• The migration to this new platform is complete, but there are a lot of details to sort out. If you find something that needs to be fixed make a post in this thread. Thank you for your patience!

Salt & Water

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,734
Andro, could you suggest some reading to do the same with acids and vinegar? Please. I understand that the golden chain describes well some processes.

Recommended reading: The Golden Chain of Homer :)
 

Roburus

Interiora
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Aug 4, 2016
Messages
38
Some alchemical texts refer to niter as a substance in air or dew. They do that because "their niter" has common properties with common niter. For example, you said already that it passes a coal test, which common niter will do also. However, this does not mean that "their niter" is common niter as some modern writers assume. "Their niter" has a "nitrous quality", probably it has a nitrogen-oxygen compound in its molecular formula that gives the fiery properties, but in general, it is not a known chemical compound.


I'm still skeptical with that interpretation. We know from many sources that "their salt" is not common salt. Various people have tried the "Actum Leiden" letter and similar recipes without positive results (salt will not melt like wax). On the other hand there are some references reporting that common chemical salts can be volatilized, for example Steve Kalec has documented plant ash volatilization

https://www.alchemywebsite.com/steve_kalec.html.

I'm not sure whether those results can be simply explained by mundane chemistry or there is something more. For example I have seen volatile crystals of ammonium carbonate commonly forming in plant and other experiments, which of course is a dead end road.

Recently there was a discussion in a Facebook group (I won't say the name/spam) about this volatilization of Steve Kalec's salts. The central point is that the oil technique does not volatilize the ashes, but it is the oil itself that forms the "crystallized salts" in the retort spout, even without adding any salt. Several experiments were done and this was confirmed.
 

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,734
The central point is that the oil technique does not volatilize the ashes, but it is the oil itself that forms the "crystallized salts" in the retort spout.
If that's the case, it's even more interesting! I would not even be surprised... Everything is in Everything, after all...

However, I have my own "theory" on this, that the so-called "volatilized salts" in those experiments do not really originate from the fixed salts or from the oil or whatever, but are rather Newly Formed Matter, resulting from the Dance between the Protagonists. But this is a more "advanced" topic, probably not for this thread...

I will nevertheless reveal a bit more: In a particular experiment, the "volatilized salts" were separated and cleaned, and subsequently circulated in their own Rectified Spirit, and a gradual increase in quantity of those salts was recorded, without any additional external input.
 

Philosophical

Rectificando
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
212
Some alchemical texts refer to niter as a substance in air or dew. They do that because "their niter" has common properties with common niter. For example, you said already that it passes a coal test, which common niter will do also. However, this does not mean that "their niter" is common niter as some modern writers assume. "their niter" has a "nitrous quality", probably it has a nitrogen-oxygen compound in its molecular formula that gives the fiery properties, but in general, it is not a known chemcal compound.

I agree completely. Their niter is not common niter, though likely could be made using common niter.

I'm still skeptical with that interpretation. We know from many sources that "their salt" is not common salt. Various people have tried the "Actum Leiden" letter and similar recipes without positive results (salt will not melt like wax). On the other hand there are some references reporting that common chemical salts can be volatilized, for example Steve Kalec has documented plant ash volatilization

https://www.alchemywebsite.com/steve_kalec.html.

I'm not sure whether those results can be simply explained by mundane chemistry or there is something more. For example I have seen volatile crystals of ammonium carbonate commonly forming in plant and other experiments, which of course is a dead end road.

I also agree here, their salt is not common salt, as in NaCl or any other salt as it occurs frequently in nature. Yet their salt IS common salt (that which is common to them all) which is the way Von Welling uses the phrase 'common salt'. Another phrase he uses is common kitchen salt, I would say he uses this as we must prepare this salt. It is my contention that this salt is found 'in' all salts, let's go the full monty and say in all things, though some are easier than others. My suspicion is it comes down to the 'water' that is used. This water doesn't necessarily have to be water as the experiment you posted by Steve Kalec suggests. Who is to say that volatizing plant salts in a completely dead road? Is there perhaps something that is missing, perhaps even coming down to not enough solve et coagula because the 'water' used isn't infused with spirit.

Alternatively, such an acidic "Spirit" (with a "negative" ORP) can be also artificially produced in the lab, and it will be sweet to the taste and safe to ingest (at your own risk, see Disclaimer and Safety First!), despite having a low pH, between 2 and 3.

Any pointers? :D Also would such a procedure require a distillation apparatus?

However, I have my own "theory" on this, that the so-called "volatilized salts" in those experiments do not really originate from the fixed salts or from the oil or whatever, but are rather Newly Formed Matter, resulting from the Dance between the Protagonists. But this is a more "advanced" topic, probably not for this thread...
Oh but do go on! Maybe it can have it's own thread! :D From the fiery love-making of the two, a third arose...
 

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,734
Any pointers?
No, because it's still just an "Ersatz" and besides the unusual properties, it's not particularly potent in the subsequent works.

Also would such a procedure require a distillation apparatus?
Yes, and therefore way too complicated.

Oh but do go on! Maybe it can have it's own thread! :D From the fiery love making of the two and third arose.

New Spin-Off here: Salts & Oils, Acids & Vinegars
 

theFool

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
1,234
Who is to say that volatizing plant salts in a completely dead road? Is there perhaps something that is missing, perhaps even coming down to not enough solve et coagula because the 'water' used isn't infused with spirit.
Then you may find that thread here interesting:

 

theFool

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
1,234
This recipe comes from John French (Art of Distillation):

Take of the urine of a young man drinking much wine, as much as you please. Let it stand in glass vessels in putrefaction forty days. Then pouring it from its feces, distill it in a glass gourd in sand until all be dry. Then cohobate the said spirit on the caput mortuary three times. Then distill it in a gourd of a long neck and there will ascend, besides the spirit, a crystalline salt which you may either keep by itself, being called the volatile salt of urine, or mix it with its spirit which will thereby become very penetrating if they be digested for some days together.
Note that the pipe of the head must be wide or else the volatile salt will soon stop it.
Note that this salt is so penetrating that it penetrates the body of the glass.
This spirit by rectification may be made so pure and subtle that it will burn as fire and dissolve gold and precious stones.
This being often applied to any place pained with the gout eases it presently. It also quickens any part that is benumbed.
The salt volatile is Helmont's famous medicine for the jaundice.
The volatile salt he is talking about is mainly ammonium carbonate. Wether it contains something alchemical in it I don't know. I know that when evaporated, it leaves behind a black spot. I haven't seen it dissolve gold, maybe the "young man" was not drinking much wine?
 
Last edited:

theFool

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
1,234
Excuse me for the little thread spamming. I wanted to strengthen the idea that the volatile salt should not contadict mainstream chemistry observations. You can't have volatile NaCl because "HIM" is "inside" it, neither volatile potassium carbonate from spagyrics. The volatile "carrier" salt is something else, usually ammonium carbonate or ammonium chloride. Those are volatile by "default". They should appear because of the manipulations we do on sea salt or other starting matter. They might carry with them something alchemical out of the starting matter but in minute quantities.
 

theFool

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
1,234
Recently there was a discussion in a facebook group (I won't say the name/spam) about this volatilization of Steve Kalec's salts. The central point is that the oil technique does not volatilize the ashes, but it is the oil itself that forms the "crystallized salts" in the retort spout, even without adding any salt. Several experiments were done and this was confirmed.
Group with members performing experiments = nice
Group with members performing common experiment = extra nice
 
Last edited:

Dendritic Xylem

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
473
Most gardeners will know how hard it is to grow good plants in dead soil, so they add living material to the earth to Enliven it.

It's actually very easy to grow plants in a sterile media or in no media at all (aeroponics). You just have to provide the mineral ions in the form of salts. Normally plants rely on bacteria/fungi to break down the raw minerals and organic matter into ions which can be absorbed by plant roots. But dissolved salts provide the same ions with no need for the microbiology step. All the plants need is light, air, water, and salts.

So where do they get the life force from? Do commercially processed salts contain enough residual life force? Does the plant absorb life force from the air or light? Or maybe all of the above? I just know that living microorganisms aren't the main source of this plant vivification because the plants actually grow faster and yield more in sterile hydroponics setups. In my experience, the extra oxygen to the roots seems to be the main reason for this improved growth. I also get much better rooting of clones in a highly aerated sterile medium like perlite rather than in living organic soil... even without any nutrients added. Sorry if this is getting off topic, but I think it's important to help us understand the true source of "enlivenment" or "vivification".
 

black

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jun 12, 2011
Messages
1,539
Hi DX

It's actually very easy to grow plants in a sterile media or in no media at all (aeroponics). You just have to provide the mineral ions in the form of salts. Normally plants rely on bacteria/fungi to break down the raw minerals and organic matter into ions which can be absorbed by plant roots. But dissolved salts provide the same ions with no need for the microbiology step. All the plants need is light, air, water, and salts.

So where do they get the life force from?
From the mineral / metal realm as this is where the most "Virtue" is stored.
This why Alchemists work in this realm to be able to collect enough "Virtue"
to then be able to Multiply it.
Do commercially processed salts contain enough residual life force?
Yes they do.
Does the plant absorb life force from the air or light? Or maybe all of the above?
Perhaps ... I haven't bothered to check about this.

I just know that living microorganisms aren't the main source of this plant vivification because the plants actually grow faster and yield more in sterile hydroponics setups. In my experience, the extra oxygen to the roots seems to be the main reason for this improved growth. I also get much better rooting of clones in a highly aerated sterile medium like perlite rather than in living organic soil...even without any nutrients added. Sorry if this is getting off topic, but I think it's important to help us understand the true source of "enlivenment" or "vivification".
Thank you DX, I also think it's very important to understand where we can find the "Virtue" and be able to relate to the cycles of Nature. :D
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
I calcined the salts, and let the grey substance in them. Then I solved "everything" with this distilled water. I'm evaporating it now using a candle directly on the glass, just to see how it behaves in a quick coagula (85ºc).

The best results I have had so far are the ones where the water naturally evaporates - No source of heat - Just SUN on it.

My feeling was correct. Soon after letting it at the direct fire, I took the violence over the salts and it's now being slowly coagulating in a sand bath. The brown mater is floating on the top.



I'm going to perform calculations + solve and coagula to see if there is more appearance of the brown matter.
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
The brown mater is floating on the top.

I'm going to perform calculations + solve and coagula to see if there is more appearance of the brown matter.

I was able to do the test I wanted. The calcination was performed and the matter increased as suspected. I was able to isolate it and submitted it to the microscope. I also did it with the white matter from the water I collected (see here).

It seems green :cool:
I took many photos of different micro spots. Hope you guys like it.



To be continued:
 

ghetto alchemist

Occultum
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
816
Thanks for putting this up Christophorus.

It's ironic you're asking for input from the forum, because IMO you're now the resident expert.
Unfortunately I don't have any answers, only questions.
Did the limestone cave water also cause the salt to climb the sides of the flask?
Is the crystallisation any different this time around?
What do you think might be going on?
 

black

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jun 12, 2011
Messages
1,539
Hi Christophorus

It's so good to see the work that you are doing.

I'm interested in hearing what you are expecting to find ?

And what direction do you think your lab work will take next ?

It's important to have a direction to focus on. :D
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
Thanks for putting this up Christophorus.

It's ironic you're asking for input from the forum, because IMO you're now the resident expert.
Unfortunately I don't have any answers, only questions.

1 - Did the limestone cave water also cause the salt to climb the sides of the flask?
2 - Is the crystallisation any different this time around?
3 - What do you think might be going on?

1 - Yes it did, but not as much as with my usual springwater. I filtered everything and I'm doing it again without the brown/green materia to check that out.
2 - Yes the brown/green floats in the hot salted water, then when the salts begin to appear it goes to the bottom of the flask. The cubic form of salt also seams to have a different look.
3 - I really don't know. I need to dig it out. The green/brown thing is formed by little circles joined together. I noticed that the salts tend to crystalize on top of it. Its like a salt magnet. It's impossible nobody ever studied this. I will try to find more info.

Thank you!
 

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,734
I noticed that the salts tend to crystalize on top of it. Its like a salt magnet. It's impossible nobody ever studied this.

Oh, it's been studied plenty. Just no-so-much talked about, not openly at least.

Personally I think it's amazing what you're doing and discovering. And sharing.
 

theFool

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
1,234
The brown mater is floating on the top.
I'm trying to follow your train of thought. This brown matter appears during the "dissolve and coagulation" of the sea salt with various waters, right?

Also, it seems to be never ending, even if you filter it out, more appears in the next dissolution - coagulation cycle.

I wonder why does it float on top. This is usually seen at the bottom.
 

theFool

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
1,234
It seems green :cool:
I took many photos of different micro spots. Hope you guys like it.

IMG-20210907-204411.jpg
We definately like. This attitude nudges more people to share their work.

About the crystallization of salt around this brown dirt, I think it is an expected behaviour.
When a solution contains a salt that is about to crystalize, the first crystal will start appearing around a small foreign body (dirt) or a scratch in the containing glass or another small salt crystal we may drop in. Then the crystalization continues around that "nucleation seed" and gives the result you see in images (brown dirt in the center of the crystals). Same is true for condensation of vapour to water. We could say that rain drops sometimes carry in their center a small "nucleation seed" which could be dust or other foreing body.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_crystal
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
Hi Christophorus

It's so good to see the work that you are doing.

I'm interested in hearing what you are expecting to find ?

And what direction do you think your lab work will take next ?

It's important to have a direction to focus on. :D

Hello Black.

1) I believe the salt in a strong heat materializes "something unknown".
A kind of new earth or fertile soil (in this case a green one) where the salts tend to grow easier, like a starting ground. A kind of nursery for the matter. The implications of this are huge for me.

2) Too soon to tell. Alchemy for sure but I'm very inexperienced and the development of things takes time. I will not choose a specific path, like the wet or dry etc, but instead, I will try to understand the how and why of things in a way that would be simple for me, so that I can make my own approach. Tools and processes are just tools and processes...

I will give your one small example to illustrate what I'm saying. (it might be a wrong example, but what I'm trying to show is the way I see things) eg:

Hydrogen is one of the columns of material creation. One pillar of Malkuth. It's like the universal magnet that gives to the other pillar (the other side of the H = | - | ) Helium the ability to (by adaptation) link and create (or bring to Malkuth) other elements.
When 2 Oxigen atoms (that is: wind or air) are attracted by H water is created. Water is a magnet/conductor at a more tangible level etc.

If we transpose this to our art; Earth, Air, Water, and Fire can be understood differently. They became the final elements (mother and father) that combined give us a trinity to work with. But those are insufficient for our purpose since the force they possess is already adapted/leveled to each species (mineral, vegetal, or animal). In order to increase that force, we need to bring "Him" to the equation. A Mercury will be able to "bring it down", sulfur will be needed to conduct it and salt will be needed to tie it down. If the process is successful, a 5th or new element will appear and the trinity will become alive or will possess a new life or a more evolved one, as so... much more potent.
This V element must descend from "heavens". In order to occur the needed "transubstantiation" at the conscience level of the matter. That will be the cause of the transmutation. Again this is only my opinion.

My focus now is to understand the hows and whys of the magnets. The better the magnets...

The experiences, recipes etc for me are just tools to understand things. Then it will come the time to do my own.

It will take years or even lives. We will see. :)
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
I'm trying to follow your train of thought. This brown matter appears during the "dissolve and coagulation" of the sea salt with various waters, right?

Also, it seems to be never ending, even if you filter it out, more appears in the next dissolution - coagulation cycle.

I wonder why does it float on top. This is usually seen at the bottom.

It gathered and floated on the top after being some hours in the sand bath.



As soon as the water dried in the flask (only a little bit was remaining at the level of the crystallized salts, it moved down. Less dense than water but denser than salt?
 

black

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jun 12, 2011
Messages
1,539
My focus now is to understand the hows and whys of the magnets. The better the magnets...
The experiences, recipes etc for me are just tools to understand things. Then it will come the time to do my own. It will take years or even lives. We will see. :)

I can tell from what you have written and your work Christophorus that
you are here for the long haul.

You are clear of thought, have a good attitude and it would appear that
you are very tenacious which are all good character traits for Alchemy.

I wish you all the best in your work.

lege lege relege ora labora et invenies
 

Seraphim

Invenies
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jul 5, 2018
Messages
409
Beautiful colours! Thanks for sharing Christophorus. It looks like a different dimension or something in there. Are those pyramids on fire or do they have a fire in the middle? What about those little Rainbow Flakes are the the same thing? Is there any glitter or sparkles?

It kind of reminds me of that Pink Floyd album cover.

6187CF4GrcL._SX450_.jpg