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Ozone as the Prima Materia

nav2010

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@nav2010 - In the case of copper, from Ne + 3C + H - the H seems to be acting as another innocent donor. So your total list might be -
H, C, O as the main ones, and Bi as the other one we need not concern ourselves with.

It makes me seriously wonder if N cannot also be an innocent donor. C - N - O in the carbon series of the periodic table.
H,C,N,O.
The N doesn't make the right math though for what you're calling the order of the phoenix.
Anything can be a donor or be massacred as the alchemists call it but has to follow the order of the phoenix which are Gods rules of creation. But it is always involving oxygen and carbon and multiples thereof.
An element can never be greater than the sum of its parts and that's what the order of the phoenix is.
However, there is a stage in nature where a mass can be greater than the sum of its parts or indeed smaller than the sum of its parts.
This is not an element, its a phenomenon I have no name for.
Take for example you have one gram of silver and the silver had 25 atoms (just a figure of speech, not actually true) and a gram of this substance with a sum of parts of 100 atoms. You mix the two and remove the key which keeps the substance out of the periodic table. What happens? The Phoenix instantly knows the sum of its parts 125 and finds a place for it to exist. Could be lead, bismuth, Mercury or anything that fits this imaginary 125 atoms and it will never ever break this rule. If it does then the universe would be chaotic.
If there is no stable element for it to fall into perfectly with electrical balance (atomic stability) then you will create a monster.
Monsters are radioactive isotopes.
 
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nav2010

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I have already wasted 10 grams of gold over my entire alchemical career.

Believe me they are on the periodic table. I once was able to create a metal out of sea salt. It was a red hot iron pipe with celtic sea salt and some amonium chloride in it. The sea salt turned black and gummy looking and then a metal appeared. you have to heat for days at about 900f. The metal seemed to melt but decompose into a glass. I sent it off to some russians and they were trying to get the entire process out of me for them to give me the chromatograph. It turned out to be mostly lead and silicon. There was one peak that they were hiding from me for me to tell them more info but i can see that it did not make a new element but something between metal and salt. I warn you guys that you will be using alot of heat to make iron pipe processes work and i stopped it because the expense was getting too great. The pipe needs to be hot for days. the picture below the small bottle was in an iron pipe for 4 hours.
Adding sulfuric acid to the black mass caused a huge plum of HCL which was so highly charged that I hallucinated.
f521EX8.jpg


feel free to put this as a seperate thread.
Oh I agree they are from the periodic table to begin with and ultimately end up back in it.
But....there is a stage where oxygen renders them what can only be described as a 'soup of not quite knowing what they are yet to be'
I can't think of a name. Structured but structured in a way science cannot explain.
 

nav2010

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Keeping in mind what we've discussed, here we have the massacre of the innocents. Firstly knowing oxygen is blue who can be massacred and who is doing the killing?
We see that heat has now been introduced and we have three lions, black, red and white. What do they signify?
Explain the plate for a bit of fun.
flamel-6.jpg
 

Philosophical

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The salts are trioxides in my own personal belief. But yes, carry on with your own journey. Don't follow my journey and try and compare the two. Each is to his own.
Not at all trying to discourage you here. It's interesting research. Asking for my own curiosity and I guess the metal oxides are still salts, it's true.

Like I said yesterday, there is a language barrier between us at times.
An interesting little experiment for anyone to do.
Apparatus:
Microscope.
Glass beaker.
2 magnesium rods.
12v dc power supply, 2 amp output.
Arc welder.
chemistry frame.
welding mask.
Take a glass beaker full of tap water and build an electrolysis device using the 12v dc supply and ionise the water with magnesium ions until the water changes lustre.
Take the arc welder and place it on 50 amp, put a magnesium rod in the anode and place it in the ionised water. Take the other magnesium rod and put it in the cathode. Put the mask on and place the tip of the cathode near the tip of the anode in the water.
You get an explosive reaction and a plasma arc will short out the circuit.
Take the water and seive out the material in the bottom of the beaker and place under a microscope.
You'll find melted fragments of magnesium but also calcium crystals.
First performed in Japan many years ago.
The reaction. The plasma arc creates a stream of O3 in the arc itself from the water which transmutes magnesium. Mg+O = Ca.
Once you are set up to do that, the periodic table is your oyster.

Reminds me of the sort of material Michio Kushi's Guide to Alchemy book. I know a group of us here got it digitized at one point but I've since, well and truly, lost my copy. The crux of it is exactly what you write here though. Plasma of element + Elements = New Element.
 

Jimmy Rig

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I'd like to know, just to set my mind at ease on the matter, even if it is a bit of a dumb question, why NO3, CO3 in nitrates and carbonates, does not have the same gusto / power toward Nav's path and others, as just the metallic trioxides?
We still have the O3 but bonded to nitrogen and carbon instead of a metal.
Because a metal bonded with a non metal is an ionic substance and has the ability to conduct and transfer electricity or ions when either dissolved in water or in the liquid state (molten). It's like the O needs the metal in order to channel its energy. Agent/patient or to become "ionic". In the solid state, these compounds such as sodium chloride for example do not conduct electricity but solve in water or melt and they do. They also form crystal lattices. The metal is generally pos and non metal negative charged to attract and cancel each other out.

Interesting to me is that hydroxides,when dissolved in water undergo an exothermic reaction and heat the water quite vigorously as they dump their Ions into solution (becoming conductive) Chau -caus-hot-burning. Hall Mark of a hydroxide.. caustic, hot, fiery. Not sure if this still happens without the hydrogen but probably. Hydrogen and oxygen are both very reactive. The metal gives a base, no pun intended. Hope this helps, I'm very much grasping at straws with much of this .
 

Triune One

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Because a metal bonded with a non metal is an ionic substance and has the ability to conduct and transfer electricity or ions when either dissolved in water or in the liquid state (molten). It's like the O needs the metal in order to channel its energy. Agent/patient or to become "ionic". In the solid state, these compounds such as sodium chloride for example do not conduct electricity but solve in water or melt and they do. They also form crystal lattices. The metal is generally pos and non metal negative charged to attract and cancel each other out.

Interesting to me is that hydroxides,when dissolved in water undergo an exothermic reaction and heat the water quite vigorously as they dump their Ions into solution (becoming conductive) Chau -caus-hot-burning. Hall Mark of a hydroxide.. caustic, hot, fiery. Not sure if this still happens without the hydrogen but probably. Hydrogen and oxygen are both very reactive. The metal gives a base, no pun intended. Hope this helps, I'm very much grasping at straws with much of this .
Thanks Jimmy. I think it addresses my question rather well. (y):geek:
 

Jimmy Rig

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"Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material (the fuel) in the exothermic chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction products." ~ google
:unsure:
 

elixirmixer

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This may seem trivial to some of you here, but I've recently realised that most people actually have very little knowledge of mainstream chemistry.

Fire requires oxygen to burn. Like, oxygen is a special element that allows the manifestation of plasma(fire).

Worth considering.
 

black

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Interestingly enough Mr Black sent me a parcel of a few kilos of antimony trioxide for my birthday once.

He said it was his early day experiments and I don't think he continued down that path.
Hi Mr. Mixer

Yes, I think you were looking for some at the time.

I was working with it before I had any understanding about the meaning of Alchemy.

When I began looking into Alchemy I was desperately chasing any possible avenue .... then my Alchemy teacher started helping me by explaining that I was working with chemistry not Alchemy and proceeded to show me the correct Path.... with Alchemy we Evolve the Divine Living Spark of Life that has a Consciousness.

Most students of Alchemy have no idea of what they are looking for ..... I didn't, I was just guessing for some years until my Alchemy Teacher showed it to me.

Chemistry and Archemy are worlds away from Alchemy.
 

elixirmixer

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You have a very unique perspective on Alchemy due to this connection that you have Mr. black.

I'm not sure I am personally able to understand it without you being more forthright about what your theory and perspective is concerning the practice.

But that's okay. I have accepted that now. I'm glad you feel satisfied
 

Triune One

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There are things I've seen that are not in the periodic table, they are not an element, they are suspended somewhere between the processes... and from another post:

This is not an element, its a phenomenon I have no name for.

I was thinking about something I have only ever read of... and not personally experienced in the lab.
But could this not be the reduction of the metals to their prima ens? their first matter?
 

nav2010

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Yes, fire is indeed the rapid oxidization of another material. Fire is important in alchemy but the alchemists of old thought it was the air because they never isolated oxygen. This is where the mystery and formulation of a secret agent was born. We see it as 78% N and 21% O, they saw it as a secret agent within the air.
They saw the sulphur of metals as materialistic matter which could be unlocked, in the periodic table we see the same thing. A fundamental characteristic of metals is the 18 and 32 nucleon and elecron state. What you see in that characteristic is their sulphur.
There are many red herrings in alchemy, you can spend an entire lifetime being wrong, that is the journey.
What matters in the end is you develop an accurate understanding of it through both modern science and the alchemy of old. Doesn't matter what others are doing including myself, what matters is you and your understanding and whether you trust your own judgement. Alchemy is not just an understanding of the universe, it's a journey through your own soul and ultimately it is your own soul through God that will reveal the truth.
 

nav2010

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I posted a plate of the massacre of the innocents. I see there were no takers.
The person riding the black lion has a pair of scales and has massacred no one while the other two are bearing weapons.
The scales represent O2, a balance of oxygen that is of no use. The oxidization or blackness is of no use in alchemy, we seek the white and the red.
That's a start.
 

nav2010

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Why oxygen?
Only you will ever answer that question.
Look at the plate, all the riders only have one leg, the massacred on the ground have a leg or an arm cut off signifying the importance of moving from two to the singular.
The colours are highly important. The whole plate tells a tale and that tale is already inside your soul, you just have to sift through the chaf and your soul will reveal all.
 

Pilgrim

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I posted a plate of the massacre of the innocents. I see there were no takers.
The person riding the black lion has a pair of scales and has massacred no one while the other two are bearing weapons.
The scales represent O2, a balance of oxygen that is of no use. The oxidization or blackness is of no use in alchemy, we seek the white and the red.
That's a start.

These are interesting statements and the Massacre Of The Innocents is an interesting picture too.

It's startling to hear that :
oxidization or blackness is of no use in alchemy

All the texts talk frequently about the putrefaction/black stage. The Raven, Crow etc. Are you suggesting all this was a red herring?

I thought putrefaction was a vital stage to reduce a matter to its first principles, prima materia so it could then be reformed into something else !

My observations of the picture.

Note that there are 6 massacred people below. But notice they are positioned as 3 groups.

3 massacred, 2 massacred and a single 1 massacred. Is this not deliberate?

Notice too the similarity and juxtaposition of the clothing.

Front guy on white dragon has yellow tunic and blue cape.
The single massacred guy has the reverse. Blue tunic, yellow cape.

Don't know if that is relevant or whether it's just the paint palette the artist was using.

You are surely totally on the money with what this all represents.

The change of one substance into another by the massacre of certain atoms and that needs a degree of heat to achieve as indicated by the fire-breathing dog looking beast.

Something else I don't understand is why the primary colour sequence is wrong (i.e. the dragons)

We would generally expect the sequence to go Black to White to Red

Here it's Black, Red, White


The scales to me signified that after the massacre had been perpetrated, Nature then seeks to re-balance everything that is left.
 

Triune One

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Only you will ever answer that question.
Look at the plate, all the riders only have one leg, the massacred on the ground have a leg or an arm cut off signifying the importance of moving from two to the singular.
The colours are highly important. The whole plate tells a tale and that tale is already inside your soul, you just have to sift through the chaf and your soul will reveal all.

So the singular would be singlet oxygen. Interestingly enough, the singlet oxygen does not refer to the fact that it is just one atom of oxygen. it's two. but the electron configuration in the outer shell is only one, versus the triplet oxygen, normal O2, which has 2 configurations of its outer electron shell plus the quantum S=1, which amounts to three. singlet oxygen is just 1. the outer electrons have opposite spin and thus their field CANCEL each other out... again... i think this is the magic. I think this is the key to all free energy devices, scalar wave healing, and now... this. what you are bringing to the table Nav.

Having said that, I wonder about something now.
You said
O2, O4, O6 you lose
O3, O5, O7 etc you win.
So that would work with the dude riding a black horse not killing anything.
He has the balance of Oxygen - O2, O4, O6. Balance like that = no murder of the innocents.

which would indicate that any ODD configuration, in a metallic oxide state, and/or gaseous free form of O3 or singlet oxygen,
would lead to the murder of the innocents. Are these all on par?
Or... are we looking primarily for the singlet oxygen as being the most powerful, O3 as being the runner up and then weaker up into O5?
So O3 might be a satisfactory form but singlet oxygen is best?

the golden crown has 5 spokes. its colour lion is white. (less powerful)
the red lion has a helmet with one point. it is red. (most powerful)
I don't know if i am stretching here.
I am going to assume the white is less evolved / advanced in its evolution than the red.

One thing I notice is the clouds parting in the sky. They are riding off into heaven. could indicate the earthly realm must sacrifice parts of its innocents to allow for the rising up of these other matters -

aside from that, i don't have anything else with the picture.
when was this made? who made it?
that is a curiosity.
If it was made before our scientific understanding of these elements, the person who made it would have
had psychic vision, clairvoyance.
 

Triune One

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aside from that, i don't have anything else with the picture.
when was this made? who made it?
that is a curiosity.
If it was made before our scientific understanding of these elements, the person who made it would have
had psychic vision, clairvoyance.

I did a reverse image search on google and found this:

Ms Fr 14765 f.146-147 The three colours of War, an analagous illustration comparing three horses, co - Nicolas Flamel

then i also found this work, which is very similar. It has all the same element. Better painting than Flamel's.

nav-image-o3-thread2.jpg

Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

Painting by Viktor Vasnetsov
 

Pilgrim

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Having said that, I wonder about something now.
You said

So that would work with the dude riding a black horse not killing anything.
He has the balance of Oxygen - O2, O4, O6. Balance like that = no murder of the innocents.

which would indicate that any ODD configuration, in a metallic oxide state, and/or gaseous free form of O3 or singlet oxygen,
would lead to the murder of the innocents. Are these all on par?
Or... are we looking primarily for the singlet oxygen as being the most powerful, O3 as being the runner up and then weaker up into O5?
So O3 might be a satisfactory form but singlet oxygen is best?

My understanding of what Nav is saying is that it's the Single O atom that does the magic. Not O3 or O5 etc. An odd numbered molecule is the prerequisite though because it has the capacity to donate that single O atom. Whatever odd number it is, it just breaks up into O2 molecules leaving the single O. If you start with O2, O4, O6 then they just split up into O2 molecules = no dice.
 

Triune One

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My understanding of what Nav is saying is that it's the Single O atom that does the magic. Not O3 or O5 etc. An odd numbered molecule is the prerequisite though because it has the capacity to donate that single O atom. Whatever odd number it is, it just breaks up into O2 molecules leaving the single O. If you start with O2, O4, O6 then they just split up into O2 molecules = no dice.
right, or they dont split up at all because they are already balanced and stable.
I like that.
 

black

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The oxidization or blackness is of no use in alchemy
Hi nav2010

There is no way that I could possibly disagree with you more.

I have personally performed the Primary Alchemic Process many times and the Blackness (the Putrefaction) is the beginning and a most essential part of the Alchemic Process to bring forth a living substance.

No Blackness = No Alchemy

Chemistry and Archemy are not Alchemy.
 

Triune One

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Hi nav2010

There is no way that I could possibly disagree with you more.

I have personally performed the Primary Alchemic Process many times and the Blackness (the Putrefaction) is the beginning and a most essential part of the Alchemic Process to bring forth a living substance.

No Blackness = No Alchemy

Chemistry and Archemy are not Alchemy.
Black, we know. we know. we know. we know. we know.
we know your way is the only right way.
we know you're the only one that understands the only right way.
we know other people don't get the only right way.
we know you think Nav doesn't get it.
you've said the same thing so many times.
Aren't you tired of repeating yourself?

the-help-aibileen.gif

For the love of God man...
stop hijacking. @Andro wrote a great mod post a couple of days ago.
Have a little respect toward the ways of this forum.
stop spamming your same idea over and over.

For the sake of sanity, let's just agree you are right.
You have the only right way. OK? You know the only right way.
There. Good. You're the man.
Now... let us talk archemy or non-alchemy or whatever we do
without you needing to repeat yourself over and over.
 

black

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Black, we know.
I am talking about the importance of the Blackness in the Alchemy.

nav2010 said
The oxidization or blackness is of no use in alchemy

Perhaps you can explain the importance or the lack of importance of the Blackness (Putrefaction) in Alchemy.
 

elixirmixer

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I'm with black on this one. Without the blackness of putrifaction, we have error.

Putrifaction is that which unites the spirit with a new living body and rejects that which is superfluous.

Alchemy exists because nature has certain laws that cannot be ignored. Cannot be changed. Cannot be circumvented.

In my hermetic opinion.

Again. It's not what Alchemy can do for ozone. It's what ozone can do for Alchemy.
 

Philosophical

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I'm also with black on this one. There cannot be a blanket statement that the Blackness is of no use in alchemy. Maybe that is the case for this particular path, maybe. As a general statement I think it goes against the word of many reliable philosophers. Blackness doesnt just appear once but throughout the work so idk how it could be completely bypassed.

Here is a good thread discussing just this complete with plenty of textual references: https://alchemyforums.com/index.php?threads/our-blackness-putrefaction.4940/