• The migration to this new platform is complete, but there are a lot of details to sort out. If you find something that needs to be fixed make a post in this thread. Thank you for your patience!

Liberation

Awani

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
9,922
They usually don't.

Which is why I have a major problem with the Buddha. He abandoned his children for his own ego, even if he later tried to liberate mankind.

I think one of the major reasons to even spend time in this ”game” / ”dream” is to - like the Creator - create… art, dreams and life. Micro/Macrocosm.

Only parents can understand. I thought I understood this, but until I became a father I didn’t.

But you are correct. I cannot imagine leaving them behind, nor would I want to. I do not see this as an addiction or something bad.

Without unconditional love the universe serve no purpose and might as well seize to exist (not liberation)… more like failure.
 

Lakshmana

Invenies
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 24, 2022
Messages
633
Beautiful words :)
 

Christophorus

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
401
Which is why I have a major problem with the Buddha. He abandoned his children for his own ego, even if he later tried to liberate mankind.

I think one of the major reasons to even spend time in this ”game” / ”dream” is to - like the Creator - create… art, dreams and life. Micro/Macrocosm.

Only parents can understand. I thought I understood this, but until I became a father I didn’t.

But you are correct. I cannot imagine leaving them behind, nor would I want to. I do not see this as an addiction or something bad.

Without unconditional love the universe serve no purpose and might as well seize to exist (not liberation)… more like failure.

Only parents can understand. I agree 100%. And that is the apparent paradox, to be or not to be...

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. To die—to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep, perchance to dream—ay, there's the rub:
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause—there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th'oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of dispriz'd love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th'unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovere'd country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience doth make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action.

I would say that the Buddha, like any other, had also to respond to the question. That's part of being incarnated. And yes... The sacrifices that he made, to achieve that kind of liberation would have to be very hard. It seems to be a trend, in the major books.

In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna is confronted with something similar in the Kurukshetra war. Is not a question of wanting or not wanting, in fact, he tries to avoid it because on the opposite side were many of his family, teachers, and friends! But alas, he has to, because that is his duty as Krishna explains it patiently.

If Arjuna was another person, with other duties, he would be liberated from that decision. But he has no luck and has to face and embrace his destiny in order to fulfill his mission and the mission of all the others involved. It is not a personal thing, but a global one. That's another kind of liberation. A kind of forced global impulse in my view, to accelerate certain aspects of humanity. Christ gives himself to death to achieve a similar purpose to the global and not only to the particular. I believe the path to the Universal Stone, has some aspects linked to this too, and that's why it is so important. Each time an Adept is created, there's a kind of resonance that affects all incarnated beings, and not only the alchemist. A kind of Sympathetic Effect.

Regarding children, I believe that we can prepare their way so that they can free themselves too. Is not easy (I speak for myself) to do it, because is not only a matter of education and love but also the ability to train them from a young age on how to think by themselves, how to experience things without boundaries etc, which is a struggle, considering that they live (as a child) in a world were most of their friends, teachers, etc are sheep.

But Awani... In the ultimate view and faced with the possibility, probably most parents would sacrifice their liberation in order to have their children liberated. Love is everything!
 

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,757
Most of us experience(d) producing offspring in other lifetimes. At some point, we realize there's more to life and we move beyond that. I have clear recollections of being both a mother and a father on multiple occasions. In one of those lifetimes (as a mother) it was my own insane psychopathic son who caused me the most suffering, which eventually led to my death. In another lifetime (as a father), I lost a much beloved son, who was cowardly assassinated. Eventually, we move beyond that. We realize that popping out offspring has nothing to do with "unconditional" love. If being our own offspring is not the ultimate "condition", I don't know what is. Unless we love everyone EQUALLY as we love our offspring (not just mentally/theoretically, but in PRACTICE), then it's just copium-snorting.

Alas, this is all mind-fuck, because "unconditional" love does not exist in entropy-ruled reality constructs. The most driving emotion in finite reality constructs is Longing. It's the "Alpha" emotion or the "Prime" emotion. Conversely, Love (in an unconditional state) is only possible at the end of ALL separation, when all reality finally implodes on itself. Unconditioned Love is the "Omega" emotion, and it only emerges at the "end of time". But while we still ex-ist "in time", there is only Longing.

When we ultimately realize and internalize that nothing inherently means anything, we are free.
 

elixirmixer

Thoth
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
2,870
Some children are just cunts. Despite being given proper guidance and every opportunity. 🤷‍♂️

And I feel like the parents that love a child like that are probably narcissistic themselves.

I have 5 children. I don't love them because they are my children I love them because they are amazing and they give ME unconditional love.

The unconditional love in my home is no virtue of my own. It belongs to them. They radiate it and really for 99% of relationships in my life I am but a mirror. I treat people the way they treat me. My children give me unconditional love and so I give it back to them in return.

Some of my children are not perfect, and some of my children make perfection look like mud. One of my children has taught me more about alchemy then I've ever learnt from all the text and forums one could read.

It's a paradox. I think the unconditional love thing is copium. I wouldn't flatter yourself with such lofty attributes as much as just accept that it feels nice to have a mini version of yourself love you unconditionally. Which is a kind of biological narcissism more than a virtue probably. I don't see any reason to believe that in most other situations we are pathetic excuses for Angels and then all of a sudden when it comes to our children we become the apex of love and light 🤭

I pity people who have ugly, misbehaved, less than ordinary children. That would be a horrible curse, but one I'm sure is deserved.

"A man shall be known by his fruits"
 

Awani

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
9,922
It comes down to how we define unconditional love. Maybe the term has baggage? But as I see/use the word, it's the highest form of "love". Basically - symbolically - it's the same "love" as they claim Jesus had, and why he died for "our sins" on the cross. He even loved those that tortured him... according to tradition.

I have a moment when one of my daughters were only like a year old and she was sitting on my stomach. I distinctly recall when she "saw" me for the first time. That moment imprinted on my spirit/soul, and cannot be removed and there is nothing I will do for her. I'd kill and eat anyone... and I do mean anyone; loyalty and life-long friendships or family means nothing if - hypotethically - it would protect my daughters.

It is not I who gave myself "unconditional love" to myself or to them, they have it for me... and in that, my own grew because receiving such a love is a game changer. And like has been mentioned in terms of liberation, I would do anything I can to liberate them before I would even liberate myself (unless the latter achieve the former).

 

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,757
I'd kill and eat anyone... and I do mean anyone; loyalty and life-long friendships or family means nothing if - hypothetically - it would protect my daughters.
Hypothetically, would you kill and eat one daughter to save/protect the other one?

Or would special conditions apply in such a (hypothetical) scenario?
 

Awani

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
9,922
Already thought about that at great length. To pick one: impossible
 

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,757
To clarify, this is just a friendly hypothetical thought experiment. I don't wish such scenarios on ANYONE.
 

elixirmixer

Thoth
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
2,870
So we could be onto something then. T'would seem, at least from my own and awani's experience, that unconditional love is something taught to us by the children themselves. Pretty cool really.

I would eat the older ones to save the younger ones.

The older ones should have known better than to get in the way of protecting the younger ones.

Unless of course it was just a starvation thing. I don't think I would ever kill one just to feed another. If you're at that point already I think that some family hymns and a group suicide might be in order.

I can't picture many things more liberating then the whole family agreeing to be rid of this earth simultaneously. Not that it would ever come to that. Living in the Nanny state west we don't seem to even have permission to die. They would sooner pay for the food and insist to keep exploiting us as long as they possibly can.


Today I gave a light smack to my son. He was annoying his sister and refused to stop. He went and cried for a minute and then took up a meditation pose for about 10 minutes.

I told him I was proud of him and asked him what he was doing, what he was thinking about. He told me he was looking for the spirit world. He's 6 years old. I'm very proud of my children. They are becoming the little hermetic philosophers I always dreamed that they would.
 

Kibric

Occultum
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jul 24, 2017
Messages
921
Saturn eating his children doesnt have to be an allegory, as some witches have found out.

Liberating.
 

Pilgrim

Invenies
Hermetic Pilgrim
Mysterious Stranger
Joined
Apr 26, 2023
Messages
568
Interesting thread

I perceive some other universal possibilities thus:

1. I or all of us are "God". We know everything, can do anything and after billions of years I or we ar bored senseless of it all. Thus I or we collectively created an epic computer game in which we erase our memory, remove our god powers and try to mak snsee of the artificial world we created and find our way out of it, or maybe stay inside it because it's more interesting than being all-powerful all-knowing.


2. Life forms much more advanced than us know that they need certain types of spirit or energy or souls to exist. This is their "gold". They have therefore found a planet, seeded human life on it to grow and mature to a certain point where upon the human dies and the spirit is released and harvested by these unseen beings. The Earth then is a prison planet, a human farm where we are grown for their use. We are their food (or rather our spirit or soul is). Just as a cow in a field is clueless as to why it is there and just exists in the field eating grass oblivious to the fact that it exists to be food for humans, so too are we just cattle being farmed by advanced beings who want our spirits or souls.


Of these 2 options I personally think option 2 is more likely. We are trapped here. Space travel seems very limited. Escape seems impossible. We are somehow rooted to this Earth, more than simply by gravity. I strongly suspect that when our bodies perish our spirit or soul still can not escape. I suspect the only way out of this dire situation is if an outside force, another advanced being, sees what is happening here and fights the prison warders and frees us.

I confess to being somewhat nihilistic.

I believe our DNA is doctored to neuter us, prevent us living 100s of years. We are being farmed, and like many foods, a young one tastes better (lamb vs mutton, baby veg vs older veg and so on).

I can't back any of this up. I simply sense it. Everything is so futile and pointless and rigged against us.