• The migration to this new platform is complete, but there are a lot of details to sort out. If you find something that needs to be fixed make a post in this thread. Thank you for your patience!

. One Matter - One Vessel - One Fire

JDP

Hermes Trismegistus
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
1,990
I think the quotes from Ripley I provided do confirm what you say. First you dry distill the Green Lyon to get the Most Sharp Vinegar. As indicated in the quotes and what I said above in the thread the names change after certain preparations.

No it is not necessary to carry out the dissolution of the initial Green Lyon in his Most Sharp Vinegar. Ripley gives more than 14 ways of operating with the same Elements obtained from the initial Green Lyon.

But the "Most Sharp Vinegar" or "Secret Water" is not the same substance. It is a production of the destructive distillation of the "Green Lion" which has either been dissolved in "vinegar" (not the "Most Sharp Vinegar" or "Secret Water"; this substance is used in making the Stone or other alchemical "tinctures", not the "Green Lion" itself; it cannot be otherwise since it doesn't exist until the "Green Lion" in question is first composed and then distilled) or not. The "vinegar" (whatever acid solvent Ripley meant by this; for example, in the "Marrow of Alchemy", he says that the acid distilled from common vitriol, a.k.a. "the green lion of fools", can be used in such preparatory operations to "elixirate" the "Green Lion", so by "vinegar" Ripley can easily mean several acid solvents) is optional. The "Sharp Vinegar" or "Secret Water" is not. It is one of the products of distilling this "Green Lion" either previously dissolved in "vinegar" or not.
 

Kibric

Occultum
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jul 24, 2017
Messages
922
"Thy Christian Friend and Servant, W.C. For twice five Hundred"


William Cooper
His Epitaph is literally the work of Philosophers, and yet may revive the old useful Adigy and Motto upon this Authors Tomb-stone, to remem∣ber thy end. For as this flourish∣ing signifies this Author W C. being a Mercurialist, tired of all worldly Inquinaments▪ So it illu∣strates all the planets and their Mercury, and the univer∣sal Spirit and Mercury of the World, and the specificks of Nature; and no less, the true Mercury of Philosophers for this work: free from all filthy corruptions well fitted, and put naked without Garb, or any strange thing into its Glass, and private Philosophical Nest or Vessel, (as into a Grave and Coffin) with constant vapourous heat for Putrifaction, and its true preparation, rectification, and per∣fection, orderly through its progression of Colours, till it come to the true Sulphur of Philosophers, which in the interim, makes good that Philosophick saying,

It tends to Heaven, but the gross Air hinders,
And moisture falne quickly turns to Cinders.
Hence comes these Tears, though there's no cause of grief,
For they but nourish, th' Earth gave them relief.
And though Worms feed upon my Carkass here,
My Soul's in Heaven with my Saviour Dear.

Thus it may appear double you see or one in two, Male and Female, Superiour and inferiour, Gross and Sub∣til, Coelestial and Terrestrial, Sulphur and Mercury, Water and Earth Corruptible and Incorruptible, or Spiritual. And so the parts also are three, Body, Soul, and Spirit; Sal, Sul∣phur, and Mercury; ☉. ☽. & ☿ Calx, Ferment and Tin∣cture; and the very Mercury may be termed threefold, preparing, prepared, and essential, and according to Rip∣ley, and Raimund, calcining, reviving, and essential. So likewise it may be termed four; for the Water, and Earth which are two visible Elements, comprehend Fire and Air, which are the four Elements, which are turned inside outward, whereby they shew their effects and properties. Thus Terra; Stat. unda Lavat, pyr Purgat, Spiritus intrat. The Earth fastens, Moist washeth, Fire purgeth, and Spirit enters. In and for which, also there are four Fires used, Natural, against Nature, Innatural and Elemental; all which, at the last will make a fifth Essence; and so by a perfect Ternary Quadrate, and Quintessential Process, from one, two, three, four, and five. It returns again into one most perfect spiritual substance, and so is Reunited, and raised to a perfect Cir∣cular Centre, a fixt fusible and incorruptible Medicine▪ to make the true Elixir of Philosophers; opening and shut∣ting

it pleasure, giving the eyes of happiness to all that shall enjoy it, to enter to a Kingdom of Health, Wealth, and Honour, and shutting out all ignorant dark Bodies, and Spirits. Thus then at last this Medicine may obtain the name and number, intimated by W. C. which as it is this Authors name, who is but one in Person, and in Figures, twice five hundred; so is the Medicine but one in substance, and in virtue twice five hundred, or a thousand


https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A34451.0001.001?view=toc
 

tAlc

Rectificando
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
286
The Self, One Thing (Emerald Tablet)

You have to find out what it is you're looking for, before you can find this One Thing. The Emerald Tablet speaks about this to me.

Tis true without lying, certain & most true.
That which is below is like that which is above & that which is above is like that which is below to do the miracles of one only thing
And as all things have been & arose from one by the meditation of one: so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation.
The Sun is its father, the moon its mother, the wind hath carried it in its belly, the earth is its nurse.
The father of all perfection in the whole world is here.
Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth.
Separate thou the earth from the fire, the subtle from the gross sweetly with great industry.
It ascends from the earth to the heaven & again it descends to the earth & receives the force of things superior & inferior.
By this means you shall have the glory of the whole world
& thereby all obscurity shall fly from you.
Its force is above all force. For it vanquishes every subtle thing & penetrates every solid thing.
So was the world created.
From this are & do come admirable adaptations whereof the means (or process) is here in this. Hence I am called Hermes Trismegist, having the three parts of the philosophy of the whole world
That which I have said of the operation of the Sun is accomplished & ended.

The Emerald Tablet clearly states, that the wind carries it in its belly... What is in the air that we breath? The most volatile is it not?

''Separate thou the earth from the fire, the subtle from the gross sweetly with great industry'' ... What does subtle mean? Volatile? What does gross mean? Clothes? Superfluous?

Why do you feel the author of the Emerald Tablet felt it neccessary to add ''with great industry''? Other translations say; ingenuity

The All, didn't need to merge a bunch of random elements together, and a bunch of mish mashing. The All, is where everything else came from, and thus it isn't wanting, it has everything it needs, the All is but One Thing, since everything began from the All that is, the One Thing. ''So was the world created.''

I bring this up because Alchemy works on other levels as well.

@JDP

What makes you feel that the alchemists were not a bunch of philosophers, who didn't put their theory into practicality? Was a computer made by accident, or was it made by design? Is this a fair comparison? Separate things, but not made by accident.

Marriage takes two to form the Unity thus Marriage when two come together to be One, to be Whole, symbolically, but practically it's the same thing, just on different levels, thus As Above, So Below.

Why are Yin & Yang, Male & Female magnetic to each other? Is it because these two forces are essentially the same thing but having been separated?
 
Last edited:

JDP

Hermes Trismegistus
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
1,990
The Self, One Thing (Emerald Tablet)

You have to find out what it is you're looking for, before you can find this One Thing. The Emerald Tablet speaks about this to me.

Tis true without lying, certain & most true.
That which is below is like that which is above & that which is above is like that which is below to do the miracles of one only thing
And as all things have been & arose from one by the meditation of one: so all things have their birth from this one thing by adaptation.
The Sun is its father, the moon its mother, the wind hath carried it in its belly, the earth is its nurse.
The father of all perfection in the whole world is here.
Its force or power is entire if it be converted into earth.
Separate thou the earth from the fire, the subtle from the gross sweetly with great industry.
It ascends from the earth to the heaven & again it descends to the earth & receives the force of things superior & inferior.
By this means you shall have the glory of the whole world
& thereby all obscurity shall fly from you.
Its force is above all force. For it vanquishes every subtle thing & penetrates every solid thing.
So was the world created.
From this are & do come admirable adaptations whereof the means (or process) is here in this. Hence I am called Hermes Trismegist, having the three parts of the philosophy of the whole world
That which I have said of the operation of the Sun is accomplished & ended.

The Emerald Tablet clearly states, that the wind carries it in its belly... What is in the air that we breath? The most volatile is it not?

''Separate thou the earth from the fire, the subtle from the gross sweetly with great industry'' ... What does subtle mean? Volatile? What does gross mean? Clothes? Superfluous?

Why do you feel the author of the Emerald Tablet felt it neccessary to add ''with great industry''? Other translations say; ingenuity

The All, didn't need to merge a bunch of random elements together, and a bunch of mish mashing. The All, is where everything else came from, and thus it isn't wanting, it has everything it needs, the All is but One Thing, since everything began from the All that is, the One Thing. ''So was the world created.''

I bring this up because Alchemy works on other levels as well.

@JDP

What makes you feel that the alchemists were not a bunch of philosophers, who didn't put their theory into practicality? Was a computer made by accident, or was it made by design? Is this a fair comparison? Separate things, but not made by accident.

Marriage takes two to form the Unity thus Marriage when two come together to be One, to be Whole, symbolically, but practically it's the same thing, just on different levels, thus As Above, So Below.

Why are Yin & Yang, Male & Female magnetic to each other? Is it because these two forces are essentially the same thing but having been separated?

No, it's not a valid analogy. Computers are complex machines, the product of centuries worth of empirical discoveries in several branches of human endeavor. An engineer didn't just wake up one day out of the blue and put his theories to practice and presto: the computer was born! People have in fact been attempting to build "computers" (keeping in mind that the computer is essentially a calculating machine) for centuries. It is only in relatively modern times that the accumulated knowledge of those centuries has finally allowed for such machines to actually be practical and useful, though.

Again, the alchemists theoretical ruminations about supposed "sulfureous" & "mercurial" "principles" tell us JACK-DIDDLY SQUAT about how and out of what they actually made the Stone. Otherwise most people would eventually have discovered how to make it from those theoretical musings, which the alchemists made no effort whatsoever to conceal. Notice that what they do jealously & zealously conceal are the actual names of the substances they used. In other words: EMPIRICAL INFORMATION, what really counts!
 

tAlc

Rectificando
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
286
What does the word MATTER mean to you JDP? What is Matter, and what is One Matter? Let's see if we can come to am understanding.
 

JDP

Hermes Trismegistus
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
1,990
What does the word MATTER mean to you JDP? What is Matter, and what is One Matter? Let's see if we can come to am understanding.

It means what it literally says: one matter, one substance, 1. It doesn't mean "several matters/substances" or greater than 1. If you start giving it other arbitrary meanings other than what normal, literal parlance means, then you are being tricky. That's exactly what many alchemists were doing with this whole "one matter only" claim. You need to be familiar with their mentality and their theoretical ruminations & assumptions to understand why they could find it justifiable to declare A MATTER COMPOSED OUT OF SEVERAL SUBSTANCES as "only one". Many of the more generous and honest alchemists actually bothered to explain what this "trap" consists of. These last ones are to be praised. The others should be utterly condemned.
 

tAlc

Rectificando
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
286
It means what it literally says: one matter, one substance, 1. It doesn't mean "several matters/substances" or greater than 1. If you start giving it other arbitrary meanings other than what normal, literal parlance means, then you are being tricky. That's exactly what many alchemists were doing with this whole "one matter only" claim. You need to be familiar with their mentality and their theoretical ruminations & assumptions to understand why they could find it justifiable to declare A MATTER COMPOSED OUT OF SEVERAL SUBSTANCES as "only one". Many of the more generous and honest alchemists actually bothered to explain what this "trap" consists of. These last ones are to be praised. The others should be utterly condemned.

out of curiosity,

what do you think of the alchemists who claim that their fire is actually water? How would this water as fire be used in the analysis? Does you believe that these alchemists lied about this fiery water?

Can you name any one matter that isn't a composite of some type containing earth, water, air, and fire,

If matter consists of substances, then an olive branch, under analysis by fire will yield 1. A water, 2. An acid, 3. An alkaline salt, 4.a sulphurous oil, 5. A black empyreumatic oil, and finally 6. A white insipid earth.

All of these substances come from that one matter called an olive branch.
It is one specified type of matter that produces olives.

is a grape not a thing even though it's mainly composed of water, sugar, earth and oil

According to Keely and Walter Russell, as well as the alchemists, matter is infinitely divisible

Do you know if all of your empiricists were able to work their matters using the secret alchemical fire.

Can you say that the correct procedure was used by all those whom you claim failed?

note; Im on mobile, so i am having a very hard time quoting, but this is basically my questions based on what youve said to me in the past regarding One Matter, our last conversation a few months ago, i just cant for the life of me quote right now, but i take it you might remember.
 

JDP

Hermes Trismegistus
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
1,990
out of curiosity,

what do you think of the alchemists who claim that their fire is actually water? How would this water as fire be used in the analysis? Does you believe that these alchemists lied about this fiery water?

No, but it's just an analogy. Some alchemists also called acids "fire against nature", for example. Obviously that the secret solvent or "water" of the alchemists and common acids are not really any "fires", they just seem to have an analogy with it due to their action upon some substances, like metals, for example. Such analogies have even survived into our modern world. A popular brand of sulfuric acid used by plumbers is in fact called "LIQUID FIRE"!:

liquid-fire.jpg


Little do most people nowadays suspect that such an analogy has deep roots in alchemy.

Can you name any one matter that isn't a composite of some type containing earth, water, air, and fire,

Trick question! No, because such "elements" do not exist outside the imagination of Aristotle and his followers (which includes the majority of alchemists, who quite uncritically accepted and adopted his speculations about matter.)

If matter consists of substances, then an olive branch, under analysis by fire will yield 1. A water, 2. An acid, 3. An alkaline salt, 4.a sulphurous oil, 5. A black empyreumatic oil, and finally 6. A white insipid earth.

All of these substances come from that one matter called an olive branch.
It is one specified type of matter that produces olives.

is a grape not a thing even though it's mainly composed of water, sugar, earth and oil

In reality those are complex mixtures of complex organic compounds, not "single/one" anythings like some alchemists envisioned. Now try to do the same with a metal, or even many minerals! This speculative "philosophy" will not work here because we are now talking about simpler inorganic substances that will not decompose with heat, and those that do decompose give less complex products/byproducts. So, in summary, the whole thing is nothing but a trick: trying to fool unwary people into actually working with a single substance (whether a complex organic mixture or simpler substances like minerals), nothing else, from the very beginning, and then trying to make the Stone with it. And I have very bad news for you and anyone falling for this old ruse: it just ain't gonna happen, buds! 2000+ years of accumulated empirical experience with all manner of single naturally-occurring substances denounce such an idea as pure BALONEY.

According to Keely and Walter Russell, as well as the alchemists, matter is infinitely divisible

Do you know if all of your empiricists were able to work their matters using the secret alchemical fire.

Since the alchemists themselves were empiricists (no matter how much they also pretend to be "philosophers" and came up with various edifices of theoretical speculation), yes, obviously that they all worked with that "fire" (i.e. the secret solvent.)

Can you say that the correct procedure was used by all those whom you claim failed?

Huh? You ask some weird and self-answering questions. If they failed, then obviously it follows that they weren't using "the correct procedure". Elemental, my dear Watson!
 

elixirmixer

Thoth
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
2,963
I logged on; and immediately pissed myself laughing.

I love this zone.... Hahhah well done Awani. Go JDP!!! Hahaahahahahahahaahahahah. Lovin it.
 

zoas23

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
1,594
No, but it's just an analogy. Some alchemists also called acids "fire against nature", for example. Obviously that the secret solvent or "water" of the alchemists and common acids are not really any "fires", they just seem to have an analogy with it due to their action upon some substances, like metals, for example.

Any example in which an acid is called "fire against nature"?
I was thinking about Bacstrom who uses the expression a lot, but he doesn't really mean an acid, but mostly:
Natural Fire = A fire that is provided by nature without the need of any art (in some cases he mentions gold, but actually the "dorman fire" of gold, which has to be released).

Unnatural Fire= the solvent he was using... unnatural because it is not directly provided by nature, but it needs to be obtained by a proper use of the art (even if it is in nature, but nature by itself does not provide it in a way that can be used... somehow following your usual logic of "nature by itself doesn't make the stone")

Fire against nature = the solvent is meant to dissolve gold in its whole (tincture and body).... So the natural fire + unnatural fire become the fire against nature.

... Of course, the meaning of some terms change a lot from author to author (I.e, I was thinking about Bacstrom and he clearly -in some texts- goes very strong against the use of the word "salt", even if he is using the same thing that many people have called "salt", but he doesn't want to call it "salt"). So, do you remember any text in which the "Fire against nature" is explicitly an acid?
 

JDP

Hermes Trismegistus
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
1,990
Any example in which an acid is called "fire against nature"?
I was thinking about Bacstrom who uses the expression a lot, but he doesn't really mean an acid, but mostly:
Natural Fire = A fire that is provided by nature without the need of any art (in some cases he mentions gold, but actually the "dorman fire" of gold, which has to be released).

Unnatural Fire= the solvent he was using... unnatural because it is not directly provided by nature, but it needs to be obtained by a proper use of the art (even if it is in nature, but nature by itself does not provide it in a way that can be used... somehow following your usual logic of "nature by itself doesn't make the stone")

Fire against nature = the solvent is meant to dissolve gold in its whole (tincture and body).... So the natural fire + unnatural fire become the fire against nature.

... Of course, the meaning of some terms change a lot from author to author (I.e, I was thinking about Bacstrom and he clearly -in some texts- goes very strong against the use of the word "salt", even if he is using the same thing that many people have called "salt", but he doesn't want to call it "salt"). So, do you remember any text in which the "Fire against nature" is explicitly an acid?

The French chymist Blaise de Vigenère, who was very familiar with the works of the "Lullian" alchemists (who invented this terminology), mentions it a couple of times:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/47365/47365-h/47365-h.htm

"But to abbridge (for this Aqua vitæ is in very small quantity and very uneasy to make) if you passe two parties of water of the departure, that dissolves the silver upon one party of the salt of lead, this will do the same effect for the transmutation of metals, but not within a mans body, where it must not in any case bee applyed, except after great sweetning, that is to say, a demi sextier of the dissolution of strong water, to make evaporate three or four pails of water, running down within by a filter to the measure that elevates the strong water with the spirits and malignity of this fire against Nature."

"But strong waters, which dissipate and ruine all, are this strange fire, and so Alchymists call them, and fire against nature, externall fire, and other the like exterminatives. Certes if the effects of Cannon Powder be so admirable, consisting of so few species, and ingredients, which may be well called the true infernall fire, the devourer of mankind. The action of strong waters is no lesse which burne all, being compounded onely of two or three substances, that which wee commonly call the Separator, Salt-peter, Vitriol, or Allum Ice, and this dissolves Silver, Copper, Quicksilver, and Iron in part. La Regalle which is no other thing then the preceding rectified upon Salarmoniac, or common Salt, dissolved partly with Iron, Lead, Tinne, and intameable Gold, with all sorts of fire. It is true, that strong waters doe not destroy metals, that they returne not to their first forme and nature, but drawes them to water, and a melting liquor."

Notice that Vigenère is well aware that the claim by some alchemists that mineral acids "destroy metals" is incorrect, as they can be recovered intact from their solution in such solvents. This had already been pointed out at least as far back as the 15th century by the English alchemist Thomas Norton in his "Ordinal of Alchemy", who incorrectly thought was the method par excellence of the "multipliers" he keeps maligning (the main technique of these medieval proto-chymists was in fact cementations, not solutions in corrosive menstruums), and uses the example of silver dissolved in such corrosive solvents as a specific example (Norton quite correctly says that the silver is recovered intact from such solutions, both in nature as well as in weight. This applies to common/vulgar aqua fortises, NOT to the "gradatory" ones, though, which are more complex productions of transmutational chymistry. Some of these can make silver yield small amounts of gold.)
 
Last edited:

Auroboros

Visita
Mysterious Stranger
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
16
Hi All,

I would like to throw my 2 cents into this discussion concerning the 'One Matter, One Vessel, One Fire' in hopes of contributing something useful to the discussion. I believe that the 1/1/1 statement is accurate - except I view it as a Philosophical Metaphor and not necessarily an actual 'recipe' for the stone. As I am sure everyone is aware here, all Philosophical words are actually used in order to explain functions/appearances/compositions & etc. rather than their common usage. Therefore when one speaks of a vessel, it's not necessarily a glass vessel as what comes first to our mind but something in which holds something else within it & keeps it contained - much like a body would. I believe that the word left out by the Philosophers when speaking of the 1/1/1 is the word SECRET for when you place secret in front of Matter, Vessel, & Fire it makes it clear that what they are describing is not so much the recipe but actually its construction & form. The secret matter would constitute the internal composition (spirit) which is made up of what's placed within the secret vessel (body) and cooked/enlivened by its secret fire (soul). This is just my comprehension of this enigma of the Philosophers and I am sure there are many more but this makes the most sense to me and I hope this will be helpful to the discussion!

~Auroboros
 

JDP

Hermes Trismegistus
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
1,990
Hi All,

I would like to throw my 2 cents into this discussion concerning the 'One Matter, One Vessel, One Fire' in hopes of contributing something useful to the discussion. I believe that the 1/1/1 statement is accurate - except I view it as a Philosophical Metaphor and not necessarily an actual 'recipe' for the stone. As I am sure everyone is aware here, all Philosophical words are actually used in order to explain functions/appearances/compositions & etc. rather than their common usage. Therefore when one speaks of a vessel, it's not necessarily a glass vessel as what comes first to our mind but something in which holds something else within it & keeps it contained - much like a body would. I believe that the word left out by the Philosophers when speaking of the 1/1/1 is the word SECRET for when you place secret in front of Matter, Vessel, & Fire it makes it clear that what they are describing is not so much the recipe but actually its construction & form. The secret matter would constitute the internal composition (spirit) which is made up of what's placed within the secret vessel (body) and cooked/enlivened by its secret fire (soul). This is just my comprehension of this enigma of the Philosophers and I am sure there are many more but this makes the most sense to me and I hope this will be helpful to the discussion!

~Auroboros

If you take such an interpretation, then the suggestion is actually that at least 3 substances (i.e. "matter/spirit", "vessel/body", "fire/soul") are being handled to make the Stone, not literally "one". Many alchemists affirm this (while others say they are four, and some even five.)
 

Michael Sternbach

Occultum
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Feb 20, 2015
Messages
684
Hi All,

I would like to throw my 2 cents into this discussion concerning the 'One Matter, One Vessel, One Fire' in hopes of contributing something useful to the discussion. I believe that the 1/1/1 statement is accurate - except I view it as a Philosophical Metaphor and not necessarily an actual 'recipe' for the stone. As I am sure everyone is aware here, all Philosophical words are actually used in order to explain functions/appearances/compositions & etc. rather than their common usage. Therefore when one speaks of a vessel, it's not necessarily a glass vessel as what comes first to our mind but something in which holds something else within it & keeps it contained - much like a body would. I believe that the word left out by the Philosophers when speaking of the 1/1/1 is the word SECRET for when you place secret in front of Matter, Vessel, & Fire it makes it clear that what they are describing is not so much the recipe but actually its construction & form. The secret matter would constitute the internal composition (spirit) which is made up of what's placed within the secret vessel (body) and cooked/enlivened by its secret fire (soul). This is just my comprehension of this enigma of the Philosophers and I am sure there are many more but this makes the most sense to me and I hope this will be helpful to the discussion!

~Auroboros

Yes, this makes sense. Spirit, soul and body also bring to mind (no pun intended) the three principles sulfur/mercury/salt that are their equivalents and that Paracelsus (who introduced this concept) associated with the Holy Trinity.

Of course, the Trinity is thought of as One in Christianity, so there could be a further explanation in this why some Alchemists (many of whom were Christians) referred to 'one matter', when they meant a tripartite composition.

Just a thought, in extension of your hypothesis.
 

Auroboros

Visita
Mysterious Stranger
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
16
If you take such an interpretation, then the suggestion is actually that at least 3 substances (i.e. "matter/spirit", "vessel/body", "fire/soul") are being handled to make the Stone, not literally "one". Many alchemists affirm this (while others say they are four, and some even five.)

JDP,

Four and five substances sounds a lot like a metaphor for the 4 elements and the 5th (Quintessence). I never look at the literal meaning first as lot of what the Philosophers state is multi-layered which is why it's so difficult to decrypt their sayings (unless you speak the language of the Philosophers). This concept is especially true for words/phrases sounding so obvious written in 'common' terms, on which we find is always a prefixed warning stating to never follow them to the letter in every true philosophical work on Alchemy.

Yes, this makes sense. Spirit, soul and body also bring to mind (no pun intended) the three principles sulfur/mercury/salt that are their equivalents and that Paracelsus (who introduced this concept) associated with the Holy Trinity.

Of course, the Trinity is thought of as One in Christianity, so there could be a further explanation in this why some Alchemists (many of whom were Christians) referred to 'one matter', when they meant a tripartite composition.

Just a thought, in extension of your hypothesis.

Michael,

I think you hit the nail on the head - multi-layered meaning. Mercury/Salt/Sulfur - Spirit/Body/Soul - Matter/Vessel/Fire - Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Yes you are right, a lot of Philosophers were heavily influenced by Christianity which had a profound impact on their concepts of the creation of the Universe. This is why true authors of this Art are called Philosophers and not simply Alchemists/Chemists, and many of them make this distinct division. The Philosophers see the spiritual incorporated into the material world and explain it as such, through enigmas, metaphors, mythology, scripture &c. An example can even be seen in the story of Christ being killed/putrefied on the cross then sealed within a tomb in which he rose again with a new body, a Divine being, who has ever lasting life (all very important concepts concerning the great work). The Philosophers also borrowed a lot from Genesis in order to explain their views on creation and how the 'first matter' came into being. If you aren't familiar with these stories or the mythology it can be fairly daunting task of interpreting a Philosophers mindset and unraveling it all to make sense. A lot of authors state that the whole 'recipe' can be written on a single page of paper it's so simple, so you can imagine how a 400+ page book is merely just 'fluff' with a few pearls of wisdom cast!

~Auroboros
 

Auroboros

Visita
Mysterious Stranger
Joined
Oct 23, 2018
Messages
16
I just wanted to add that I must apologize if my discussion has come off topic. As I am slowly progressing through the replies on this thread, I realized Andro's initial post was more in line with sharing what we use personally as our "one matter, one vessel, one fire" (within the context of figuring out the stone of the philosophers) - not so much a philosophical discussion on its ægnimatical meaning. I hope a discussion is still appropriate, if not please let me know where we can continue this discussion (as I love alchemical poetry). As for what is physically (commonly) the meaning of the 1/1/1, a lot of Artists are fairly consistent with the interpretation being a male & female sperm/seed as the matter (Mercurius duplex), an egg shaped vessel, and a dual fire, the fire of nature.

~Auroboros
 

tAlc

Rectificando
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jul 29, 2018
Messages
286
Yes, this makes sense. Spirit, soul and body also bring to mind (no pun intended) the three principles sulfur/mercury/salt that are their equivalents and that Paracelsus (who introduced this concept) associated with the Holy Trinity.

Of course, the Trinity is thought of as One in Christianity, so there could be a further explanation in this why some Alchemists (many of whom were Christians) referred to 'one matter', when they meant a tripartite composition.

Just a thought, in extension of your hypothesis.

Right you are in my opinion, and with perfect unity (quintessence) it really does become One Thing. Marriage is a symbolism of this quintessence, which I feel the Alchemists used themselves to describe how 3 things become One Thing.

Of course however, JDP is under the impression that the Alchemists literally... meant a completely single thing outside of unity and marriage, I'd say his ideology is closest to that of a single element... not realizing the fact that his knowledge of what Matter is, goes only as far as his awareness takes him. He still awaits the Science Community to help discover things for him. He still needs to shovel through the matrix... how deep does the rabbit hole go? Really, who knows!

Just my two cents!

As Above, So Below
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
I'm IN

OK...
I feel I've shared enough about this path for now.

I'll only add that I've peformed this path myself last year, and the results have been quite satisfying. (don't ask)

However, I did make a few mistakes (not all under my control), which I am going to rectify this time around.

I will gladly share more about my experiences, if more people will actively participate in discussion/sharing and praxis alike - but it doesn't look like this is going to happen...

Otherwise, this discussion will move to 1x1 communications with the very few who are truly interested.

In any case - if you take the trouble to search, find and read the related thoughts of Bacstrom, Tugel, Vaughn, Fleisher and also Urbigerus (Circulatum Majus) to some extent, you will have more than enough information to understand and hopefully even achieve success with this path.

Also, please do not forget that the time factor is of essence in this approach.

Eile mit Weile ;)
My most sincere Best Wishes to everyone interested ! ! !


Hello Andro.

Thank you for starting this topic. I'm going to start it too.
I'm reading the full text of the thread and I will do it, even with a low quantity of material.
Due to Covid19 restrictions, it was impossible for me to collect dew this year, I will do it as a final shot (out of time) at the Capricorn full moon. I will be in the countryside and will be able to do it. Lets hope there's some fat (hope, with low faith :D) in it.
I will be collecting some other magnets meanwhile.
 
Last edited:

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
In Section 1.5 of Part 2 of Compass of the Wise, the anonymous author quotes "the son of Sendivogius" (author of the Waterstone of the Wise) as follows:
In these few lines the author has taught the whole process of Nature and the Art, omitting however the manipulations. Therefore, at every beginning, the Artist must divide and grind this hard Stone, and after that divide it again with the Philosopher Hammer, into the three first beginnings or magical Elements and restore it, so that a fourth something, which is the curse, be separated from outside, and it can thus be delivered up to Nature for its further inner lapidation. All the Wise assert this, saying that it would be impossible to reach the Prima Materia (ie, the Hyle primordiali) without opening up the hard bonds.

They further explain later on that by the Philosophical Hammer they mean the maical fire or steel (which the Ram hides in its belly).

Hello all.

I don't know if there is a relation here, but there is a stone that grows inside de Ram that was used in the past against venoms, namely arsenic. The Bezoar Stone. Nowadays it's very hard to see or find references for it, but it was highly valued by our predecessors. In our country, in the northern mountains and until 40 years it was used in the preparation of popular medicines by "endireitas" our version of a naturopathic practitioner.

pomet-bezoar-goat-_1725_watermarked.jpg

bezoar-stone_med-journal-of-aus-1986_watermarked.jpg

basin-with-bezoar_med-journal-of-australia-1986_watermarked.jpg

Bezoare.jpg

MHQgoPe-BjgYPEGI8HlBq4NuuXol2EKLu7Ltoj57jwZ_2zUmLGwLL50sF5acwx3rDcQH5udQgjJ5r825bHceRjy1pCHg454nhykXMFggiuw5vPFs7gG7ic83-ueruLMEi1V4vpM8VaySNsS0iXlOirg-lA9d9Wzod5OsWN3U6X6B1FElncZ3o9SLy489dSsMm4yt3nJwUOiq5AK4QHB2Bh27SUBvOwTBk8fZUBMbNOZQOGR2_VkrA3edra1oePY4IbV0xWRVfeW3yhNLhJecgg9-cf_w2_Nw2tPeyrYEPEaag39AVUQuLoMYzJBJPJDcC22IZfIYzXhaen-EaTMZaM0rfgoMZvscDsX4_7c-Ex6rMKZ7-_-V8_ftgyD7SdPZ0cKnhYeh4KLt7JKjzd95SLvlXgr97m2CTgDeQXHW-lFQaaV-fxAPXEYQLbWBVCTrMEsuYWrL6czKQu4Bxkp5mHoglVbEztHfOlEjjQC_qD7IXD2u-0sAkds8XTG_F-52Pm6tDlCPWbwyg8nbfFnQ9NQ3jlLzXPnEJ6G6LFY41RMdWA2DQdWCTjkywRd47AyJZaxxexS6S3wqFWbbiQzFnTVasSc21N9tgzCZGu2kSV9J-czcPNzqphxzB92VN0LTO2FDVECxx3o-NoZEsbPkqemMDS0dY7zPjm3w=w746-h809-no


More info here and here
 

Kibric

Occultum
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jul 24, 2017
Messages
922
Cool info. There is a connection to the prima materia and magical fire. Its part of the code this author uses.
Its clever, you have to know about Bezoar stones beforehand. You don't need an actual Bezoar stone, nor do you need a rams belly.
a reference to a magical heat hidden in a rams belly is a wink and a nod to Bezoar stones contents and formation. A learned physician might pick up on the reference back then.
 

black

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jun 12, 2011
Messages
1,470
The Ram.

In the house of Aries by way of the Bull

Out of the earth I did gradually pull

With much care and sagacity

The Key to Gods Treasury.
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
Cool info. There is a connection to the prima materia and magical fire. Its part of the code this author uses.
Its clever, you have to know about Bezoar stones beforehand. You don't need an actual Bezoar stone, nor do you need a rams belly.
a reference to a magical heat hidden in a rams belly is a wink and a nod to Bezoar stones contents and formation. A learned physician might pick up on the reference back then.

Hi Kibric. Thank you for your input.
Yes, the stone/heat (temperature) is very clever. Again... gentle temperatures.
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
The Ram.

In the house of Aries by way of the Bull

Out of the earth I did gradually pull

With much care and sagacity

The Key to Gods Treasury.

Hello Black.
The Dew?

Thank you for your comments and sharing!
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
427
I'm at page 37. Will call it a night! :D
Got some things to "relege" and others to take for my dreams today. After finishing the reading and meditate on some things I will try to make a resume of the main things I got from this topic. I started to read the Spiritus Mundi, but I stopped to be focusing on one subject at a time.

Years of work and sharing in these threads. Could be more, but human nature tends to manifest fog, turning Avalon into it. Its not easy to control our fog...