Secrecy & Alchemical Initiations

Pilgrim

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In both cases we have humans that are not having their needs met, and the fine details of comparing the legitimacy or methods by which they meet their needs, or attempt to, I think is an exercise that devolves into judgmental thinking and moral bias. Unfortunately, the whole thing is political in nature primarily due to fundamentalist fears driving voting patterns when it comes to right of center politics, and I don't think it's necessarily about money, as the socialized costs of the failed war on drugs, and all the associated fallout, greatly overshadows the costs it would take to rejig the system to provide the kind of help and support that segment of society needs.

The problem is a deep and complex one which is impossible to fix via any kind of singular political measure. For example the a-typical promise of fake Labour to "end Homelessness" is simply an absurd posturing piece if utter BS that can not possibly make a dent in the overall problem. We are dealing with a wide subset of the population who:

- Can only get better from their illness if they first desire / want to get better (many don't)
- Can only get better from their illness if they are given very expensive rehab tretment (£1000s) (which no-one will fund)
- Can only live a drug free life after successful treatment IF they are then given huge post-rehab support and community

I'm sorry to say that money as always sits at the heart of all this stuff.

Money drives the drug trade itself.
Money for more drugs (or drink) is the motivator for addicts behaviours
Money (or lack of it) is the restricting factor that prevents addicts getting proper rehab treatment
Money is the driver for admin and staff of thousands of support centres in cities who frankly need these people to stay as addicts
for otherwise they would be out of a job.

I've worked in the city support centres, making meals for the street drinkers, addicts and homeless
It's an utterly pointless pastime. These people in the VAST majority have no incentive to change their lives.

In fact most of the population would be staggered to find out that these street people are very often better fed than ordinary people.

They go to one support centre in the morning and get free breakfasts
They go out afterward for a bit of street begging to fund their next fixes
They toddle off to another support centre later to get free lunch
Then back out for more begging
Then off to yet another support center in the evening for dinner

That's 3 meals a day minumim they get and they don't generally pay for it. All they have to do is sign up with the support centres and receive counselling and join their programmes and they get everything for free.

The same support centres give them free clothes. They wash their clothes for them. Give them free haircuts. Showers and so on.

These people literally have no incentive to change because they are getting everything for free. The State response to these people is actually making it more and more comfortable to live that kind of lifestyle.

Therein lies a good part of the overall problem.



Either way, the end result of the alchemical process is transformation and transmutation, is it not? I believe you can attempt to give the stone to anyone, but not everyone will receive it.

Not sure what you meant by this, possibly you mean being given the secret of how to make the Stone? Surely if you give someone an actual smple of the Stone to ingest then it will hugely benefit them.
 

Lux Natura

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The problem is a deep and complex one which is impossible to fix via any kind of singular political measure. For example the a-typical promise of fake Labour to "end Homelessness" is simply an absurd posturing piece if utter BS that can not possibly make a dent in the overall problem. We are dealing with a wide subset of the population who:

- Can only get better from their illness if they first desire / want to get better (many don't)
- Can only get better from their illness if they are given very expensive rehab tretment (£1000s) (which no-one will fund)
- Can only live a drug free life after successful treatment IF they are then given huge post-rehab support and community

I'm sorry to say that money as always sits at the heart of all this stuff.

Money drives the drug trade itself.
Money for more drugs (or drink) is the motivator for addicts behaviours
Money (or lack of it) is the restricting factor that prevents addicts getting proper rehab treatment
Money is the driver for admin and staff of thousands of support centres in cities who frankly need these people to stay as addicts
for otherwise they would be out of a job.

I've worked in the city support centres, making meals for the street drinkers, addicts and homeless
It's an utterly pointless pastime. These people in the VAST majority have no incentive to change their lives.

In fact most of the population would be staggered to find out that these street people are very often better fed than ordinary people.

They go to one support centre in the morning and get free breakfasts
They go out afterward for a bit of street begging to fund their next fixes
They toddle off to another support centre later to get free lunch
Then back out for more begging
Then off to yet another support center in the evening for dinner

That's 3 meals a day minimum they get and they don't generally pay for it. All they have to do is sign up with the support centres and receive counseling and join their programmes and they get everything for free.

The same support centres give them free clothes. They wash their clothes for them. Give them free haircuts. Showers and so on.

These people literally have no incentive to change because they are getting everything for free. The State response to these people is actually making it more and more comfortable to live that kind of lifestyle.

Therein lies a good part of the overall problem.

Not sure what you meant by this, possibly you mean being given the secret of how to make the Stone? Surely if you give someone an actual ample of the Stone to ingest then it will hugely benefit them.

You know that fable of the elephant in the dark , that is described in different ways, based upon the people who happen to touch its trunk, or feet, or feel its skin? The story is at least as old as 15th century BCE, yet it is still relevant, and likely will always remain relevant.

I suppose the way different people can express their thoughts on whatever subject is going to always refer back to their own subjective experience or exposure to the subject, and these can include direct experiences, or borrow experiences as well - so not just what they have seen, but what they have read about it, or even been told about it by others. It's even entirely possible that, based upon what others have told, the subjective experience is primed to receive observations in a specific way. Perhaps with enough different subjective experiences we can connect various observations in order to try to get an image, brought to the light, of the subject.

The root need to fill something that is lacking is a circular process, and often time the act of filling further reinforces a later lacking.

It can be hard to discern what exactly is lacking, both from an outside perspective and even from the subjective perspective. Ultimately, if we take a very materialistic and base level view of fulfillment of things that are lacking, we can say they all share a commonality, being the release of neurochemicals, primarily dopamine to tickle the neurotransmitters and give a pleasurable elevation to consciousness that creates a "reward", but also other neurochemicals alongside, such as serotonin and various endorphins. A wide variety of actions can have the same neurological result - drugs and alcohol abuse, porn addictions, gambling addictions, doom-scrolling on social media, exerting power and influence over others, eating foods when hungry, exercise, partaking of new experiences of "novelty", going on shopping sprees, etc.

Money as the root of something is an interesting idea. I like to think that money is the symbol for something else, that is nearer to the root, but even that something else is not the root either. It's common to read, for example, of lottery winners who quickly go bankrupt and essentially ruin their lives after large winnings, due to inability to manage this new found capacity to fulfill their desires in a sustainable way. Money gives them the capacity to pursue something without any immediate limits, and this lack of limits can be destructive if one does not have the capacity to self regulate it.

Put another way, a fire too hot can and will destroy, and it takes some level of knowledge / wisdom / experience / understanding to be able to regulate that fire, so it is being used in a way that does not lead to the destruction of the contents of the flask.

This regulation of the fire, and now I am speaking both in a literal sense and a metaphorical one as well, is captured in the Promethean myths. The one who took fire from the gods and gave it for use to mortals had to have a specific quality or skill, otherwise these fires would have brought devastation and burned everything to a crisp. Within the myth is encoded part of this specific quality or skill, and without having that quality or skill, we lack the capacity to control the fire, just as children lack the foresight to understand the causality of touching a hot stove.

I don't discount what you say about the base level experiences and observations you have had - I am suggesting that what you see is the events that are occurring to those people on the physical plane so to speak, and most of the solutions that have been used to deal with it primarily exist on the physical planes as well, as they treat the symptoms foremost, although some venture into more subtle realms, such as with added mental therapy, yet those, in my opinion, are still merely treating the symptom. I myself have seen this, and have also seen those who have reached similar outcomes due to other experiences in their own past that led to the initial traumas that they were not able to cleanse and transform, as the fires they used instead led to the burning of the matter. Perhaps it takes influence from a higher / more subtle / more spiritual / more core plane of influence to create transformation?

Not sure what you meant by this, possibly you mean being given the secret of how to make the Stone? Surely if you give someone an actual smple of the Stone to ingest then it will hugely benefit them.

There are those who will say there is no difference here. I think the emerald tablet clears up this apparent division nicely, albeit in a very simple way that is probably overlooked when reading the text.
 

Via Veritatis

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Hi @ggkvarma

Sorry if this sounds strange, but maybe the way you wrote it wasn't clear: what are you really looking for? Someone to share the secret with? Here we have many people worthy of receiving the help of a master in the search for the Stone. I have not known many, nor for very long, but the few I have had contact with allow me to say that Illen A. Cluff and Schmeldvich are people endowed with great light. Others are equally people of great generosity, such as Guetto and Pilgrim. Do the tests you deem necessary with these great students or others, and find out for yourself if they are people worthy of receiving this mystery.

I echo Dickinson's words when he persuaded Mundanus of the need to share something that God freely bestows upon us: just as Mundanus had received the secret from the lips of a charitable teacher, so he should be grateful to the Almighty for having received this gift and share it with someone he deemed worthy; a case very much like yours, since you have claimed to have received the gift through teachers and gurus. In the same way I urge you to be grateful to God or Shiva, or Ganesha or Vishnu, or Brahma, or anyone else for whom you feel gratitude, and share your secret with someone who has shown himself as worthy as you to receive this precious gift.

Regards!
 

ggkvarma

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Hi vv, I leave it to the moderators of this forum which is really dedicated to learn and share the knowledge, many forums have shut down,as I mentioned earlier I was a member of alchemy processes.com, now its not in the web, I was very closely discussing with smelduvich and a few others on that forum, I see smelduvich is not available, I leave it to the moderators to select a member who is honest and trustworthy, intelligent enough to conduct the experiments, which is not so complicated, it is very easy but one must have patience, like to regulate the fire. I think you all know the rest except the drawing of water, unless it is revealed it is very hard to find, when it is revealed you will be surprised at how nature hid this and our sages hid more notoriously.

Ok, then decide.
 

Andro

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Mod Post

Hey @ggkvarma,

I will be not be responsible for such decisions. It is only yours to make, and yours alone.

I believe the other mods (@Awani and @Kiorionis) feel the same.

I do however encourage you to share on the open forum as much as you feel comfortable.
 

Awani

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Here we have many people worthy of... find out for yourself if they are people worthy...

No offence, but this is how the perfect cult member talks.

I am waiting for someone suitable god fearing member...

If god is to be feared, then that god is the Devil.

---------------------------------------------------------

Nothing makes me want to vomit more than people who claim to have knowledge or wisdom and want to find students... this can be presented in numerous ways but it will always be this in the end: complete fucking hogwash

If you in fact DO have such knowledge you would either just share it OR remain silent. Anything else is frankly pathetic. It's like the Epstein files... either release it all or remain silent pedo apologists.

I do not have a problem with a guru, and there are some great ones... but a guru SEEKING followers is a scammer. I don't care if money is not involved. Not all scams need money. I've seen a lot of cult leader or cult follower behaviour in recent years in the forum and it worries me that so many people can easily become either.
 

Awani

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You're right that those people have an illness and need help. The problem is that the real type of help costs £1000s which they don't have and the State won't pay for it. The State permits the drug pusher to push their drugs whilst pretending / making token efforts to take down crime gangs. It all comes back to money. Until the Stone is released to all, this is how things will remain. Crazy how so many just can't see this.

It need not cost money to end addiction and the Stone is not needed to do it either unless you consider Iboga the Stone... nothing cures addiction more effective than that IMO. I see nothing wrong with drug dealers or the free market unless you are taking about the biggest and most evil drug dealer of all: Big Pharma.

You are correct that the system is a business and that the State never does anything to solve a problem, because it would put itself out of business. The only way to change this is to not vote at all, but that's another topic for another thread I think.

Money is not the root of all evil... it's a tool, like guns... I don't blame guns or money for anything. The root of all evil in the world is usually a very powerful pedo and people willing to be cult members (see my post above). ;)
 

elixirmixer

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Personally, I have felt significantly more love and human spirit from those affected with drug addictions than even from my closest family and friends.

Also, the vast majority of people who have drug issues, stem from serious family issues, such as an alcoholic or abusive parent or a parent that died etc.

Finally, for one to "quit drugs" you may as well ask that person "are you willing to give up everything you know, all the people you know, break about 16 microhabitat that lead to relapse while simultaneously overcoming the addictive personality traits you already have, and shall we, while we're there, address the underlying child-born issues that started all of this. Oh and by the way you're going to feel extreme withdrawals at first followed by potentially months of anxiety and depression. And that's assuming you even have a safe place that you can reside while you try and attempt to do all of that on your own"

I like druggies. Sadly, I have had to cut them all out of my life because I actually went through the aforementioned ordeal and got away from that life. Thank God.

But I miss them. They're lovely.

Straight people in the middle class are far more likely to sue you and steal everything you have then a druggie. A druggie might pinch your wallet. A working class arrogant cockhead without the spiritual attributes of kindness and love will tip you for all you've got given the chance. And take your wife and kids too. And lock you up. And leave you there without giving it a second thought.

In retrospect, I don't really trust anyone. A handful of people at most.

I, on the other hand, am lovely. You can trust me. I would give you the shirt off my back, and the stone. And the blowjob you give me in return should be out of the kindness of your heart and not mutual exchange. My love is for free. And I want love for free as well but if you take my love and spit on me, I'll accept it and forgive you and pity your soul.

You'd be shocked how little people offer the blowjob. I'm basically celebate now.
 

Awani

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Well, it's all relative. It depends on the drug. Weed druggies yes, they can be both loyal and kind but a Meth Addict will sell you god damn soul for a hit.
 

Lux Natura

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unless you consider Iboga the Stone
Rebalance the neural web / reset the neural web / bring the neural web back to a level of functioning that is closer to the original set of patterns that nature designed vs the current patterns that have resulted from tweaking how the code works due to unregulated flooding of the receptors with neurochemicals.

I think there are ways to do this without external factors, and I'm not moralizing here on saying that doing it without external factors is inherently more worthy or anything like that. Whatever lessens the suffering is valid so long as it does not cause more suffering as a result. Whatever produces the transformation, produces the transformation, and it makes little sense to differentiate or to label one catalyst as somehow being more worthy of being "the one and only true catalyst" versus some other catalyst that also has the same effect. This is like two monotheistic religions going to war over the "One True God" and slaughtering each other, even though their chosen deities are both extrapolated from the same original monotheistic proto-deity.

If you have to make the stone in order to use the stone to confer the benefits of the stone, then the stone is an external factor, but if you have to understand what the stone is in order to use the stone in order to make the stone, then that understanding is an internal factor, and the division is an illusion in my opinion - if it works, it works. Both inside and outside. It just is.

The journey is healing, or it's elevating a base metal to gold, or it's an aligning of the experience of consciousness and perception with a modality that is derived from the contemplation of a universal or meta-universal ideal, or its a surrender and devotion, a return of the lost son to his father, etc. All these things describe the same thing in my opinion, and who are those that need this the most?

What is being transformed in the end?

I chuckle reading American politics. It's the poor that needs to be helped. It's the poor who need access to services. The system which only dispenses forms of aid to the ultra-wealthy misses the point completely, and I think there are parallels here, but I don't want to get embroiled in how people choose to help, who they choose to help, or who they call out publicly as "I will not help them", except to say that if the them is phrased a certain way, then it kinda negates the whole concept of help to begin with, showing it be something other than what it purports to be.

Sometimes I think the "pearls before swine" is a very judgmental thing that speaks more to the ego of the ones who think they have pearls. Clutching at them, holding them close, looking around and seeing nothing but swine.

Reminds me of the Zen Koan:

"A nun who was searching for enlightenment made a statue of Buddha and covered it with gold leaf. Wherever she went she carried this golden Buddha with her.

Years passed and, still carrying her Buddha, the nun came to live in a small temple in a country where there were many Buddhas, each one with its own particular shrine.

The nun wished to burn incense before her golden Buddha. Not liking the idea of the perfume straying to the others, she devised a funnel through which the smoke would ascend only to her statue. This blackened the nose of the golden Buddha, making it especially ugly."
 

ggkvarma

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Hello Awani, that is your opinion,you can try to bring a person to dictate your terms for your convenience,but the issue with this knowledge is different
A student of any art should have respect and patience just passion will not make him a good artist,moreover this art comes to a person who is merciful, forgiving and compassionate,not arguing with someone who doesn’t want anything in return
Go ahead and ban me
 

Awani

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Why would I ban you? You haven’t done anything.
 

Andro

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the agents which help to draw the water are sometimes of the vegetable and animal kingdom
Such as Vinegar (vegetable) or Urine (animal)? Those two are mentioned quite a bit in the literature... ICH (Naturweg) insists that the magnet is sourced from Man, while Ripley (among others) goes on and on about vinegar...


Also:

Is your metallic water flammable?

How volatile is this metallic water?

Have you measured the pH of this metallic water in an aqueous solution?

I'm not asking how to obtain it, just some general properties, if you're inclined to share.

Thanks.
 

ggkvarma

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Hi andro,it’s like some things are related to moon and some to the sun ,I tried to check the ph but it couldn’t wet the paper,it is not flammable,but very volatile,thrice I lost it due to high pressure,the lid popped each time ,now I will try with hermetic sealing,
 

ggkvarma

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Hi andro ,I tasted it several times it is bland or like olive oil,as it thickens it became sour,when it became citrine it was again tasteless but with light fragrance
 

Andro

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Hi andro,it’s like some things are related to moon and some to the sun ,I tried to check the ph but it couldn’t wet the paper,it is not flammable,but very volatile,thrice I lost it due to high pressure,the lid popped each time ,now I will try with hermetic sealing,
Hi andro ,I tasted it several times it is bland or like olive oil,as it thickens it became sour,when it became citrine it was again tasteless but with light fragrance
Thank you for the reply!
 

Pilgrim

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A Lament of Alchemy

I know something
Of great benefit to humanity
I keep it to myself
I tell myself it's too dangerous for society
I tell myself I am special
It's ok for me to know
I consider myself not an ordinary human
Even though I am like everyone else
Have the same faults as everyone else
Have the same limitations as everyone else
I still think I am special
I consider myself somehow more worthy than others
I need that feeling of being special
I'm the man
I am ego
I am hypocrisy
I am the archetypal failing of all mankind
I will not let go
I can't let go
I need to be above others
I need to be one up on everyone else
I need that power, I don't care about the rest of humanity
I'm alright Jack
It gives me status
I am hate, not love
Love is a weakness, power is strength
I can't afford for everyone else to know what I know
For then I would become nothing . . .
Again.
 

Lux Natura

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@Pilgrim The speaking in allusions and symbols and code is not designed as a mockery to those who don't know. It's a web of my own making, for it's own purpose.

I write these things because I enjoy the process whereby I see connections across many different things.

I don't know if its a benefit to humanity, maybe as an extrapolation - but I do think it is a benefit for the individual, yet not one that can just be randomly given, and by this I mean it's a process of self discovery, of integration, or even individuation if one think in Jungian terms, and not some commodity that can be passed along. To be clear, I don't think anyone can give it to anyone else, and even if they wanted to, I don't think any person could receive it. This is neither through some desire to hide, nor is it through some fault or inability of receiving. It's more of like the disconnect between a materialistic clinging to conscious mental processes versus being taken along the stream of an active imagination that self directs. If we believe we own our thoughts, that they somehow represent an integral part of who we are, instead of treating them as just another tool, just another symbol, just another allusion making machine, I think we confuse things to the point where we cannot differentiate the methods whereby consciousness works with the matter which it works. That is then relevant to what you write - it becomes that clinging to the outward image.

The understanding is a personal and individual experience of a process that is universal, I think, and thus each individuals understanding will be different, unless we can all agree on re-orienting our symbols in such a way as to align with each other. There are then these bridges which serve as anchor points in reorientation, which is to say, there are patterns that continue to emerge that appear outwardly different. So in what I write, I am writing that I see the same things over and over again, in different garbs, and I skate across these as they enter and exit my train of though. The more I read, the more I see how others saw these same patterns, and used a wide variety of allusions to speak of them.

For myself, those authors who have been the most generous as the ones I like. Likewise I use symbols and metaphors and allusions which I think are right below the surface, requiring merely a single leap to the next idea to reveal it, whereas I think many authors layer it in multiple leaps, making it nearly impossible to figure out. But I concede that perhaps it is not intelligible to you, because your own personal path of discover is unfolding in a different way. That is okay. That is normal.

Perhaps some spiders bite out of spite because it is their nature to do so, or perhaps it's that we don't understand their nature well enough, and it just appears that way to us. Perhaps one spider wants to catch a fly with vinegar, and another one catches it honey. Maybe the honey making spider accidentally attracted a vinegar loving fly? Perhaps some spiders are too concerned about how other spiders build their web instead of focusing on building their own. Perhaps some build unintelligible webs to catch a rare fish. Who knows, things are not always what they initially appear.

Either way, nature contains all.
 

Pilgrim

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The magnet can be many things.
Ok so name 3 things it can be

The magnet can be a thing or a process
Ok so name 3 things it can be and 3 process it can be

Where shall we collect? When shall we collect? In the place that is right for collecting, in the time that is right for collecting
Ok so what is that place and when is the right time? And what specifically is being collected? Speak plainly.

Lux Natura said:
The speaking in allusions and symbols and code is not designed as a mockery to those who don't know
Clearly. It's designed as a way for individuals to conceal the vital knowledge from others even though those individuals are no more worthy of it than anyone else. Hence my Lament. The ego needs to justify its existence and instead of freeing the world it contributes to its continuing enslavement by seeking to be "special", "worthy", "entitled", "enlightened", "in the know", "above others". Yet ironically many involved in the field of alchemy like to talk about the death of the self, the ego, becoming spiritual beings of light. The juxtaposition of such heavenly traits vs the self-centeredness of keeping vital knowledge from humanity is lost on them.

I like your prose Lux don't get me wrong but all you're really doing is stirring a cup of mysterious liquid that is described mysteriously in numerous works without offering any actual straight piece of information to interpret the symbols, code or allegories. In what way does adding more and more allegories and cryptic terms help anyone?

The reality and truth is that if you want to give the combination number of your safe to someone else, then you will tell then, simply and plainly. If you don't want them to know it then you give them cryptic nonsense that they can't fathom but how absurd is that in the first place. If there is no intention at all to inform the person of the salient fact then why bother at all with the cryptic allegorical nonsense? It boils down to "I know something you don't ha ha". Ego.
 

Lux Natura

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without offering any actual straight piece of information to interpret the symbols, code or allegories.
All you gotta do is ask, don't be shy. I really enjoy the cryptographical element, the myths, the symbols, the idea behind the symbols, thoughts on thinking, and so on. For me, it's a way of getting it out. Most of the time I write only for myself, once in a while I post it online, but its not meant for everyone, just as talking about methods of using a compass and a square to draw some complex geometric symbols is perhaps only meant for those masons that are interested in the hidden theory of geometric correspondences, and will be meaningless to many others, who perhaps only need to know where to hit a brick to break it in half.

The nature of public forums means it is all visible to all, but it does not mean that all thing are written for all people. Still, if one is interested, all they have to do is ask - I have found that works quite well. Some willingly share, others do not, and that is okay too. Nobody owes it to anyone to explain how they got to where they got, yet no one can take it from anyone else - that source is there, ready to be captured.

It doesn't really ask much. Some in the past called it "the fear of god". Others spoke of the importance of honesty - honesty of character above all else in my opinion.

None of us can hide what we are, certainly not from it.

Also if you think this is hard to digest, go read a bit of Finnegan's Wake one day. A marvelous piece of work that I think everyone should at least attempt.
 

Lux Natura

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@Pilgrim

Sure. It's gonna depend on what you are trying to capture.

If you want to capture iron filing, neodymium makes a great magnet. If you want to capture gold from a mixture of various ores, mercury makes a great magnet. If you want to capture humidity, then silica gel packets make a great magnet. Bonus 4th one: if you want a specific bird to nest on your property, then an artificial design that seeks to mimic the important parameters that are required for that bird to nest makes a great magnet.

For processes:

If you want to capture moisture from the air, then a setup that use ice in a glass vase make a great magnet, via the act of condensation on the outer surface of the glass. If you want to capture and direct flowing water off your roof into one spot, then eavestroughs and downspouts along with certain minimum slopes make a great process for collecting all these and directing them to a singular spot, using the processes of angles and slope in conjunction with gravity. If you want to capture heat from the sun, a magnifying glass can capture it into a spot, using the processes of optics.

It's all very specific to what you are aiming to capture.

Finally, if you want to capture the meanings behind things, you need to do the practical work that relates to those things, in supplementation with some other things (reading, for example, and however you define "prayer").
 

Lux Natura

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@Pilgim

I've been watching a lot of the old xfiles lately, but if you haven't seen it then this won't make sense.

There is a repeating trope that Mulder often does not ask the right questions - the questions he asks come from a level of his understanding with a certain expectation of what he things the answer should be, but the answers exist in a different level of awareness, of which he does not (yet) have. When he is told what question to ask, and asks it, then he gets an answer, but one that often leaves him with more questions.

His character, with the ability to believe, and easily make connections, is always right on the tail of uncovering something, and while he has many experiences, ultimately he usually comes away without any objective evidence.

His partner, Scully, a steadfast materialist, believing only that which can be proved by science, and even within that field only accepting that which also falls under commonly accepted theory, often uncovers strange anomalies that are in contradiction to the current paradigm, but these are often explained away in scientific terms, whereas Mulder often sees these as actual evidence for his own beliefs.

There is, in a sense, the idea that if you cannot ask a question in the same type of terms you wish for it to be answered, or ask the question in the terms that are of the nature of the answer, the answer will always be unintelligible. Just as Mulder and Scully show, the materialist viewpoint is not all encompassing, or more specifically our understanding is not complete, and nor will it be, until our understanding undergoes a transformation into a different state, which, from the current materialist scientific state, is viewed as being outside of those boundaries.

So in this regard, if you are asking what the magnet is, and you want to know this in clear plain everyday normal terms, you need to define what is being captured in clear plan everyday terms as well. It's like how one says "what kind of magnet attracts iron", to get an answer on the actual physical qualities of neodymium, wherein "iron" is part of the question, in the same level of plainness as "magnet".

If you want to ask what kind of magnet attracts the starting matter, for example, you need to define what starting matter is, in clear and plain everyday terms, otherwise the answer is going to be just as ambiguous to you, as you are expecting an answer from a very materialist and scientific point of view of a topic that you cannot define using that same point of view. Thus it's a meaningless exercise in frustration.

Mulder often asks himself what the "truth" is, as if it is a single tangible thing that will answer everything for him. In some moment of self reflection he admits the truth is a working towards a process of his own understanding maturing as he grapples with the questions from his own childhood. Thus that quest for truth for him serves as his own magnet towards that which he seeks - and if we can clearly say what he seeks, in plain language, we will also understand the nature of his quest in a deeper way, and understand what "truth" actually is, behind the symbol. He himself makes an allusion to this when he states that if he had been born with a peg-leg, then to survive the day-to-day would be enough for him, but since he was not, he must struggle for meaning.
 

Pilgrim

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Lux Natura said:
Sometimes I think the "pearls before swine" is a very judgmental thing that speaks more to the ego of the ones who think they have pearls. Clutching at them, holding them close, looking around and seeing nothing but swine.

I'm not here to play games Lux or to trade annecdotes and allegories. Your statement above adequately describes many people and indeed the entire mass of so-called secret societies or "societies of secrets" without which the entire world would be a much better and safer place for all.
 

Lux Natura

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Hi @Pilgrim. This thread is about secrecy though. If I may say, it appears to me that you are frustrated at secrecy in general because you don't understand what they are going on about, those who speak in symbols? I can relate to this - sometimes I read something and I don't get what they are talking about. Sometimes I figure it out - it's like a little game. On that note though, we find many stories in the bible that were written in Parables. One could say it was secrecy too, until one understands a parable, and then it's no longer so.

I don't know if the world would be better or worse with the removal of a single element, such as "secret societies". I think the world is more complicated that any of us can imagine, and what we imagine it to be is merely that - our imagination of it. Many people imagine the world in many different ways. I think some secrets are kept for a reason, and I believe many will understand why.

As for non-secrecy side of things, you may be interested in a new thread, about a process with wine, in which I am simply just showing processes as they are, without any sort of symbolism or code. It's up to you to figure it out though - one could just as easily describe the process using symbols, which, if one does not know what they mean, could appear to be bewildering. There is a bridge the connects these two things - the symbol with the process, but it's a learned behavior to "think in code", and not so much a matter of just memorizing the code.

If I may ask, because you mentioned it, and thus made the opening, "why are you here?"