm, or other) most likely stands for one or both trees in the middle of the garden of Eden. Especially the oak tree had been a symbol for Mary and Jesus since the middle ages (Before it was Thor's/Zeus' tree).

The cube is a symbol for the physical world, or the salt, or the ordinary starting matter, or the alchemist. It is the starting point of the great work. Saturn points there as this greek deity was usually identified with the gnostic Demiurg/Jaldabaoth/Devil, who according to some ancient gnostics is said to be responsible for the physical world to even exist.

The way is always starting via Diana/Isis. Because as a deity of the moon and the night, she stands for the opposite of the physical manifest realm. She points the way to go. In Christian alchemy she got replaced by Mary. The dew falls in the night and in former times they couldn't explain it's formation out of "nothing".

Dew is condensation of water, which can commonly be observed when breathing in winter.

"In the beginning, there was the word".

To say a word, you also need to breathe. The breathe of god is the holy spirit.

In Christian alchemical terms therefore the Source is Sophia/Isis/Mary who breathes out the holy spirit to be received by the cube (the son). This is the alchemical explanation of the holy trinity.

Of course some replace Mary/Sophia/Isis with another equivalent female deity, or with the one and only supergod (some call him the one, or zero, or father).

For the spiritual alchemist it means to leave the realm of thought and go into the dark realm of Isis (beyond what Jung called "Shadow", or personal unconscious) to then automatically receive the lunar humidity as a seed. This seed subsequently leads to son which is then reborn in the alchemists soul.

The terms get complicated of course, because Mary/Isis/Sophia stands also for the alchemist's soul as the vessel and thus a certain state of the starting matter.

Some also say there is no holy ghost and it's all in the person's mind.

All views are valid. That's why the teachings of the trinity are considered to be so complicated.
 

LeoRetilus

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The Cube at the bottom reminds me of the "Cube" from Mecca...

1411134753055.jpg


And this reminds me of the "Palm" tree:

5390399517_b014b85dd5_b.jpg


:cool:

The Colossus of Nebacunezzar....The Clay of The Wise
 

LeoRetilus

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For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.

16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

17 How precious to me are your thoughts,[a] God!
How vast is the sum of them!

But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine

My right hand:
2VXPqB.jpg



20201001-185543.2VXPqB



You have placed your very signature upon me Lord, you have called me by the name that you have given me, Leo Retilus, you have summoned me once again to that secret place, I am yours!

Mutus_Liber_cover.jpg


Who am I O Lord that you should place your thoughts upon me? I am wonderfully and fearfully made. Like an image of you O Lord, dressed and arrived to humbly serve.

You have made unto me an image of Salt and Light and have placed me upon the mantle of your Glory!
You have made my soul of the light of Heaven at midday!
 
Last edited:

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The cube is a symbol for the physical world,
[snip]
Of course some replace Mary/Sophia/Isis with another equivalent female deity, or with the one and only supergod (some call him the one, or zero, or father).

Isis gives a bunch of her names in The Golden Ass. Whatever you call it, its the "queen of heaven of antiquity". There's no straight line from Isis to Mary. It goes through Judaism first, where the correspondence is Shekhinah. The 10th sefirah is also known as Malkuth, meaning Kingdom - as you say above, the phyiscal world. Manifest creation. As Binah (in partnership with Hokhmah) "gives birth" to the lower seven sefirot (roughly analogous to the planets/metals), Shekhinah/Malkuth gives birth to the physical world. I know Isis (particularly as the Rose) is interpreted the same way.

Malkuth is also often associated with the Cube. Which is the culmination of the evolution of "dimenions" from point-line-shape -> "solid, body, or "corpus".

Also, the individual's soul is a reflection of the world soul. Including the division into "male and female" halves.
 
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Florius Frammel

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Isis gives a bunch of her names in The Golden Ass.

This is a very good and special book that explains a lot of symbols!

Whatever you call it, its the "queen of heaven of antiquity". There's no straight line from Isis to Mary. It goes through Judaism first, where the correspondence is Shekhinah. The 10th sefirah is also known as Malkuth, meaning Kingdom - as you say above, the phyiscal world. Manifest creation. As Binah (in partnership with Hokhmah) "gives birth" to the lower seven sefirot (roughly analogous to the planets/metals), Shekhinah/Malkuth gives birth to the physical world. I know Isis (particularly as the Rose) is interpreted the same way.

Malkuth is also often associated with the Cube. Which is the culmination of the evolution of "dimenions" from point-line-shape -> "solid, body, or "corpus".

That's right. The form is different, but the underlying archetype is present in probably all systems. Sorry for having skipped the Jewish branch. Strictly chronologically however this form of Jewish Kabala reaches back to medieval times (please correct me if I'm wrong), so this Jewish interpretation might be younger than Mary (which wouldn't diminish it of course).

One of her first emanations in the old kingdom of Egypt was the goddess Bastet (daughter of Atum/Ra, mother of Anubis). She looks like a cat and therefore this might be the true answer to Fulcanelli's rhetorical question "why the Egyptians loved the cat".

The festivals to her honour were quite similar to the bacchanalians of ancient Rome, or the more modern carnival.

Bastet.svg


Also, the individual's soul is a reflection of the world soul. Including the division into "male and female" halves.

Imo it's not truly dualistic. Only at a lower level. The strange incestuous relationship between Osiris/Isis/Horus and/or God/Mary/Christ(who according to the trinity is god) is an indicator imo.

The jewish cabala might have its correspondence in the top part of the Ez Chaim (Tree of Life which was the topic earlier in this thread) where the first binary forms of Binah and Chochma are "crowned" by Kether.

Of course the key lies in the soul(s), good point!

The terms "god" and "soul" - among others- however can have a whole lot of different meanings and especially nowadays they are often negatively connoted with some people which can make discussions a bit hard. In the end it's just the insufficiency of words and terms and probably the main reason why these topics usually are expressed through (more or less) universal symbols that should not be treated like some kind of idols like the golden calf, or the image of a bearded old man, a corpse hanging on a cross, a cat, or anything like that, but rather for what it stands behind its appearance of form.
 
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vigilance

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That's right. The form is different, but the underlying archetype is present in probably all systems. Sorry for having skipped the Jewish branch. Strictly chronologically however this form of Jewish Kabala reaches back to medieval times (please correct me if I'm wrong), so this Jewish interpretation might be younger than Mary (which wouldn't diminish it of course).

The term "Shekhinah" is far from exclusive to the later Kabbalah, appearing in Rabbinic literature. (but she is often identified as the different "she/her"s in the old testament. The same with "Malkut" with the meaning of kingdom and symbolizing the material world. The only strictly "Kabbalistic" idea above is the attribution of Shekhinah/Malkut to the 10th sefirah. I see the line between what is properly considered Kabbalah and what came before as the appearance of the Sefer Bahir (the source for "Aesch Majim") around the end of the 12th century. This is when the sefirot are named, and given special attributes - or at least when we have written records of it. (the Zohar is much later) Before this I can distinguish little difference between the "Ten Sefirot out of nothingness" and the Decad, the 10 primordial emanations of the greeks. The earlier hekalot/merkaba traditions are not concerned with this.

My main point is, in the orthodoz literature about Mary, all this is lost. As you mention below, Mary herself is a confused combination of Mary the Mother and Mary the "sister in the community" and perhaps Bride. There is a connection with Mare, and the "Great sea" as with the other queens of heaven. And from that, Stella Maris. Which isn't always Venus. But much is lost. Although writing in the 2nd century, Apuleius himself skips both the hebrew and christian forms.

Since we're here now anyways, I'll ammend what I said in my previous reply and champion the hebrews a bit. My "cube as space" was a simplification. The greeks, in their 'elegance', used the tetrahedron as their default example of 3 dimensions. Its 4 points was the least work (it is constructed with 3 circles). The cube they used specifically as the symbol of the element of earth.

The idea of the "cube of space", believe directly and singularly derives from the Sefer Yetsirah, usually dated to the Talmudic period (although some would argue the "language" and content hints at an older origin). It's definitely post-Hellenization of the Jews, and is first appearance of the "10 sefirot". The first chapter deals with first, the 10, basic greek arithmetic with some verses I believe are only understood through the pythagorean tetractys, then the four elements (here, Spirit, Fire, Air, Water, with some corrupt versions seemingly trying to cram a description of "earth" in there for 5), and finally seemingly sixed sided description of "space". (after seperate "paragraphs"/verses for each of the 4 elements, 5-10 are run together as one:


[15]Five - he sealed above. He chose three simple letters and fixed them in his great name - YHW. And he sealed with them the six edges (of the universe), and turned upwards and sealed it with YHW.
Six - he sealed below. He turned downwards and sealed it with YWH.
Seven - he sealed the east. He turned in front and sealed it with HYW.
Eight - he sealed the west. He turned behind and sealed it with HWY.
Nine - he sealed the south. He turned to his right and sealed it with WYH.
Ten - he sealed the north. He turned to his left and sealed it with WHY.


I know you'll recognize von welling and I've posted hagelgans before:

O66jhJD.jpg


i9s6REV.jpg


This is always interpretated as 4 sides, top and bottom of the cube. I think in the Middle Ages the Yetsirah is well known, pretty near ubitiquitous among the "learned men" of the age. This description of the creation of space is in itself is a parallel cosmonological lesson, which would come after the simpler form - whereby God more or less "self creates", contracts itself to a point. From the point a the "ray of light" shines out in every direction "sealing" or "inscribing" the shape of creation to come. Which, agreeing with Plato, describes a circle (in 2D), or a sphere (in 3D). What is lost on practically everybody is that this describes another Art or Craft so very important to the Greeks - geometry, specifically the craft of the straight edge (ray) and compass (the circumference which the ray inscribes, equi-distant from the source of emanation). And covers the greek cosmonological "evolution of space" through the dimensions of point, line, shape, solid.

And from the original "seal", I extrapolate an extra lesson from the Yetsirah pattern, as I "imagine" sealing each direction, like the original:

JNkSmL8.jpg


And I end up with the proper geometric construction of the cube. The 7 points are the same for the star of david, the cube, the hexagon, and the "flower". Dealing in this language of symbols, it should be understood where you see one, any or all of the others may be implied, because they are analogs/isomorphisms of the same thing. This connects 4 (sides) 6 (faces) and 7 (points).


Imo it's not truly dualistic. Only at a lower level.

While I think I understand why you say this, literally, it's wrong. I think you're saying is that to you it seems that the soul or consciousness or pyschology or whatever comprises of more than two components. And I agree, sure. But only so much is "primary", everything else is secondary, itself comprised of "primary" elements in different mixtures and ratios. Think of everything we create and do with two options, 1 and 0. But I was only going by Plato, who was far from the first to talk about the two different motions, the visible evidence of the two halves of the "World Soul":

"Next he cleft the structure so formed lengthwise into two halves, and laying the two so as to meet in the centr"e in the shape of the letter X, he bent them into a circle and joined them, causing them to meet themselves and each other at a point opposite to that of their original contact : and he comprehended them in the motion that revolves uniformly on the same axis, and one of the circles he made exterior and one interior. The exterior motion he named the motion of the Same, the interior that of the Other."

But the way I understand it, God/Heaven is the beginning, in One, Unity, Monad. The first step away from this is the first division, 2. Then 3, 4, etc. From Unity -> Multiplicity/Differentiation. To "get to heaven" or to "know the divine", or the absolute reality you reverse the chain of creation, the last step of which, since it was the first step, the reunification/reconciling of the primary duality.

Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out,

“Hallelujah!
For the Lord our God
the Almighty reigns.
7 Let us rejoice and exult
and give him the glory,
for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
and his Bride has made herself ready;
8 it was granted her to clothe herself
with fine linen, bright and pure”—

9 And the angel said[a] to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

or if you wish,

Come to the Wedding!
You Are Cordially Invited to a Royal Wedding!
Today – today – today
is the wedding of the King.
If you are born for this,
Chosen by God for joy,
You may ascend the mount
Whereon three temples stand
And see the Thing yourself.
Take heed,
Observe yourself!
If you’re not clean enough,
The wedding can work ill.
Perjure here at your peril;
He who is light, beware!


Imo it's not truly dualistic. Only at a lower level. The strange incestuous relationship between Osiris/Isis/Horus and/or God/Mary/Christ(who according to the trinity is god) is an indicator imo.

I think it would be a good time to refer back to the VITRIOL image from the Azoth series that Andro posted. Whether the 3/7 division comes from Gnosticism or the Yetsirah I won't argue. But the outside three is basically the unity of opposites, leading to the "3rd", the son or "world". But that's an "abbreviation", skipping over the intermeditary "middle steps". In that image, the 7 steps in the middle. And there's the cube at the bottom, like I've shown above, with the points highlighted.

The Hokmah/Binah couple is reflected in Tiferet/Shekhinah. Jesus/Christ has its prototype (and understanding) in Enoch/Metatron. "Christ" is Metatron

This Father/Husband/Son and Mother/Bride/Daughter paradox runs throughout all egyptian religion, the hebrew, the gnostic. There's a deeper understanding, for the wise, I'm sure.


The jewish cabala might have its correspondence in the top part of the Ez Chaim (Tree of Life which was the topic earlier in this thread) where the first binary forms of Binah and Chochma are "crowned" by Kether.

The 3 supernals in general are known as "crowns", culiminating in Keter, and are often grouped as the "Godhead". (and the "7 spirits" are the lower seven sefirot). So the the "Wedding", the ascent to the mount with the 3 temples, is ascending to the Godhead. (you'll find plenty of hints of and actual references to the ascending/descending man in the Manifestoes. probably transmitted through Abulafia and Lull, but in general the merkaba mystics called themselves "those who ascend").

One of her first emanations in the old kingdom of Egypt was the goddess Bastet (daughter of Atum/Ra, mother of Anubis). She looks like a cat and therefore this might be the true answer to Fulcanelli's rhetorical question "why the Egyptians loved the cat".

Well here's where it gets tricky, especially where we apply our current knowledge of the older Egyptian periods. Because the Old Kingdom had been "dead" to them for thousands of years, and they could not read it. The best egyptology during the medieval and renaissance period was from "Greco", "Gnostic magical" and perhaps Coptic sources. We see Kircher grasping at straws.

Bastet actually dates from the Archaic period. I have no idea of her place in any kind of "complete world system" from this period, but in her earliest incarnations she was a (Sun) Lioness. She was later reduced to the cat-headed daughter of Ra and Isis, not very "primary" in the old kingdom at all. She becomes conflated with another old goddess, Wadjet, with her later association with the "Eye of Ra".

And here's where it gets very curious for me with all my Kabbalah.. the primary couple of the Ennead are Shu and.. usually "Tefnut". (And this is the version Shu doesn't create by himself through a masturbatory act.) While most people who will speak of Shu, talk in terms of Air/Wind, what's interesting is the actual meaning of the name. Shu (Egyptian šw, "emptiness" or "he who rises up"). This primordial "emptiness" reminds me of the Hebrew "Ayin", nothingness, and the "Ein" (Not) of "Ein Sof". I'll leave the relation of these concepts to "Keter" for readers to look up for themselves.

tefnut is not of much interest to me at this stage.. I prefer the old kingdom primodorial goddess Iusaset. Her name means "the great one who comes forth", and she was described as the "Grandmother of all the other deities" (powers). In this, she reminds me of Binah, who gives birth to the lower seven sefirot (powers) of the Tree of Life. Oh yeah, Iusaset's symbol was the acacia tree, known as the Tree of Life. The "coming forth" of Iusaset, and the "rising up" of Shu could be interpretated as "Emanation". (Wadjet also "comes forth", on December 25, obviously another reference to the strengthening sun after the Winter Solstice). Shu's "rising up" is connected to the appearance of the "Ben ben" from the primordial waters.

-------------

I remember an old emblem.. I doubt it's Kramer/Cramer.. but it's about the Cube, and it has a motto, to paraphrase... 'it doesn't matter which way you turn me, I remain the same". It's not close enough for me to find it again. It would be swell is someone could point me in the right direction.
 

Florius Frammel

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Hi Greg,

I'm sorry but I can't help you with that emblem. Your vast knowledge on jewish mystery schools is admirable and I see no reason to question it.

Maybe just two things in addition:
When writing about Bastet, I had the oldest version in mind which constituted of the cat and the (male) lion. Later the two aspects got separated according to archaeological findings and their interpretations.

Be it as it may and to connect it with the question raised by black in the other thread about particulars:

You can approach this topic from two sides.

1. Scholastic: think about it
2. Mystic: experience it

One guy who taught both ways excellently imo was the medieval Meister Eckhart and behind his particular christian terminology it is pretty universal. Once you get it, you can see the main thing in all other particulars and it is not important from which religion you start.
 

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Greg, FF - do you believe any of the the above can be useful to identify the "Philosopher's Matter" for the practicing lab alchemist?
 

Florius Frammel

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Greg, FF - do you believe any of the the above can be useful to identify the "Philosopher's Matter" for the practicing lab alchemist?

Of course!
This is basically the key to the language that for example Fulcanelli uses throughout both of his books. But not only Fulcanelli, but almost all the other authors of antiquity, medieval and early modern times used it.

"The alchemists are most clear when they write obscure."
 

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Greg, FF - do you believe any of the the above can be useful to identify the "Philosopher's Matter" for the practicing lab alchemist?

Nothing? Everything? I am utterly unqualified to comment on that, and I leave that up to others (i.e. you) to judge. Honestly, my "trigger" and focus of what I've added on was your post of the V.I.T.R.I.O.L image and mention of the cube, and Mecca. And at that point I refrained as perceiving it as too off topic. Then Florius responded heading entirely my direction and well...

That's where I came in. Of course, your question made me re-examine this. I guess my whole point is that I read the Vitriol of image as a description or blueprint or the "world system" as conceived of at the time. And that's what my whole perhaps off-topic contribution was centered around. the soul and ascent material related to the "Epiphany" mentions. Just now, on re-examination, I've gone back to the very beginning of the thread, for the first time:

"Our globe, reflection and mirror of the microcosm, is therefore nothing but a small part of the primordial Chaos, destined by divine will for elementary renewal in the three kingdoms, but which sets of mysterious circumstances have oriented and directed toward the mineral kingdom. Thus given form and specified, subjected to the laws ruling the evolution and the progression of minerals, this chaos, which has become a body, contains in a confused manner the purest seed and the closest substance there is to minerals and metals. The philosopher’s matter is therefore of mineral and metallic origin. Hence, one must only seek it in the mineral and metallic root, which, says, Basil Valentine in the book, The Twelve Keys, was reserved by the Creator and intended only for the generation of metals. Consequently, anyone who seeks the sacred stone of the philosophers with the hope of encountering this little world in substances alien to the mineral and metallic kingdoms, will never reach his goals. To turn the apprentice away from the path of error the ancient authors teach him to always follow nature. Because nature only acts within its own appropriate species, only develops and perfects itself within itself and by itself, free from any heterogeneous thing occurring to hinder its progress or to oppose the effects of its generating power. " - Fulcanelli: Dwellings of the Philosophers

This dwellings excerpt is absolutely a description of the world system. So unwittingly I actually went back to the beginning of the thread, discussing the primordial chaos, 4 elements, 7 metals, etc. And that's the VITRIOL image. I know nothing of the 3 alchemical kingdoms. My mention of 3 supernals/crowns/temples and even quoting the Chymical Wedding was completely coincidental.

Edit: Someone posted (elsewhere) the frontispiece of "Curiositez de la nature et de l'art sur la végétation" and it reminded me of Flamel/Abraham the Jew, so I ended up there. With some searching i see this has been alluded to earlier in the thread:

A-J: "Number 7"

"The first is prepared out of the Universal Chaos, the other from the Animal, Vegetable and Mineral. Particularly must you conform to my teaching, where I showed, how the Ancients therewith went to work. They have taken this fiery flying Spirit, and poured this on the Phyton, and so has it taken away from it the metallic nature, and has become a glutinous white water. With this have they further proceeded, and this Liquor they again poured on fresh Phyton, so has it also become a thick viscous water. Then have they taken the King, and dissolved it therein, then has it become red like to Blood. This Blood have they now also called the Red Lion, this have they fixed, and as I already taught you, augmented their work with this sloppy Phyton, and also found a blessed ending."

which by "the slaughter" corresponds to Flamel's "Fifth Leaf"

"On the last side of the fifth leaf there was a King, with a great Fauchion, who made to be killed in his presence by some Soldiers a great multitude of little Infants, whose Mothers wept at the feet of the unpitiful Soldiers the blood of which Infants was afterwards by other Soldiers gathered up, and put in a great vessel, wherein the Sun and the Moon came to bathe themselves. And because that this History did represent the more part of that of the Innocents slain by Herod, and that in this Book I learned the greatest part of the Art, this was one of the causes why I placed in their Church-yard these Hieroglyphic Symbols of this secret science. And thus you see that which was in the first five leaves. I will not represent unto you that which was written in good and intelligible Latin in all the other written leaves, for God would punish me; because I should commit a greater wickedness than he who (as it is said) wished that all the men of the World had but one head, that he might cut it off with one blow. Having with me, therefore, this fair book, I did nothing else day nor night but study upon it, understanding very well all the operations that it showed, but not knowing with what Matter I should begin, which made me very heavy and solitary, and caused me to fetch many a sigh. "
 
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vigilance

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I did a thread search on "Mother", and it seems no one has brought up the connection between "Matter" and "Mother" sharing the same roots in the latin Mater. it gets very interesting. It seems that to earlier lovers of wisdom, Matter also refers to "a mental act or course of thought:

"matter (n.)
c. 1200, materie, "the subject of a mental act or a course of thought, speech, or expression," from Anglo-French matere, Old French matere "subject, theme, topic; substance, content; character, education" (12c., Modern French matière) and directly from Latin materia "substance from which something is made," also "hard inner wood of a tree." According to de Vaan and Watkins, this is from mater "origin, source, mother" (see mother (n.1)). The sense developed and expanded in Latin in philosophy by influence of Greek hylē (see hylo-) "wood, firewood," in a general sense "material," used by Aristotle for "matter" in the philosophical sense.

The Latin word also is the source of Spanish, Portuguese, and Italian materia, Dutch, German, and Danish materie, vernacular Spanish madera, Portuguese madeira "wood" (compare Madeira). The Middle English word also sometimes was used specifically as "piece of wood."

From c. 1200 as "a subject of a literary work, content of what is written, main theme;" sense of "narrative, tale, story" is from c. 1300. Meaning "physical substance generally" is from mid-14c.; that of "substance of which some specific object is or may be composed" is attested from late 14c. Meaning "piece of business, affair, activity, situation; subject of debate or controversy, question under discussion" is from late 14c. In law, "something which is to be tried or proved," 1530s.

Matter of course "something expected" attested from 1739 (adjectival phrase matter-of-course "proceeding as a natural consequence" is by 1840). For that matter "as far as that goes, as far as that is concerned" is attested from 1670s. What is the matter "what concerns (someone), what is the cause of the difficulty" is attested from mid-15c., from matter in the sense of "circumstance or condition as affecting persons and things." To make no matter to "be no difference to" also is mid-15c., with matter in the meaning "importance, consequence."

A couple of obsolete usages of "Matter":

(obsolete) The essence; the pith; the embodiment.
(obsolete) Inducing cause or reason, especially of anything disagreeable or distressing.

The latin root:

māter f (genitive mātris); third declension

mother (female parent)
mother (source, origin)
matron of a house
honorific title
woman
nurse
motherland
maternity, motherhood

I believe "matrix" is also related.
 

LeoRetilus

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I did a thread search on "Mother", and it seems no one has brought up the connection between "Matter" and "Mother" sharing the same roots in the latin Mater. it gets very interesting. It seems that to earlier lovers of wisdom, Matter also refers to "a mental act or course of thought:



A couple of obsolete usages of "Matter":

(obsolete) The essence; the pith; the embodiment.
(obsolete) Inducing cause or reason, especially of anything disagreeable or distressing.

The latin root:

māter f (genitive mātris); third declension

mother (female parent)
mother (source, origin)
matron of a house
honorific title
woman
nurse
motherland
maternity, motherhood

I believe "matrix" is also related.

It is pretty obvious from your responses that you havent even read Dwellings and therfore not at all familar with the subject matter taken from context within the book of the "passage" that begun this thread years ago!

You are commenting on your own limited knowledge of alchemy, mostly esoteric and psycholgic, and not at all regarding that passage as it came from the lips of the master whom completed the great work and his admissions whether allegorical, phonetic cabala or practical, and sometimes scientific ....Fulcanelli's style!. It is why we begun this thread from a practical lab manner, to initially identify the. Philosophers matter.....
 

Florius Frammel

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It is pretty obvious from your responses that you havent even read Dwellings and therfore not at all familar with the subject matter taken from context with the book of the passage that begun this thread years ago!

You are commenting on your own limited knowledge of alchemy, mostly esoteric and psycholgic, and not at all regarding that passage as it came from the lips of the master whom completed the great work and his admissions whether allegorical or practical. It is why we begun this thread from a practical lab manner, to initially identify the. Philosophers matter.....

I on the contrary am of the opinion that Greg made some very valuable connections here! I also see no necessary contradiction to Fulcanelli' s text. The esoteric and so- called psychological aspects are definately interwoven with the "instructions" of lab practice. At least in Fulcanelli's texts. There is no way of seeing that differently imo.

I recommend reading also other quoted recommendations by Fulcanelli himself like

Apuleius - Golden Ass
Notre Dame - Victor Hugo
Gargantua and Pantagruel - Francois Rabelais

aso, asf.....
 

LeoRetilus

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I on the contrary am of the opinion that Greg made some very valuable connections here! I also see no necessary contradiction to Fulcanelli' s text. The esoteric and so- called psychological aspects are definately interwoven with the "instructions" of lab practice. At least in Fulcanelli's texts. There is no way of seeing that differently imo.

I recommend reading also other quoted recommendations by Fulcanelli himself like

Apuleius - Golden Ass
Notre Dame - Victor Hugo
Gargantua and Pantagruel - Francois Rabelais

aso, asf.....

On the contrary, it was why Andro himself, the moderator begged the question himself to Greg...it was rhetorical...so was my response, and something not at all open to debate.
 

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On the contrary, it was why Andro himself, the moderator
Just Andro. Otherwise it would have been marked "Mod Post" :)

I was merely curious. That's the reason I asked Greg and FF about possible practical matter-identification implications of such musings.
 

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I on the contrary am of the opinion that Greg made some very valuable connections here! I also see no necessary contradiction to Fulcanelli' s text. The esoteric and so- called psychological aspects are definately interwoven with the "instructions" of lab practice. At least in Fulcanelli's texts. There is no way of seeing that differently imo.

Completely agreed, FF.

I echo your sentiments wholeheartedly. At the moment, Greg is one of the most valuable posters here.

His insight, well-thought-out responses that take hours to write, and coherent method of delivery make him a magnificent asset to our community here and valued member as a whole. Look through Greg's post history and you will find many tremendously informative well-researched posts.

The title of this thread is "The Philosopher's Matter" and the the question posed was "what say you on this issue?". Greg shared what he had to say with us, and not only is what he is saying completely relevant to this thread and insightful, but perhaps some of us cannot grok the information Greg is providing or are not yet at the level of understanding where this information is yet relevant.

I did a thread search on "Mother", and it seems no one has brought up the connection between "Matter" and "Mother" sharing the same roots in the latin Mater. it gets very interesting. It seems that to earlier lovers of wisdom, Matter also refers to "a mental act or course of thought:

A couple of obsolete usages of "Matter":

(obsolete) The essence; the pith; the embodiment.
(obsolete) Inducing cause or reason, especially of anything disagreeable or distressing.

The latin root:

māter f (genitive mātris); third declension

mother (female parent)
mother (source, origin)
matron of a house
honorific title
woman
nurse
motherland
maternity, motherhood

I believe "matrix" is also related.

Appreciate you pointing all this out. Thank you.

Greg, don't be discouraged by that post. Thank you for all the time you put into sharing what you know with us. Your words do not fall on deaf ears; many of us welcome what you have to say with open arms and are appreciative of your input. You have knowledge some of us do not have, and your perspective is unique and special because you are not indoctrinated in the world of Alchemy and present things from a clean slate of your bias instead of the Alchemical bias we mostly all post with.


Much respect,
SCHMLDVCH
 

vigilance

Rectificando
Patron of the Arts
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303
It is pretty obvious from your responses that you havent even read Dwellings and therfore not at all familar with the subject matter taken from context within the book of the "passage" that begun this thread years ago!

You are commenting on your own limited knowledge of alchemy, mostly esoteric and psycholgic, and not at all regarding that passage as it came from the lips of the master whom completed the great work and his admissions whether allegorical, phonetic cabala or practical, and sometimes scientific ....Fulcanelli's style!. It is why we begun this thread from a practical lab manner, to initially identify the. Philosophers matter.....

It's quite obvious you are putting some effort into having a problem. What was it you said about being blinded? So to start, let me correct that for you. You mean "by your own repeated admission". I would hope it's obvious.

I "came in" at the vitriol image and the cube. I had gone back a few pages to try to discern where and how that came up, and again, admittedly abandoned that as it was too specialized for my level of knowledge.

My first reply was meant as a quick aside, not a tangent. I actually feel guilt for leading a topic astray, so I thought 7 times if there was any "added value" to the contribution.

And what's terribly ironic, is that the deciding factor was YOUR last "I'm the specially chosen one with secret info that will save you all" post, which breaks a cardinal rule of the Forums. And literally, the thought process was.. its certainly no worse than that, and if there's no value in it it would be deleted or moved. And MY ego would have felt no ways about it. It was a shot in the dark.

I related the first passage of the thread to "world systems", and that's what it is. It's a description Fulcanelli's world system. I just related the rambling I was doing about the standard greek/kabbalistic world systems. I thought the "controversal" part of that was my claim that I was aware of the originally post when I made that reply. It's kind of uncanny. Did this cease being a Hermetic and Kabbalistic art? It wasn't my intention to seem like I was attempting to "over talk" Fulcanelli.

Although i've had no personal interactions with Andro, his reputation proceeds him. It took me awhile to parse his reply. Not helping matters was I originally read Greg, FFS, or "Greg, FOR FUCK SAKE". LOL! And then.. I'm being grouped with FF, with whom he had a recent interaction that seemed to get a little testy. Was it reflecting the last interaction with Mods I had? Was it rhetorical, an admonishment?

And then once the redness subsided, I chose to respond in the same spirit I did the last time I had to "parse" him. He was playing Al-Khidr/Green Knight, seeing if there was any wheat in the chaff. Well, that's more previous times.

This time I think, knowing that I'm not a practical alchemical, it was more of a challenge to see if I could.

Otherwise, I expect it would have been moved. At the same time, I don't feel I have the status or "audience" to say "hey guys, let's continue this over here in this thread I created" and expect anyone to "follow me".

Honestly, I keep walking away. Flamel just came up. I had to collected the "hill" from both A the J and Hieroglyphics, and there it was in the text. Searched the thread, theres you guys referring to it.

Then again, randomly, Mater came to mind.. Mother, Matter. searching the thread, even with all the goddesses and related stuff, it doesn't seem to have come up. Philo-sophia-ers Matter.

So as I've said, I've been back through different pieces of this thread a bunch of times recently... I don't see how it's specifically about Fulcanelli? I don't see how you can decide that was specifically in terms of the original dwellings excerpt, and not Andro's question?

I know SO little about Fulcanelli that until the last two days, I always assumed that the term "phonetic cabala" was your own creation. I imagine it's to Florius' frustration that I still haven't read Dwellings. I had "collected" it before it ever started coming up in our conversations.. and I STILL haven't cracked it. I usually at least skim through things looking for images, but I haven't even done that. What I do know is that there was no attempt on Fulcanelli's part for there to be confusion between "phonetic cabala" and the Kabbalah. And that he takes it "cabellus". Not to mention that "cabala" took on a general meaning of "secret". And yet, anytime I see anyone ask you questions, making that mistake and asking you for further information, you make not attempt to correct them or set them on the right path.

What I do know, is the "Game". There is a tradition behind Fulcanelli's "Phonetic Cabala", and it is the "Green Language". See, it's not hard to say when people ask. From the french, vert. The term itself is part of the game. It takes on the sense of "closed" from the word "ouvert" for open. Remove the "ou" to close it. Leaves Vert. Green. Also known as the Language of the Birds.

And mater/mother/matter is an excellent example. So there.

P.s. thanks guys.
 
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