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Physical Immortality... on THIS Earth?

Andro

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PS to the above:

My views do NOT stem from "horrible" personal circumstances such as depression, sickness, misery or despair.

I am quite stable financially, debt-free + savings, in decent health, with few but loyal & loving friends, a satisfactory (for now) line of "work", etc...

Although I've had my share of trauma, I can't say I have been more traumatized or less traumatized than someone else. It's difficult to quantify these things.

No, this comes from a much deeper place. I don't actually remember ever feeling otherwise. It just took time to find the words, because this is how I felt before I could even talk.

I also perfectly realize that money won't buy me "happiness", just as poverty won't buy me anything. But I have no problem whatsoever with gaining more financial wealth via alchemical or any other means, but this is ONLY just so I can retreat to a more secluded and remote location, focus on my goals (elsewhere outlined) and be less bothered by the mundane and excruciatingly boring "games" that most people find so "interesting". Outsourcing most of the insanely boring day-to-day dealings of this reality is something that money CAN buy :)

I have no problem with anyone doing/believing whatever gets them through the night, as long as they don't throw their shit at me.

Live and let live.
 

Andro

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Addendum to above PS :) :

Physical Immortality on this earth / in this reality is relative. Everything dies in here.

I have started a thread touching on "White Sun Alchemy". I see how it is possible to EXTEND one's life span and health-span, perhaps even indefinitely, through White Sun Alchemy.

But ultimately, EVERYTHING dies. Even the sun.

And no one has actually returned from complete death (not clinical death/coma/NDE/OBE/etc.) to either confirm or dismiss our various beliefs.

"Black Sun" Alchemy/Transcendence/Liberation (and related "hacks") are a different "matter".

This is the stuff that I prefer to keep private.

Not because of "jealously guarding" anything, but because Deaf Ears = Waste of Time.
 

Warmheart

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Hi Warmheart

Are you suggesting that Alchemy might open a doorway out of this hell ?
Indeed, and many alchemists wrote about this. There are many ways to deal with this situation being stuck in this hell. Some Traditions make you be totally focused on Liberation combined with specific extensive practices and just forfeit all worlds. Some Traditions, like Alchemy, let you take your time while having physical immortality, some Traditions allow your subtle body become immortal, many Traditions focus on getting your Spirit be immortal (because spirit isn't inherently immortal too).

So the "hierarchy of immortality" comes such:
1. Physical immortality.
2. Immortality of subtle body.
3. Immortality of spirit.

Physical immortality is frowned upon by some Traditions because it makes you attached to this world, while there are many much better worlds out there. However, it must not be forgotten that in better times people lived for 50,000+ years and so they didn't bother with physical immortality as much and death was totally different to what it is in current time (I can only say that death was more like a painless choice to move to some other place you want without any crippling side effects like "memory loss" and other horrific things, some of which are so disastrous and people aren't even aware of them, these things are 1000 times worse than total oblivion). But 100 years is top for modern man, and when most of it is wasted by sleep, work and diseases it is FAR from being sufficient to make any real progress on spiritual path.

And without real progress on spiritual path it is nigh impossible to become immortal in subtle body or in spirit. So prolongation of life in physical body (by prolongation I mean not prolonging life by some pathetic 5/10 years, but by indefinite amount of time) becomes a necessity if someone wants to progress.

Alchemy provides interesting solutions for that. And while production of vulgar gold is one of Alchemy's results, it pales in comparison with its other fruit - Elixir of Life.

P.S.: I can foresee some people getting up in arms about 50,000+ years of lifespan, using their demonic science to prove that length of human's life keeps increasing. It's their choice what to follow - some easy demonic delusion or hard and thorny path of True Knowledge.
 

Awani

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Keeping only "positive" outlook on life/death it is like accepting the problem as something natural and doing nothing about it.

Who said that? You did... that is your perception of what positive outlook is supposed to be like. LOL.

I think that people should read more classic books and less crap which was published in the last 2-3 centuries to return back on track.

Those books contain what you derogatorily call New Age. Same knowledge only written in contemporary language. Although, in my opinion, very little knowledge can be found in books... they are mostly used for inspiration.

So let's come closer to the topic of this thread: Physical Immortality. Let's discuss things like what Kibric mentioned about immortality via elements, getting care of your skin by the help of methylene blue and stuff like this..

The topic of the thread is: if you are immortal what would you do

So lets say you create the philosophers stone. You consume it and now your lifespan has massively extended to hundreds if not thousands of years...is that a wonderful thing or a nightmare? What if politically the world continues to "develop" down the road it is headed?

Would you end up cutting yourself off from the masses? Would you end up walking the Earth alone as a recluse hermit for a very very long time? Would you come to envy those who die?

When you think about it the life of such a person parallels the story of the vampire blessed in some eyes cursed in others!

Its funny I remember a TV program where they interviewed people who made it to over 100 years of age...all of them said it was too long and that they are eagerly looking forward to death :D

:p
 

Awani

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Outsourcing most of the insanely boring day-to-day dealings of this reality is something that money CAN buy...

Or is it a mind trick?

"Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water". - Zen quote

...this reality, across its multitude of layers and dimensions, is a complete shit-hole... the prisoner's only duty is to escape...

My perspective is that this experience is a microcosm of the macrocosm... there is no escape from the Mystery. Reaching the "source"... to merge with the One... to experience complete oblivion... whatever we call it... the Mystery remains... even for the Mystery itself... the only "shit-hole" aspect I see about existence in human form is if the "individual" keeps failing the "school"... and having to be re-born again and again... eventually you got to finish playing the game. A spiritual/shamanic path is an exit strategy of sorts... BUT there is no real exit really. Even at the "source"... at the single point... the Mystery is a Mystery.

It is not about glorifying the prison. It is about attitude.

Everything is a prison. Even complete freedom.

:p
 

Lapis Solaris

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So lets say you create the philosophers stone. You consume it and now your lifespan has massively extended to hundreds if not thousands of years...is that a wonderful thing or a nightmare? What if politically the world continues to "develop" down the road it is headed?

Would you end up cutting yourself off from the masses? Would you end up walking the Earth alone as a recluse hermit for a very very long time? Would you come to envy those who die?

When you think about it the life of such a person parallels the story of the vampire blessed in some eyes cursed in others!

Why is it, though, that just because the body would supposedly be made able to live for up to 1000 years (or eternally, whichever theory you prefer), does the notion of death still get treated like it’s somehow elusive? Any of us could walk out in front of a train! My biology doesn’t determine that I’ll necessarily die for another few decades, but anything could break my body at literally any moment.
 

Warmheart

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Who said that? You did... that is your perception of what positive outlook is supposed to be like. LOL.
Positive outlook is when you see the problem and not giving up but positively trying to solve it. When you see that there is a big problem but say that it is ok, there is no problem... Well, I am not sure about good proper word for that :)
Those books contain what you derogatorily call New Age. Same knowledge only written in contemporary language. Although, in my opinion, very little knowledge can be found in books... they are mostly used for inspiration.
Let's take Carl Jung and Basile Valentine in comparison (I ask people to forgive me for putting those names together in one sentence). So, what makes Basil Valentine be New Age to you?

There is also additional problem that good old books are in lesser availability and harder to find, while modern New Age books are everywhere with massive aggressive advertisement. But old books are still there for those who aren't satisfied with whatever crap you can learn from mass media production.

And while inspiration is great, but if you don't know specific qualities of hydrofluoric acid (about which you can read in books), no inspiration will help you if you attempt to store it in glass containers.

Books can provide massive knowledge for those who seek and can separate diamonds from dirt. Knowledge, which you won't get otherwise, and lack of which can cost you life when it concerns physical side of Alchemy with all those acids, alkali and explosives, and when it concerns more "subtle" matters, when you can intoxicate your "soul", thinking that everything is alright, while it enters the state of irredeemable.

And don't forget that human's mind is heavily limited and you can't learn what you don't know without some external help - be it in form of book or teacher. Basing knowledge purely on one's own "inspiration" is exactly the definition of New Age and its garbage books.
The topic of the thread is: if you are immortal what would you do
This thread was about physical immortality and its aspects. Not about modern New Age crap on inherent immortality. This turn of thread also happened with split of other thread, perhaps we could split this thread too, but I am afraid that there are only few people here who are actually interested in non-New Age/non-religious approach to immortality. I am afraid that this thread will end in jokes, because many people look at physical immortality as a subject to jokes.
 

black

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@Andro

@Warmheart

Thank you both for your open and informative replies.

I'm sure that many people reading what Andro and Warmheart have written will be in uncontrollable fits of laughter believing this to be just another fantasy of those that are very delusional or have taken one to many LSD trips.

Well ... I'm not one of those that are laughing and deep in my heart I feel there is even so much more to this Great Arcanum.

It's posts like these that give me inspiration and hope so that I can continue to study,
meditate, pray and work in the lab ..... Thank you !
 

Andro

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those that are very delusional or have taken one to many LSD trips.
Thanks.

For the psychedelic connoisseurs you can look elsewhere on this forum :)

I'm not one of them, and Warmheart can speak for himself.
 

Awani

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...few people here who are actually interested in non-New Age/non-religious approach to immortality...

Well this thread is in the "spiritual section". If you want to discuss how to actually achieve immortality create such a thread (unless there already is one) in the practical section. I am sure there is an Elixir of Life recipe kind of thread. I would have nothing to say in such a thread. And I personally hope you find a potion that makes you live for a million years. Have fun. This thread was about "what to do if one is immortal" AND "would you envy those that can die if you are indeed immortal"... my position is that I would not want to be immortal... to live maybe 150 years... sure... that would be cool... the few people I have met that are 90+ years are usually looking forward to death. Not because they are sick of this life... but because they want to move on. Kind of the same when you are at a really great party... there comes a time when you feel "alright I've had enough fun" and you simply want to go home.

Let's take Carl Jung and Basile Valentine in comparison...

Valentine is contemporary. I prefer reading texts that are way older than a couple of hundred of years... at least concerning these topics. I would not limit them to alchemy books... most of the alchemy books are fairly modern.

...or have taken one to many LSD trips.

LSD is totally overrated. IMO.

:p
 

Awani

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...But to proceed in my purpose, having once begun, I here describe the Virtues of Antimony, as far as I have experienced them; yet what is hid from my knowledge, I ought to pass over in silence. For it becomes me not to give my Judgement of things unknown, and which I have not with myself experimented, but I leave them... - Basil Valentine

"How can we judge that which we lack direct experience with." - Vincent Cobain, New Age Guru

Same crap, different presentation. The old monks of the 16th century were the New Age gurus of their time. LOL. Valentine was also a chemist. I know a New Age guru who is a skilled bee keeper as well. Her knowledge of bees equal Valentines knowledge of chemistry.

"Most of the beliefs which characterise the New Age were already present by the end of the 19th century, even to such an extent that one may legitimately wonder whether the New Age brings anything new at all."
— Historian of religion Wouter Hanegraaff, 1996

New Age is basically spirituality without religion... or a more free version not restrained by as much dogma... I personally class New Age as a western version of shamanism... it is a result of a "lack in our spirit"... a yearning to return to "the source". What Terence McKenna called the "archaic revival". New Age is probably more healthy for this world than any other so-called movement. I don't personally prescribe to the term or view myself as New Age at all. I am not trying to defend it, but it is not a simple as brushing it off... as if something is not valuable just because it is New Age. Something is not valuable just because it is old either.

Everything becomes "ancient" eventually.

The first New Age guru was Jesus if you think about it. He even looks like a dirty hippie. LOL.

"Love dude... that's where it's at man!"

lead_720_405.jpg


I am afraid that this thread will end in jokes...

"A day without laughter is a day wasted." Charlie Chaplin

:p
 
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Warmheart

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Well ... I'm not one of those that are laughing and deep in my heart I feel there is even so much more to this Great Arcanum.

It's posts like these that give me inspiration and hope so that I can continue to study,
meditate, pray and work in the lab ..... Thank you !
Indeed, there is much to learn about this world (and other worlds). I am glad, my words are of good use to someone :D
Awani said:
Valentine is contemporary. I prefer reading texts that are way older than a couple of hundred of years... at least concerning these topics. I would not limit them to alchemy books... most of the alchemy books are fairly modern.
Older books, while indeed are much more interesting, are destroyed in their majority by christians/muslims and are out of open circulation. Some Alchemy books are extremely old, much older than you can even imagine, but if I will say how old, you will laugh because you never saw those books and I don't want to put too much public attention to them, especially if to consider that I did put a lot of efforts to find them and I don't want to be ridiculed and I don't want to give food to various New Age criminals and "academical" criminals who are also monitoring these forums as guests.

Still, Basil Valentine is a good example of non-New Age book, and it was written in XIV-XV century, which is still far away from the big wave of New Age. His writings are also written on fairly modern European language, so you don't even need to put efforts to learn some old language.
Awani said:
Same crap, different presentation. The old monks of the 16th century were the New Age gurus of their time. LOL. Valentine was also a chemist. I know a New Age guru who is a skilled bee keeper as well. Her knowledge of bees equal Valentines knowledge of chemistry.
Valentine was a "chemist", because people like Waite, Canseliet, Poisson and others from New Age wave interpreted one of his many writings thinking that they know what he was writing about. They were basically putting words in his mouth, ascribing to him experiments he never did and allowing themselves huge freedom in interpreting his 12 Keys.

From point of view of people like Carl Jung, Basil Valentine was "psychoanalitic", who was delving in "mysteries of soul" and "collective subconsciousness".

But if you actually read his books, you will see nothing of the sort. You are judging good texts by what New Age self-proclaimed gurus write about them. Why not judge world from what modern science says about it? That there is no soul, spirit, there is only matter, and that alchemists were just chemists who lived in fantasy to manufacture gold? There, you have easy way, there are easy answers to all the questions.

And you also mislooked that Basil Valentine wrote a lot of stuff on Alchemical Antimony before he concluded with "there is doubtlessly more to that, but that's beyond my current knowledge".

I remember discarding a lot of good books because various garbage people, who are considered by modern mankind to be a very good professionals in their department, were making up fantasies about those old books, ascribing to them something which was never even mentioned in them. Let me share this lesson I got with you: discard everything that New Age "gurus" are writing about old books, most of those "gurus" didn't even read a single page from those books. If you apply effort and personally study old books, you will receive golden fruits. If you choose easy way by taking words of some New Age imbeciles as truth, you will get rotten garbage instead.
New Age is basically spirituality without religion... or a more free version not restrained by as much dogma... I personally class New Age as a western version of shamanism... it is a result of a "lack in our spirit"... a yearning to return to "the source". What Terence McKenna called the "archaic revival".
How "strange" that this "revival" has little relation with authentic Traditions of old. It might be hard to realize but there are many authentic Traditions which still are living (though barely living), and they speak about totally different things than New Age.

New Age is for people who want to look like someone knowledgeable, this movement is for posers and role-players. It is easy to consume because it is based on highly primitive ideas and has barely any even remotely discernible teachings. But if people want to BE knowledgeable (instead of just looking like), they need to put efforts and seek real Traditions, real books, real masters. This is hard path because there is a lot of scam who feeds you with New Age garbage wanting your money, but if you are persistent enough, your efforts will be rewarded.

Carl Jung vs Basile Valentine is a good example, because Jung suffered from extensive mental masturbation, and all his works are basically random combinations of words, while Basile Valentine can teach you so many things, even one page of his writings can give you much more than all works of demented Carl Jung taken together. Easily accessible comparison, and if you are sincere seeker, you will see that this can be extrapolated to comparison between New Age as a whole and real authentic teachings. You have sample of authentic Tradition almost in front of you - in form of writings of Valentine: there, you don't even need to seek hard in case you want to ask me about examples of good stuff.
 
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Awani

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You can say the same about alchemists. A lot of posers and scams. I am only into indigenous wisdom and practices. So I personally don’t find so-called New Age interesting. Although I do not view Jung in such a bad light as you do. Read the Red Book.

Your understanding of the revival is different than mine.

You are looking for X and you might find X in Basil’s work. I am looking for Y. Basil does not know about Y.

:p
 

Warmheart

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You can say the same about alchemists. A lot of posers and scams. I am only into indigenous wisdom and practices. So I personally don’t find so-called New Age interesting. Although I do not view Jung in such a bad light as you do. Read the Red Book.
There are a lot of posers and scams everywhere. This is also the result of world being heavily engulfed in demonic energies in this time: there are lot of posers and it is hard to find truth, everything is turned upside down. But it is still there for those who seek.

I actually did read Red Book. Big example of what kind of result can be achieved if to totally disregard actual learning. Carl Jung never tried to learn, he was big fantasist. You don't have to agree with me. But if you won't be limiting yourself only to this book, you will eventually realize that this book was just a result of a self-deception (if to put it gently).
Your understanding of the revival is different than mine.
I have good example in my country. There is an academic, leading rich life and begging for money to publish his useless research on what is Alchemy (or rather what he thinks is Alchemy).

On other side, we have an extremely good translator who gave up his entire life translating a lot of good Alchemy texts to Russian language. His efforts and sacrifices were gone almost unnoticed by many people (and even criticized by some), because people were too much busy with "revival" books like those of that foul academic. That translator is living in poverty, while that foul academic is living a highly luxurious life and still dares to gather money from outside to publish his useless works.

So what I wanted to say, revival is mostly a very foul term in this age. Instead of reviving, "revivers" are actually trying their best to kill authentic Traditions, while those who represent those Traditions are on the brink of extinction, barely surviving.

Screw "revival", old Traditions need to be SAVED before they are "revived" to absolute death. They didn't die YET, to be revived. Those "revivers" are actually murderers, substituting real stuff with their garbage. Truly Age of Darkness comes soon, ancient teachings will be lost or, as some people say, "revived". I do not envy those people who will live several centuries from now, because there will be no hope to find any good authentic material among fake "revived" stuff. People will be doomed in this manufactured Hell, locked in endless circles of suffering until mythical Savior comes - so most of the legends say :)
You are looking for X and you might find X in Basil’s work. I am looking for Y. Basil does not know about Y.
I won't argue. But if to speak about authentic Alchemy, Basil Valentine is among the best examples of those who was writing about it. Of course his works aren't easily approachable and they are quite complex, that's probably one of the reasons why he isn't popular among New Age people. But once you start finding the keys you'll find reading his books highly rewarding. I have little doubts that some of his material will be of great interest to you, but that's with proper approach to his books, so don't be too fast to judge.
 

Awani

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How can you diss Jung’s imagination? The Red Book is like a diary kind of... no one has to enjoy it... but it is weird to me that anyone takes a dream and dislikes it because it is not factual. LOL.

Your view of revival is different than mine.

I have nothing against Mr. Basil. Nor do I have an interest either in his work. Not currently. :)

:p
 

Warmheart

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How can you diss Jung’s imagination? The Red Book is like a diary kind of... no one has to enjoy it... but it is weird to me that anyone takes a dream and dislikes it because it is not factual. LOL.
You said it yourself, it was just like a diary of dreams. Imagination. So...
Your view of revival is different than mine.
You don't have to agree. Time is a good judge of things.
 

Kibric

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. I do not envy those people who will live several centuries from now, because there will be no hope to find any good authentic material among fake "revived" stuff.
But you are living it now. The whole world is. You think Pompeii happened thousands of years ago. That all sections of your cities were built by you.
History written literally by the winners.
 

z0 K

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Basil Valentine vs Carl Jung? Basil Valentine was a fictitious creation of Johann Tholde to sell books. Carl Jung was a Medical Doctor psychiatrist not a fictitious persona of book publishers.

On this Earth is Hell or Heaven relative to the ignorance of the observer. Some seek Knowledge from Lord of Light to alleviate Ignorance and fall into Belief losing their minds in joy then misery. Sometimes Misery opens the Mind to the Monastery of the Dark Lord which appears to be a Prison. Sequestered in such a Monastery one may succumb to the angst ridden austerities and give up the Ghost becoming a Zombie. On the other hand one may in that dark place where the Light Lord has no power find Soul and Spirit unhindered by belief systems. Such is the Way of the Dark Lord.

Once Initiated one becomes aware of the Zombies and avoids the manipulated paths they follow. In such a Lucid waking state one may come to observe the Parasiti feasting upon the joy and misery of the Human Ghosts creating the Zombies that walk the Earth not unlike the empty characters in a Dream one observes when Lucid in the Dream. Ask them a Philosophical question like "Why are you here?" and you get a blank stare.

Know, Will, Dare, Silence...

For the Lucid there is no going back to the secure ideations of Rebirth and Afterlife beliefs of the Human Ghosts. That Pilgrim has transmuted the Ignorant Human Ghost into Lucid Soul/Spirit empowering the Observation.
 

Awani

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Of course his works aren't easily approachable and they are quite complex, that's probably one of the reasons why he isn't popular among New Age people. But once you start finding the keys you'll find reading his books highly rewarding. I have little doubts that some of his material will be of great interest to you, but that's with proper approach to his books, so don't be too fast to judge.

Above quote one example, but there are plenty more... there is a tendency to "talk down"... as if you are the only one that knows suffering, you are the only one that has read and understood Mr. Basil... the only one that has experienced death up close... the only one that understands the inequality of the world etc etc.

Warmheart said:
But if you actually read his books, you will see nothing of the sort. You are judging good texts by what New Age self-proclaimed gurus write about them.

I think the one that seem to judge a lot is you. ;) Perhaps projection on my part, hard to say... I can only "judge" from what I can read in your posts. LOL.

"How can we judge that which we lack direct experience with." - Vincent Cobain, New Age Guru

Above individual does not exist... just to be clear...

That Pilgrim has transmuted the Ignorant Human Ghost into Lucid Soul/Spirit empowering the Observation.

Amen to that.

This discussion reminds me of the t-shirt I got today, check it out folks:

48398902-1061818390667643-4917461696760512512-o.jpg


:D

:p
 

Warmheart

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But you are living it now. The whole world is. You think Pompeii happened thousands of years ago. That all sections of your cities were built by you.
History written literally by the winners.
Sadly, you are quite right in this regard. However, seems that things are going to be even worse in the future in comparison to what is happening now.
z0 K said:
Basil Valentine vs Carl Jung? Basil Valentine was a fictitious creation of Johann Tholde to sell books. Carl Jung was a Medical Doctor psychiatrist not a fictitious persona of book publishers.
This is just an assumption. However, those who are on the side of this theory allude to the facts that chemical operations of Basil Valentine seem to be relatively modern to the age he theoretically lived. This alone makes me highly doubt in this theory, because Basil Valentine never openly wrote about chemical operations, but some researchers thought that they are probably wiser than all Gods taken together and they know better.

It sounds exactly like when I was writing that some foul academics were making up stuff about what was actually written in the books they probably never even opened. You never questioned yourself why academics mostly quote themselves, each other, they barely if ever actually quote relevant book written by relevant author?

It would also be very strange for some mere book publisher to know so many things, which were openly written by Basile Valentine.

Those who couldn't trace him, of course. If you have attained immortality and can manufacture gold, you become very dangerous person for big rulers of this world, so you have to hide.

And even if to assume that Valentine was fictitious, his books are still worth much, MUCH more than those of Carl Jung, because they disclose a lot for sincere seekers, so much, that there is no doubt that author of those books was Adept. But you most likely only read "12 Keys" and even that is most likely in version with comments by Canseliet, which taints the mind of reader with stuff that Basil Valentine never wrote about.
Awani said:
Above quote one example, but there are plenty more... there is a tendency to "talk down"... as if you are the only one that knows suffering, you are the only one that has read and understood Mr. Basil... the only one that has experienced death up close... the only one that understands the inequality of the world etc etc.
A lot of people claim that they experienced suffering, death, inequality, but when you start knowing them better, they don't show any other signs that they actually passed through it. People can say whatever they want and claim whatever they want and they can even start believing it themselves.

I also saw how fast people change their minds when actual death and suffering enter their lives. Though sadly they can also quickly change their minds back again when some miracle helps them. I know a criminal, whose life was destroyed because of all the crimes she made, she gave up her criminal ways and became like angel in flesh, but when life gave her another chance, she returned back on the way of crimes.

This world is full of illusions, are you sure you aren't stuck in some of them? Even I am not sure about it concerning myself.
Awani said:
Above individual does not exist... just to be clear...
And I thought you miswrote name Curt Cobaine and I never was his fan, so wasn't sure if he wrote any book or not. But as you made up an author, perhaps maybe you could as well right a book of same quality as one written by Valentine or, if you also think he never existed, something on the scale of, let's say, Paracelsus? Even Jean Baptist della Porta kind of stuff would do. Or, in worst case, Albertus Magnus' kind of book.

You say I am using word "judge" a lot. I don't want to show myself as one full of pride, I am actually VERY modest and people who know me can approve it. But I've read a lot of books and had a lot of experiments, talked with a lot of wise people. You don't like books, I am not sure if you did any of physical Alchemy or any other serious Tradition, but approaching it so bluntly, on pure inspiration or basing knowledge on crap like that of Carl Jung's, is like jumping off a cliff. I judge because Carl Jung's works on Alchemy (he dared to pose himself as one who knows Alchemy) are far beyond totally useless in actual Alchemy, CJ had no clue what he was writing about. So when I say "don't judge fast" e.g. here, in this case, I say don't judge but compare New Age authors and old authors - you will see abyss of difference.

Please, don't take it all too close personally, I have big sympathy to you and don't mean to offend you.
 

Warmheart

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Basil Valentine vs Carl Jung? Basil Valentine was a fictitious creation of Johann Tholde to sell books. Carl Jung was a Medical Doctor psychiatrist not a fictitious persona of book publishers.
Also a sad thought came into my mind.

Interesting, how many of the books translated by aforementioned Russian man will be deemed forged and written by translator himself after some time by some academics?
 

z0 K

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This is just an assumption. However, those who are on the side of this theory allude to the facts that chemical operations of Basil Valentine seem to be relatively modern to the age he theoretically lived. This alone makes me highly doubt in this theory, because Basil Valentine never openly wrote about chemical operations, but some researchers thought that they are probably wiser than all Gods taken together and they know better.

It sounds exactly like when I was writing that some foul academics were making up stuff about what was actually written in the books they probably never even opened. You never questioned yourself why academics mostly quote themselves, each other, they barely if ever actually quote relevant book written by relevant author?

It would also be very strange for some mere book publisher to know so many things, which were openly written by Basile Valentine.

Those who couldn't trace him, of course. If you have attained immortality and can manufacture gold, you become very dangerous person for big rulers of this world, so you have to hide.

And even if to assume that Valentine was fictitious, his books are still worth much, MUCH more than those of Carl Jung, because they disclose a lot for sincere seekers, so much, that there is no doubt that author of those books was Adept. But you most likely only read "12 Keys" and even that is most likely in version with comments by Canseliet, which taints the mind of reader with stuff that Basil Valentine never wrote about.

You can believe whatever you want about the persona Basil Valentine or Fulcanelli as well. Johann Tholde was a person with a historical record of achievement. He was a salt manufacturer for profession, a writer and publisher for Art and an alchemist for philosophy. The worth of Valentines books depends on knowledge and experience of the reader. In my opinion his 12 Keys was a take-off of Ripley's 12 Gates.

On a technical level antimony, Sb, has no essential use in the manufacture of the transmutation Stone according to Ripley. Nor does it enter into the process of physical immortality on this earth alchemically speaking.

Alchemists look to Nature for guidance. I have lived a long life so far and have transmuted several times by Nature same as every other human being. First I was born into chaos, an infant unable to differentiate one thing from another for many months. Then over a short period of time the infant gained knowledge and dared to exercise it transmuting in the process into a reasonable child that was no longer an infant in shape or form. The child over time through will power gained more knowledge and transmuted into an adolescent no longer a child in shape or form. And so on, many more times... The infant and child appear to have died as I am no longer them in shape or form. When I peer back into the past I can find their Soul/Spirit still existing here and now.
 

Warmheart

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Alchemists look to Nature for guidance. I have lived a long life so far and have transmuted several times by Nature same as every other human being. First I was born into chaos, an infant unable to differentiate one thing from another for many months. Then over a short period of time the infant gained knowledge and dared to exercise it transmuting in the process into a reasonable child that was no longer an infant in shape or form. The child over time through will power gained more knowledge and transmuted into an adolescent no longer a child in shape or form. And so on, many more times... The infant and child appear to have died as I am no longer them in shape or form. When I peer back into the past I can find their Soul/Spirit still existing here and now.
Transmutation in Alchemical sense means making something more perfect.

Following your logic, when you become old, your own limbs will start defying you and mind will be deteriorating to your own displeasure, will you still be calling it "transmutation"?

If you are going to say that it is period when your wisdom reaches its peak, well, there are syndrome of Alzheimer, syndrome of Parkinson and many other syndromes and pathologies which most of the modern people experience during old age, and all of them point at rather degradation of their "wisdom" and "knowledge" than anything else.

That was exactly the point in example in OP, when old people didn't want to live any more. There is little point when your own body and mind are disobeying you: you are not beautiful, you are not wise, you are not healthy, you are in state of degradation.

What concerns Tholde and Valentine, there are many such stories with other alchemists too: with Fulcanelli, with Eireneus Philalethes, etc. This world is full of deception, it is hard to separate truth from lie, they constatnly go intertwined with each other in this world, but sometimes you can find surprising gems of wisdom where you least expect it.
 

z0 K

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Transmutation in Alchemical sense means making something more perfect.

Following your logic, when you become old, your own limbs will start defying you and mind will be deteriorating to your own displeasure, will you still be calling it "transmutation"?

If you are going to say that it is period when your wisdom reaches its peak, well, there are syndrome of Alzheimer, syndrome of Parkinson and many other syndromes and pathologies which most of the modern people experience during old age, and all of them point at rather degradation of their "wisdom" and "knowledge" than anything else.

That was exactly the point in example in OP, when old people didn't want to live any more. There is little point when your own body and mind are disobeying you: you are not beautiful, you are not wise, you are not healthy, you are in state of degradation.

What concerns Tholde and Valentine, there are many such stories with other alchemists too: with Fulcanelli, with Eireneus Philalethes, etc. This world is full of deception, it is hard to separate truth from lie, they constatnly go intertwined with each other in this world, but sometimes you can find surprising gems of wisdom where you least expect it.

Making something more perfect is subjective and arbitrary based upon the current experience level of the observer. Transmutation is about a change-in-state, growth and evolution from one thing to another, metamorphosis.

Following your logic the description of old age you have given is more about disease than ageing. People suffering from the conditions you have outlined are victims of physical and mental deterioration caused by many variables some of which can be eliminated by behavior changes. If you do not eliminate them then you will suffer the misery of old age diseases and lose your body matter to tiny predators and recyclers.

You will get older and the feces of living will clog your circulatory systems until the obstructions initiate the symptoms of old age diseases ending in death as usual. Alchemists work to remove such feces through their medicines and meditations derived through them.

You miss the point of the metaphor of the infant and child. The physical body will eventually ware out no matter what. It will not be able to carry you further just like the infant and child bodies were not able to carry you further in your continuing metamorphosis. You left them behind and will do the same with the physical body sooner or later depending upon how much you Know, and what you are Willing to Dare in the Silence.

The Taoist alchemists have maintained that besides the physical body we have a subtle body that will outlast the physical one into thousands of years. It will not last at all if you are unaware of it and never exercise the circulations it requires. It will give up the Ghost same as the physical body when it dies. Then the Ghost gets recycled in the MicroCosmic Egg.

This sounds quite fanciful to one not initiated into the Inner Circulation of Light or Qi as taught by the Taoists. To become aware of the Inner Circulation requires repetitive exercises like taught in various Chinese Inner Alchemy practices. One has to achieve at least this basic experience and knowledge to exercise one's own Inner Circulation. From that success arises the potential of giving birth to your Immortal Fetus.

That newly born subtle body is an infant at first then a child and so on until you can operate it to advantage just like you did with your physical body. It takes time and exercise to evolve. If your physical body craps out on you before the subtle one is sufficiently developed then the Ghost gets recycled.

Alchemist and Philosopher Roger Bacon addressed the subject of long life and immortality nearly 800 years ago:

Of Old Age, and Long Life: Chap. VII:
Of Retarding the Accidents of Old Age, and Prolongation of Life.

The furthest attainment, which the complement of Art, joyned with the whole Energy of Nature can reach unto, is the Prolongation of Life to a very old date. How farre this is attainable, manifold experience has shewed us. Pliny reports, That Pellio, a man of strong body and mind, lived much longer then men usually now, of whom OEtavius Augustus enquiring, What course he took to live so long? Was answered aenigmatically, he used Oyl without, and Mulsum within (now according to the opinion of some, it’s eight parts of water, and nine of honey) I might produce many examples of the same quality: as that which fell out in the days of King William; A Countreyman plowing in the field, found a golden vessel, containing a certain liquor, which he supposing to be the Dew of Heaven, washed his face withal, and drunk of it, whereby he became renued in spirit, body and excellence, from a Plow-man he was made a Porter to the King of Sicily. And the Popes Letters assures us, That Almannus, held Prisoner by the Saracens, through the use of a Medicine lived five hundred years. For the King, whose Captive he was, having received the Medicine from the Embassadours of the great King, and being suspitious of them, made trial hereof upon his Captive, which was brought him for that purpose. And the Lady of the Woods in great Britanny searching for a white Hind, found an Olinment, wherewith the Keeper of the Woods anointed his whole body, except the soals of his feet, and he lived three hudred years without any corruption, save in the soals of his feet, which had some passions. We ourselves know it frequent in these days, That plain Countrey men without the advantage so much as of a Physicians advice, live very healthfully an hundred years, or little less. And these are rather confirmed by the operations of Animals, as Harts, Eagles, Serpents, and many others, who by the efficacy of heart or stones, have renewed their youth: And wise men seeing that even bruits could reach so farre to their Prolongation, adjudging it no less feasible by reasonable men, set themselves on the Spurre to find out this secret. Hereupon Artefius from his own ingenuity, having found the Secrets of Stones, Herbs, Sensibles , & c. both for the knowledge of Nature, and especially the Prolongation of Life, did rejoice, that he had lived 1025 yeares. Further, to confirme this Assertion of the Prolongation of Life, it’s considerable, that man naturally is immortal, that is to say, has the possibility of not dying. Yea, even after his fall, he might live a thousand years, though by degrees the length of life was abbreviated. Hence it follows, That this abbreviation is Accidental, and consequentially may be repaired in whole or in part; and upon search we shall find the accidental cause of the corruption, is not from the Heavens, or any other than the defect of true Government of our health. In that our Fathers are corrupt and imbecile, they beget sonnes of a corrupt complexion and composition, and their children upon the same score are corrupted. Thus the Pedigree of corruption is deprived from Fathers to sonnes, until we settle upon our heirs an assured abbreviation of our dayes. Yet this doth not conclude, That to perpetuity there shall succeed an abbreviation of our life, since there is a positive period set to our life, men may live till they be eighty years, though then their dayes be but labor and sorrow.

Now if every man would from the brest exercise a compleat Regiment of heath (which consists in such things as have relation to Meat, Drink, Sleep, Waking, Motion, Rest, Evacuation, Retention, Air, and the Passions of the mind) He might find a remedy resisting his proper malady. For upon the prosecution of such a Regiment, one might arrive at the uttermost limit of that Nature he had from his Parents will permit, and be led to the very last period of Nature (I mean Nature fallen from its original uprightness) beyond which there is no further progress; because it doth little or nothing availe against the corruption of our Ancestours: and yet the fore-mentioned things, as the Regiment of health exacts, wherefore abbreviation of our dayes does not only from our Progenitors, but hath its advantages from the want of Regiment. However the Art of Physick sufficiently determines this. Although nor rich, or poor, wise or ignorant, no nor the most accurate Physicians themselves, do accomplish this Regiment in themselves or others, as every eye can descern. Yet Nature is not deficient in Necessaries or Art any wayes incompleat, but rather is advantagious to make insurrections and irruptions against, and so farre into these accidental passions, as they are either whole or in part rooted out. At first, and in the beginning of our ages declining, the remedy was easie: But since we have five thousand years or more disadavantage, the Cure is more craggy.

But waving the Inconveniences wise men moved by the considerations formentioned, have endeavoured to find out the means and wayes, which not only are forceable against the defects of every mans proper Regiment, but also agains the corruptions of our Parents; Not that hereby they can attain to the years of Adam or Artefius, by reason of the growing corruption, but our dayes may be augmented an hundred years or more, above the ordinary age of most men in these dayes. And though it be impossible absolutly to retard the accidents of old age, yet hereby they may mitigate them, so as life will happily be prorogued beyond the common account, yet alwayes within the ultimate circuit of Nature. There is a bounder of Nature, set in men since their Fall. There is a bounder of every particular man arising from the proper corruption of his Parents. Beyond both these bounders it’s impossible to passe; yet happily one may arrive beyond the latter: nor yet so farre to go beyond it, as that the wisest of men can ever reach the former. Athough there be a possibility and aptitude of Nature to proceed to that boundary our first Parents set them. Let no man think this strange, since this aptitude extends itself to immortality, as appears both before the fall, and shall be evidenced after the Resurrection.

Perhaps you may object, That neither Aristotle, Plato, or Hippocrates, or Galen ever attained that prolongation. I shall answer, They have not attained the knowledge of many ordinary truths, which other ingenious heads have found out; and if so, they may easily miscarry in a business of such weighty consequence, though they made it their study: especially, if we consider, how they were burdened with other impertinences, and so were sooner brought to their gray haires, spending the inch of their Candles in more debased and vulgar subjects, than in finding out the wayes to so great Secrets.

[Frier Bacon His Discovery of the Miracles of Art, Nature, and Magick; Faithfully translated out of Dr. Dees own Copy, by T.M. and never before in English; London, 1659]
 

Warmheart

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Following your logic the description of old age you have given is more about disease than ageing.
But what is an old age if not disease itself.
The Taoist alchemists have maintained that besides the physical body we have a subtle body that will outlast the physical one into thousands of years. It will not last at all if you are unaware of it and never exercise the circulations it requires. It will give up the Ghost same as the physical body when it dies. Then the Ghost gets recycled in the MicroCosmic Egg.
Immortality of subtle body is definitely a good and necessary goal. However, current lifespan of man is barely sufficient for any meaningful progress in regards to immortality of subtle body and spirit. I'd say that one need to work on all 3 "types" of immortality.
Alchemist and Philosopher Roger Bacon addressed the subject of long life and immortality nearly 800 years ago:
It is a very good quote. Also it shows that age (80-ish) of Hippocrates, Galen and other people mentioned was not something outstanding at all, that's to those who keeps clinging to idea that man's lifespan keeps increasing over time. It is also interesting how he mentions growing corruption (which is also another way to say that aging is extremely unnatural thing), but I think it is hopeless to expect modern researchers to even acknowledge the problem of decline of human lifespan over time.

And that makes immortality of subtle body and spirit be rather a secondary task, because you will need enough time in physical body for that. Various ancient texts say that this corruption will eventually make humans' age peak at 10 years and that will make it nigh impossible to achieve any serious goal. But like 10 years is nothing for modern man, so and 100 years is nothing for people from old times.

If people from Roger Bacon's example didn't use their found substance only once, but used it more, there is little doubt that they'd be able to prolong their lives for even longer, practically indefinitely.