Lucid Dreaming

[Frater IA]

I started last night (technically this morning) by openly saying "I committ myself to remember my dreams and those messages given to me in them". Which I plan to say every night as a good start. It was kind of difficult to remember it once I work up, however, I go a good chunk of it. With this I need to learn about working with symbols and such, while I didn't see any direct symbols (that I noticed), it is still quite vague as if it had any meaning. However, wrote it all down anyway.

-So where, is a good reference to go to, for symbols found during lucid dreaming?

-Is it worthwhile to try to assume that a symbol I see in a dream has any bearing on its "actual" use or meaning in modern day English speaking American society, or is it far more cryptic like in Kaballah?

-Sample, there was a doctors examination table, like you would sit on during a visit to a family doctor. This could ellude to so many different things it gives me a headache thinking about it, anyone have any ideas?

-So since this happened Monday morning, I should wait till next Monday morning to attach a dream to this story?

Thank you in advance.
770

 

[Andro]

I have found it to be in many ways comparable to Shamanic States of Consciousness. Essentially, a Shamanic Journey is no different from a Lucid Dream, except a few variables (for example, a well trained shaman can lucid dream without being physically asleep, etc.) Neither Lucid Dreaming nor Shamanic Journeying require psychedelic aids, however those can be an option for those so predisposed.

You can start by reading This Book and get a taste of what's possible.

It can be taken much further than the book does, but ya gotta start somewhere...

If you have your own repertoire of recorded experiences with lucid dreaming, you're welcome to share them on this thread.

Also worth mentioning is that Lucid Dreaming is quite different from OBE, but there are also many similarities in what can be achieved. Having personal experience with both, I can say (at least for myself) that Lucid Dreaming may be seen as a relatively more potent and open-ended tool for exploration, healing and even liberation. Neither is difficult to master, but both require the three P's... Read the book

 

[vigilance]

If you don't sleep for long enough, the astral will start to "leak" into the real world, as well.

" 'For those whose goal is self-transcendence, fasting, insomnia, and physical pain are 'Alternatives'; they bring about a change of state, they cause the patient to be other than he was. When the body goes hungry, there is often a period of unusual mental lucidity. A lack of sleep tends to lower the threshold between the conscious and the subconscious." - Aldous Huxley

 

[White Belt]

Transmission of concsiousness

I have found it to be in many ways comparable to Shamanic States of Consciousness. Essentially, a Shamanic Journey is no different from a Lucid Dream, except a few variables (for example, a well trained shaman can lucid dream without being physically asleep, etc.) Neither Lucid Dreaming nor Shamanic Journeying require psychedelic aids, however those can be an option for those so predisposed.

You can start by reading This Book and get a taste of what's possible.

It can be taken much further than the book does, but ya gotta start somewhere...

If you have your own repertoire of recorded experiences with lucid dreaming, you're welcome to share them on this thread.

Also worth mentioning is that Lucid Dreaming is quite different from OBE, but there are also many similarities in what can be achieved. Having personal experience with both, I can say (at least for myself) that Lucid Dreaming may be seen as a relatively more potent and open-ended tool for exploration, healing and even liberation. Neither is difficult to master, but both require the three P's... Read the book

I already started practicing again and this book working.
Thank you for sharing, this is a favorite topic of mine. I often get the glassy eyed look or the vague comments about "That's crazy!" Before conversations of lucid dreaming dies out.

I have been having lucid dreams since I was little. Only later on in my teens did I start to get more interested as a result of visiting places I had never been in waking life but had visited many times in dreams. The impression of visiting a dream place in reality, a neighborhood I had only been to in dreams, suddenly realizing that my new friends house I had already visited many times while sleeping.

It was a hard to shake experience and was only the first of many that led me to start keeping a dream journal next to my bed, something I could write frantically in, half asleep, half in dream, scribbling what flotsam was left from the dream before it rapidly faded from my slowly awakening mind.

I have and will share some interesting dreams from my journal, I lose them journals quite often sadly. But I think I would like to practice some of these techniques in this book some more, because they are already working. Only one night of practice and I almost got the hands trick to work before other dream phantoms distracted me.

Lucid dreams have always had a strange attraction for me, I have often been a little scared of their power, fortelling the future or predicting future events.

This happened a month or two ago ,

" There was my best friend dressed in a tuxedo and so was I, suddenly I am lucid, this is a dream, I can see a large ballroom party I know instantly that this is my best friends wedding, and he wants me to hang out with a close friend, well we are not close any more since we have not talked or hang out in 5 or 6 years and I don't know why, I wake feeling like I should tell my friend about his impending wedding."

The next day my friend invited me to watch Scary Stories to tell in the Dark at the movie theatre. After I sit down and get my seat my friend says " Man, Trini was supposed to be here already I bought his ticket."

My head about exploded, I quickly explained the wedding dream before my long lost friend walks in and could barely focus on the rest of the movie. The impression that my dream had just seeped into reality was almost unreal.

 

[Andro]

I already started practicing again and this book working.

Interesting, you are the only one who replied so far... AND positively! Thanks...

Lucid Dreaming and OBE are IME the MOST powerful tools for exploring the Omniverse (and the Ultimate Reality beyond it). Not everyone has what it takes to pass through all the "traps" and "pitfalls", but it's much better than speculating, theorizing, rationalizing, analyzing texts, etc...

Direct experience is where it's at, preferably WITHOUT the use of "Plant Helpers" (those CAN help, no doubt, but the realms one is taken with these "helpers" are confined within the built-in/inherent limitations of such "helpers". Plus, they all have their own personalities and agendas... So IMO it's best to practice/rely "on one's own juices". IMO.

This being said, I have recently had a few experiences (as a practicing Shaman) working with people who had taken psychedelic aids deliberately for our session, and I must admit it was a lot easier for me to lucidly enter their more "inner" areas and edit their more problematic narratives, thus achieving more profound healing results. Note: I did NOT personally partake of any "helpers", apparently all I needed was better/deeper access to the person I was working with...

Most people have so many subconscious blockages, it can make a Lucid Dreaming Shaman's work a bit easier if they are in a more "surrendering" state.

Also, all the more reason to have plenty of trust in the Shaman you are working with, because as much as they can heal, they can also cause plenty of damage, if they are unethical or otherwise ill-inclined.

The better news is that if the Shaman you are working with is not that experienced and/or not that powerful, they won't be able to cause too much damage... It's the experienced and powerful ones who can facilitate the greatest healings but also cause the most damage. Fortunately, there aren't many of those

 

[Dendritic Xylem]

I think cannabis might suppress these abilities. When I smoke daily I almost never have dreams...or at least I rarely remember them. During/before puberty I had a few mild OBE, and many lucid dreams. These dreams weren't very profound. Mostly just sexual fantasies since it was around puberty. Started consuming cannabis at age 14. Then the lucid dreams completely stopped.

I've had experiences with psilocybin, mescaline, lsd analogues, dmt, and some random RC's. Didn't notice any influence on dreams, but sleeping wasn't the goal during these experiences. I also haven't done psychedelics habitually/daily for extended periods, so not sure how that would influence things. Microdosing has become popular in the last decade. I'm planning on eventually trying this with Panaeolus cyanescens to see how it affects dream states. But so far, a sober mind has increased my dream activity more than an altered mind.

 

[Andro]

I think cannabis might suppress these abilities.

It does that.

a sober mind has increased my dream activity more than an altered mind.

There ya go

I'd also suggest to "micro"dose on your own internal juices.

A lucid life (whether "dreaming" or "waking" - same difference, ultimately) is perhaps one of the most powerful tools at our disposal.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

Unfortunately, I became interested in lucid dreaming almost 50 years ago, and have read numerous books on the subject. I have also practiced very frequently over the course of that period. Not once have I had any success in all that time. Perhaps only certain people are able to do it.

In terms of out-of-the-body experiences, I have only had one, perhaps about 30 years ago. It was completely spontaneous, and happened while resting calmly during a late afternoon while totally awake (slightly meditative state). I suddenly found myself floating near the ceiling, with 360 degree peripheral vision - very odd. I could clearly see my body below me, and the shock made 'me' immediately return to the body. I have tried to have that experience, again during the same time I tried lucid dreaming, but never once have I managed to do it deliberately.

 

[Andro]

Perhaps only certain people are able to do it.

Everyone dreams. You just have to find the right "trigger" or "hack" (for you) to program/incept yourself to remember. Also, sporadic is much less effective than continued persistence. I mean, each and every night before you sleep. And there are daytime practices too. You just have to persist and practice every day, even it it takes many months to achieve a few seconds of lucidity. It gets better from there.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

Everyone dreams. You just have to find the right "trigger" or "hack" (for you) to program/incept yourself to remember. Also, sporadic is much less effective than continued persistence. I mean, each and every night before you sleep. And there are daytime practices too. You just have to persist and practice every day, even it it takes many months to achieve a few seconds of lucidity. It gets better from there.

I tried it almost nightly for several years, after that quite frequently for decades. Even now, I try it several times a month.

 

[Andro]

I tried it almost nightly for several years, after that quite frequently for decades. Even now, I try it several times a month.

Some suggestions:

1. Perhaps alter the techniques you've been using and switch to something that may work better for you.

2. Also incorporate daily practices, such as remembering to genuinely "wonder" to yourself several times a day if you're currently dreaming or not.

3. Prolong the state between wakefulness and sleep for as long as you can. This is the best "zone" for auto-inception.

4. Maybe you know about this one, it's an old trick: Go to sleep in the afternoon holding an object in your hand that extends beyond the bed. Once you fall asleep, the object falls to the floor, makes some noise and wakes you up. The micro-moment when this happens may lead to powerful revelations for some.

5. Use repetition obsessively when reciting whatever mantras/affirmations you may use for this purpose.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

Some suggestions:

1. Perhaps alter the techniques you've been using and switch to something that may work better for you.

2. Also incorporate daily practices, such as remembering to genuinely "wonder" to yourself several times a day if you're currently dreaming or not.

3. Prolong the state between wakefulness and sleep for as long as you can. This is the best "zone" for auto-inception.

4. Maybe you know about this one, it's an old trick: Go to sleep in the afternoon holding an object in your hand that extends beyond the bed. Once you fall asleep, the object falls to the floor, makes some noise and wakes you up. The micro-moment when this happens may lead to powerful revelations for some.

5. Use repetition obsessively when reciting whatever mantras/affirmations you may use for this purpose.

I've tried all but Number 4. Seriously - I've tried just about everything. There might be something in my general or specific makeup that prevents me from accomplishing this. For one thing, I have a disorder that generally results in a lack visual memory. Most of my dreams involve ideas and puzzles rather than visual stories. This doesn't mean that I don't sometimes dream vague shapes, with the 'memory' of what that shape should be, imposed on it, if you know what I mean. I also have difficulty "seeing" objects in my mind, such as people's faces, animals, and other objects. I think the ability to visualize things is very important in lucid dreaming.

 

[Andro]

So maybe try door number four?

And some good news for you: Not all lucid dreams are visual. You can be lucid with an idea/puzzle while physically asleep, you can consciously interact with it, question it, develop it, take it further, etc.

The Lucid Dreaming Experience is definitely not confined to the visual aspect.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

So maybe try door number four?

And some good news for you: Not all lucid dreams are visual. You can be lucid with an idea/puzzle while physically asleep, you can consciously interact with it, question it, develop it, take it further, etc.

The Lucid Dreaming Experience is definitely not confined to the visual aspect.

Then there must be another reason why some people are unable to achieve the state after practicing very significantly more than most others. Certainly, you would think that 50 years of continuous open-minded practice should achieve at least 'some' results, unless there was some innate obstacle?

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Then there must be another reason why some people are unable to achieve the state after practicing very significantly more than most others. Certainly, you would think that 50 years of continuous open-minded practice should achieve at least 'some' results, unless there was some innate obstacle?

I experienced some of my lucid dreams in conjunction with the intake of certain vibrational remedies. To somebody keen to make such experiences, but finding it difficult to get there, I would recommend experimenting with the latter.

 

[Awani]

Since this is a thread regarding "lucid dreaming" psychedelics really has nothing to do with it, yet the topic is brought up. Any addicted scumbag gets effects from using any substance constantly - even sugar, which means that it does matter what you "diet". But serious and "normal" use of psychedelics does NOT affect dreams with the only expection being cannabis. But I am not certain proper use of cannabis has this effect (proper as in eating a shitload), but the recreational usage do limit dreams.

Direct experience is where it's at, preferably WITHOUT the use of "Plant Helpers" (those CAN help, no doubt, but the realms one is taken with these "helpers" are confined within the built-in/inherent limitations of such "helpers". Plus, they all have their own personalities and agendas... So IMO it's best to practice/rely "on one's own juices". IMO.)

So with all that in mind, from my perspective you cannot have a lucid dream experience with psychedelics. You can't drive a car when you are on a bike. However you can have an OBE on psychedelics, but that is not what this thread is about as far as I can tell. Although since I have not had an OBE without psychedelics, and since Andro has not had an OBE with psychedelics I cannot be certain that the experience is the same, or of the same sort. But if it's about "leaving your body", then there is 0 % difference. And it doesn't make it better or worse how you achieved it. For now we only have the OBE term, and I would apply it to both scenarios. I am certain dying and having a real OBE is also different - even if the concept of leaving the body is the same.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

I experienced some of my lucid dreams in conjunction with the intake of certain vibrational remedies. To somebody keen to make such experiences, but finding it difficult to get there, I would recommend experimenting with the latter.

Like Awani said, that's a different experience altogether. Psychedelics can certainly provide some powerfully clear images, but I'm more interested in the natural process.

I have had an OBE without psychedelics or other stimulants (only one OBE, without any doubt), but have not had lucid dreaming experiences, so I can't compare the two to see if they have some sort of connection.

In order to 'subjectify' my experince, what I was aware of, was having some sort of 'etheric' body, while at the same time, clearly seeing my physical body below me. My vision was also unconstrained, so that I could see in all directions. My point of reference was localized in that etheric body. I could not 'see' this body, but could sort of feel its presence, similar to how you can 'feel' or 'sense' the presence of your physical body.

Andro and Awani, how would you 'subjectify' your lucid dreaming experiences? In other words, how would you describe the experience in your own words - what you personally felt, thought, etc.? Did you have a feeling of being in a body? What was your point of reference?

 

[Awani]

...but I'm more interested in the natural process.

What is natural process and what is not? The body is constantly infected with different substances that have massive effects on the psyche and the perception of reality. Even internally horomes and testosterone makes life an up and down ride. Some deal with these issues so much they get diagnosed bi-polar.

"The supernatural is natural, the paranormal is normal." - Rupert Sheldrake

In my opinion a lucid dream has no relation to a psychedelic experience at all. Main difference is that a lucid dream can be directed/controlled more than a psychedelic experience. If it is a lucid dream you cannot control I'm not sure I would define it as lucid. Psychedelics is more of a sort of teleportation where you are teleported in a lucid state into another world. A lucid dream is an experience of your inner world full of your own lusts, dreams and hopes whereas a proper pscyhedelic experience would care less about your wishes. Of course each psychedelic experience is different... and ONE major flaw in the arguments in this forum regarding the use of psychedelics is the lack of understanding that it is also not about the "world", the "visuals" or the "trip".

The psycehdelic experience can perform healing as if it was done by a superman version of a shrink. There is a voice that gives you insight that - in my opinion - you cannot receive on your own. Now, this doesn't mean everyone needs such instructions... but for those that do it cannot be brushed away by the concept of being able to achieve the same results using so-called "natural methods". Based on my experience that is incorrect and not possible.

I've been too lazy to have more lucid dreams than I already have had. Working to much or stress and such situations also decrease you chance to dream properly.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

What is natural process and what is not?

My interest is not really about the debate about what is 'natural' or not, but what your personal experience with lucid dreaming really was. Here we're talking about some very significant experiences, such as lucid dreaming and OBO experinces, and for the benefit of those who have not had an OBE, I contributed my sincere thoughts of what an OBE was like.

On the other hand, I'm seriously interested in what a lucid dreaming experience is actually like, having unsuccessfully tried to experience them for 5 decades.

But if you (and Andro) wish to disregard explaining them to the benefit of those who have not, that's obviously your choice. Otherwise, I see no benefit for this entire thread whatsoever.

 

[Awani]

But if you (and Andro) wish to disregard explaining them to the benefit of those who have not, that's obviously your choice.

I don't have the quantity of experience as Andro does, but for me it is just like being awake... the only difference is you can do anything you want and be anyone you want. It's a lucid dream. The problem I have is that it becomes so spectacular and amazing that I "get lost" in the experience and fall back into a non-lucid state... thereby loosing control of the dream again. I have only become lucid when already inside the dream. I have never entered the dream awake at the start. I imagine being awake "going in" changes the playing field a lot, and perhaps that is the key to resist getting lost in the experience and loose the lucidity.

There is another kind of dream that I have had more times than a pure lucid dream, and I am not sure what it's called, but basically it's a dream where I know it is a dream but I somehow still have no control. Like a semi-lucid dream. I am so interested in seeing the dream play out that I don't bother taking control of it.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

I don't have the quantity of experience as Andro does, but for me it is just like being awake... the only difference is you can do anything you want and be anyone you want. It's a lucid dream. The problem I have is that it becomes so spectacular and amazing that I "get lost" in the experience and fall back into a non-lucid state... thereby loosing control of the dream again. I have only become lucid when already inside the dream. I have never entered the dream awake at the start. I imagine being awake "going in" changes the playing field a lot, and perhaps that is the key to resist getting lost in the experience and loose the lucidity.

There is another kind of dream that I have had more times than a pure lucid dream, and I am not sure what it's called, but basically it's a dream where I know it is a dream but I somehow still have no control. Like a semi-lucid dream. I am so interested in seeing the dream play out that I don't bother taking control of it.

Thanks for the explanation, Awani! This is quite fascinating, and is different than what I imagined it to be. I'm still trying to understand how these dreams are different from a very 'vivid' dream that you remember when you wake. Are these "vivid" dreams the same as a "lucid" dream? If not, what is the key difference?

 

[Andro]

In Lucid Dreaming, the experience can be so convincingly real to the point of becoming so immersed in it that we lose lucidity.

In Waking Life, this very same immersion causes us to forget we're actually dreaming.

When I was 23 or 24, I wrote: "There's an infinity of realities and nothing is real."

After years of exploring OOB and Lucid Dreamscapes, the quality of my experiences has somewhat "mutated". The "dividing lines" have become very blurred.

An example: I can at some point wake up from sleep during the night, then consciously go OOB, then enter a Lucid Dreamscape, and then physically wake up (and go to the kitchen/bathroom/etc.), all while the Lucid Dream narratives and interactions continue as if nothing changed, except I am now awake and aware in more than one reality at the same time.

It sounds quite weird, but one gets used to it. It also doesn't happen very often. Maybe once or twice a month. And it's not "lucid sleepwalking"... or maybe that's exactly what it is

Anyway, I don't really have defined standards/criteria for "what is what" anymore... OOB, Lucid Dreams, Waking Life... It's all ONE infinite ocean of intersecting waves of multidimensional mind-fuck... Until you finally get access beyond the dream

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

In Lucid Dreaming, the experience can be so convincingly real to the point of becoming so immersed in it that we lose lucidity.

In Waking Life, this very same immersion causes us to forget we're actually dreaming.

When I was 23 or 24, I wrote: "There's an infinity of realities and nothing is real."

After years of exploring OOB and Lucid Dreamscapes, the quality of my experiences has somewhat "mutated". The "dividing lines" have become very blurred.

An example: I can at some point wake up from sleep during the night, then consciously go OOB, then enter a Lucid Dreamscape, and then physically wake up (and go to the kitchen/bathroom/etc.), all while the Lucid Dream narratives and interactions continue as if nothing changed, except I am now awake and aware in more than one reality at the same time.

It sounds quite weird, but one gets used to it. It also doesn't happen very often. Maybe once or twice a month. And it's not "lucid sleepwalking"... or maybe that's exactly what it is

Anyway, I don't really have defined standards/criteria for "what is what" anymore... OOB, Lucid Dreams, Waking Life... It's all ONE infinite ocean of intersecting waves of multidimensional mind-fuck... Until you finally get access beyond the dream

Thanks, Andro. The lucid dream does seem like it has a lot of commonalities with the OBE experience, except that in the OBE experience, I didn't seem to be in control of the environment. However, it was of such a short duration that perhaps I may have had control of the environment if it had lasted longer. As for certain types of "vivid" dreams, they do seem a lot like the lucid dreams. In some of these "vivid" dreams, I seemed to be fully awake and actually experiencing the dreams. I also obtained information from one of the dreams that is not available through other sources.

There's also another experience which doesn't involve dreaming. I'm not sure what to call it, but seems similar to the religious experiences that some ascetics had in the past. It happened once when I was focusing on a painting that had an unusual chess setup painted on a court with knights, bishops, a queen, a king, horses, etc. I was meditating on what it might mean. As I did so, my body started tingling, almost like goosebumps, it started feeling very warm and 'glowing', and I suddenly felt euphoric, intensely happy and intensely aware. I had a shelf of about a dozen books about chess setups. I 'randomly' picked one up one of the books, randomly opened the book to a certain page, and there it was!!! The EXACT setup setup that was shown in the picture. It involved a very old and rare setup when a Grandmaster lost the match due to a most obvious error. It was an example of "Chess Blindness". It was the ONLY discussion of that particular set-up in any of the dozen books I had. The chances of finding this randomly like that are astronomical, as you can imagine. This helped increase the state of meditation even more, and I went soaring into the secrets of the Universe. Everything was opened up to me, and I understood everything. The glowing and heat of the body increased immensely. This state lasted for a few hours, but the very peak, when I understood all of the secrets of the Universe, only lasted for moments. By the next day, everything about the secrets I had discovered about the Universe had been forgotten ( I assume purposefully).

I've had several other such 'experiences', but each was completely unique. Most involved precognition (twice saving someone's life), and one involved setting mineral crushing machinery on fire with the intensity of my thoughts (a long story).

 

[Awani]

My problem when trying to make the body fall asleep, yet keep the mind awake is this:

When I am tired I fall asleep. When I am not tired I cannot make any part of me fall asleep. Does this mean I need to practice meditation, or is there a hack?

 

[Andro]

My problem when trying to make the body fall asleep, yet keep the mind awake is this:

When I am tired I fall asleep. When I am not tired I cannot make any part of me fall asleep. Does this mean I need to practice meditation, or is there a hack?

One hack is to do it when you briefly wake up during the night between sleep cycles. It's usually a time when your body is still in "sleep mode", but mentally, you are briefly awake. The body is very relaxed and you are aware enough to consciously focus on keeping the mind awake while the body naturally falls asleep again.

Another hack is to do mental (but not physical) tasks before bedtime. Ideally, tasks that do not involve a phone or any kind of screen. Reading a book (before bed, but not IN bed) can be very good for this.

Another hack is to get yourself sexually aroused while falling asleep. Just concentrate on the sexual area and keep your mind focused on that while the body falls asleep. I can't really explain the mechanism, but it can have a good success rate.

Another hack is to do it in the afternoon. Even if you're not really tired, lie down in bed and let some sun on your face through the window. It's a state in which your body may naturally want to nap but mentally you are not tired enough to do so. It's all about mind awake/body asleep.

None of those will work well for beginners if a lot of artificial EMF is present (such as computer and phone screens, even artificial light). All those need to be removed if you want any chance to succeed in the first stages.

Some people have a natural gift of phasing in and out of body. I had it for a few months at a relatively young age, and then lost it, mainly because the sleep paralysis scared me shitless. When this happened I had no Internet, I had never heard of Robert Monroe and I had zero information about this phenomenon. I even went to doctors and to a psychiatrist about it.

Then I "lost the gift", but a few years later I found someone in a new age bookstore who gave me some books that touched on this topic. Not a lot, but enough to know that something special had been happening and that the doctors were clueless about it. So I started to practice obsessively, for many months, until I managed to make my first fully conscious "round trip" - maintaining full awareness from exit to re-entry. I used binaural beats (Deep Theta) , and those seemed to help at the time. I didn't even have headphones, just a some cassette tapes played through speakers at low level... The fear barrier also took a great deal of sheer willpower to overcome. But it only got easier from then on.