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Is Spiritual Alchemy A Valid Path?

ArcherSage

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My stance on alchemy has changed somewhat since reading what everyone says here in this forum. I am of the belief that alchemy could have been a spiritual endeavor from the beginning, but I also believe that the true alchemist can transmute anything..from the mental, to the spiritual, to the physical properties in his/her life. I believe there is an inner great work, and an outer great work.
 

Awani

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In my view the outer can't do much. The inner can do it all. The inner creates the outer. Sure the outer can empower (or weaken) the inner, but at its core the inner is the All.

:cool:
 

Schmuldvich

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In my view the outer can't do much.

Do you not believe what the Ancients say about the Philosopher's Stone?


The inner can do it all.

How can "the inner" create some powder that transmutes physical metal to gold?

How can "the inner" make a tangible medicine that can be dosed and ingested accordingly?
 

Awani

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Do you not believe what the Ancients say about the Philosopher's Stone?

They say what?

How can "the inner" create some powder that transmutes physical metal to gold?

It can't, and to be frank that aspect has no interest for me whatsoever. To me that is no better than any other "get rich quick" scheme. They are all scams.

How can "the inner" make a tangible medicine that can be dosed and ingested accordingly?

Who said a medicine needs to be dosed and ingested? ;)

:cool:
 

Schmuldvich

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They say what?

For Hermes said of this Science: Alchemy is a Corporal Science simply composed of one and by one, naturally conjoining things more precious, by knowledge and effect, and converting them by a natural commixtion into a better kind.

A certain other said: Alchemy is a Science, teaching how to transform any kind of metal into another: and that by a proper medicine, as it appeared by many Philosophers' Books.

Alchemy therefore is a science teaching how to make and compound a certain medicine, which is called Elixir, the which when it is cast upon metals or imperfect bodies, does fully perfect them in the very projection.


"The Mirror Of Alchemy", by Roger Bacon 1250



How can "the inner" create some powder that transmutes physical metal to gold? It can't, and to be frank that aspect has no interest for me whatsoever. To me that is no better than any other "get rich quick" scheme. They are all scams.

So, dev, you do not believe that there is a physical substance out there (generally referred to as the "Philosopher's Stone") that can transmute physical metal to gold?



How can "the inner" make a tangible medicine that can be dosed and ingested accordingly? Who said a medicine needs to be dosed and ingested? ;)

I phrased it like that because, knowing you, you would flip to the other side of the coin and say that we are inwardly creating this "medicine", which is why I specified an actual physically tangible medicine that one can touch, dose out, and ingest or give to a patient. You and I are both in agreement that we can already create a medicine inwardly that is beneficial to our health and state-of-being on this plane.
 

Awani

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I don't deem Roger Bacon to be worth his weight in the gold he never made... not ancient either. Frankly I've got a hard time "looking up" to someone called Roger. ;)

So, dev, you do not believe that there is a physical substance out there (generally referred to as the "Philosopher's Stone") that can transmute physical metal to gold?

Not really. And even if it did exist it would eventually devalue gold. It's pointless.

...an actual physically tangible medicine that one can touch, dose out, and ingest or give to a patient.

Yes I agree there is such "outward" medicine, but it's not "the Stone".

:cool:
 

Schmuldvich

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Frankly I've got a hard time "looking up" to someone called Roger.

Well with this superficial attitude you certainly will not get very far (unless you are joking; hard to tell over the internet). What authors, books, or treatises regarding Alchemy do you hold in high regard, dev?



So, dev, you do not believe that there is a physical substance out there (generally referred to as the "Philosopher's Stone") that can transmute physical metal to gold? Not really. And even if it did exist it would eventually devalue gold. It's pointless.

So you are not aware of what you believe? "Not really"

The "value" of gold is completely arbitrary. It is not the gold that is valuable, but rather what it gets you that is valuable. A bottle of water to some guy dying of thirst in the desert is worth $847,246,925,721+ to that guy, whereas if you were to offer him a 1 oz hunk of gold he would offer you no more than a penny for this worthless (to him) item. The value of gold is irrelevant.



Yes I agree there is such "outward" medicine, but it's not "the Stone".

What do you believe this outward medicine that is not the Stone is?
 

Awani

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It depends on the medical issue.

:cool:
 

ArcherSage

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It's not what the stone is, its what it represents. Yes spiritual alchemy is a valid path, for it is how you reach a higher state of consciousness. I would say that mental and spiritual alchemy would enable one to find the physical stone from their heightened sense of creativity and energy. Many alchemists who tried to find the physical stone were also into the mental aspect, such as Issac Newton. It is said he may have never had sex his entire life, and by retaining this energy allowed him to have more brain power to discover things. When you retain sexual energy you will have so much creative energy that its hard to go to sleep sometimes, you will stay up and write books and music etc..
 

Schmuldvich

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It depends on the medical issue.

Specifically the issue you were referring to 23 hours ago, post #209 in this thread, post #45300 of all time. You know what I am asking.

What do you believe this physically tangible outward medicine that one can touch, dose out, and ingest but is not the Stone is, dev?
 
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Awani

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What do you believe this physically tangible outward medicine that one can touch, dose out, and ingest but is not the Stone is, dev?

Third and last time I say it: it depends on what needs to be cured.

:cool:
 

ArcherSage

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As I have stated before, I believe there is a physical stone that can be created, but it wont do you any good. All the greatest alchemists and philosophers have written that real gold is not the goal of alchemy, the material thinker has taken everything written as literal. Then later, alchemist were writing about the laboratory processes to create this gold, and all knowledge of the original alchemy was lost, and replaced by greed. This is the case with all great spiritual teachings, just look at the church and what it did to the teachings of Christ. It seems odd that the elimination of the ego is a requirement of alchemy as written by almost all the alchemical texts, yet they want to create gold for themselves.
 

JDP

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As I have stated before, I believe there is a physical stone that can be created, but it wont do you any good. All the greatest alchemists and philosophers have written that real gold is not the goal of alchemy, the material thinker has taken everything written as literal. Then later, alchemist were writing about the laboratory processes to create this gold, and all knowledge of the original alchemy was lost, and replaced by greed. This is the case with all great spiritual teachings, just look at the church and what it did to the teachings of Christ. It seems odd that the elimination of the ego is a requirement of alchemy as written by almost all the alchemical texts, yet they want to create gold for themselves.

Huh? Where exactly did they write that? What you are claiming is modern "spiritualist" or Jungian misinterpretations of alchemy.
 

ArcherSage

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Alchemy is spiritual

I will quote Hermes the "father" of alchemy, from various books from the divine pymander.




"That which is immortal, partakes not of that which is mortal.

That which is mortal cometh not into a Body immortal; but that which is immortal cometh into that which is mortal.

Operation or Workings are not carried upwards, but descend downwards.

Things upon Earth, do nothing advantage those in Heaven; but all things in Heaven do profit and advantage all things upon Earth.

Heaven is capable, and a fit receptacle of everlasting Bodies; the Earth of corruptible Bodies.

The Earth is brutish; the Heaven is reasonable or rational.

Fortune is the carriage or effect of that which is without order; the Idol of operation, a lying Fantasie or opinion.

What is God? The immutable or unalterable good.

What is man? An unchangeable evil.

If thou perfectly remember these Heads, thou canst not forget those things which in more words I have largely expounded unto thee; for these are the contents or Abridgment of them.

Avoid all conversation with the multitude or common people; for I would not have thee subject to Envy, much less to be ridiculous unto the many.

For the like always takes to itself that which is like, but the unlike never agrees with the unlike. Such discourses as these have very few Auditors, and peradventure very few will have, but they have something peculiar unto themselves.

They do rather sharpen and whet evil men to their maliciousness; therefore, it behoveth to avoid the multitude, and take heed of them as not understanding the virtue and power of the things that are said.

How does thou mean, O Father?

This O Son: the whole nature and Composition of those living things called Men, is very prone to Maliciousness, and is very familiar, and as it were nourished with it, and therefore is delighted with it; now this wight, if it shall come to learn or know that the world was once made, and all things are done according to Providence or Necessity, Destiny or Fate, bearing rule over all, will he not be much worse than himself, despising the whole, because it was made? And if he may lay the cause of Evil upon Fate or Destiny, he will never abstain from any evil work.

Wherefore we must look warily to such kind of people, that being in ignorance they may be less evil for fear of that which is hidden and kept secret."




"Why, O Men of the Offspring of Earth, why have you delivered yourselves over unto Death, having power to partake of Immortality? Repent and change your minds, you that have together walked in Error, and have been darkened in ignorance."




"But the Soul entering into the body of a Man, if it continue evil, shall neither taste of immortality, nor is partaker of the Good."

"The disposition of these clothings or Covers is done in an Earthly Body; for it is impossible that the Mind should establish or rest itself, naked, and of itself in an Earthly Body; neither is the Earthly Body able to bear such immortality: and therefore, that it might suffer so great virtue, the Mind compacted, as it were, and took to itself the passable Body of the Soul, as a covering or clothing. And the Soul being also in some sort Divine, useth the Spirit as her Minister or Servant; and the Spirit governeth the living things.

When therefore the Mind is separated, and departeth from the Earthly Body, presently it puts on its Fiery Coat, which it could not do, having to dwell in an Earthly Body.

For the Earth cannot suffer fire, for it is all burned of a small spark; therefore is the water poured round about the Earth, as a wall or defence, to withstand the flame of fire.

But the Mind being the most sharp or swift of all the Divine Cogitations, and more swift than all the Elements, hath the fire for its Body."

"Yet is it so as I say, O Son, He that looketh only upon that which is carried upward as Fire, that which is carried downward as Earth, that which is moist as Water, and that which bloweth, or is subject to blast, as Air; how can he sensibly understand that which is neither hard nor moist, nor tangible, nor perspicuous, seeing it is only understood in power and operation? But I beseech and pray to the Mind, which alone can understand the Generation which is in God.

Tat. Then am I, O Father, utterly unable to do it.

God forbid, Son, rather draw or pull him unto thee (or study to know him) and he will come, be but willing and it shall be done; quite (or make idle) the senses of the Body, purging thyself from the unreasonable brutish torments of matter.

Tat. Have I any (revengers or) tormentors in myself, Father?

Herm. Yea, and those not a few, but many, and fearful ones.

Tat. I do not know them, Father.

One Torment, Son, is Ignorance: a second, Sorrow; a third, Intemperance; a fourth, Concupiscence; a fifth, Injustice; a sixth, Covetousness; a seventh, Deceit; an eighth, Envy; a ninth, Fraud or Guile; a tenth, Wrath; an eleventh, Rashness; a twelfth, Maliciousness.

They are in number twelve, and under these many more; some which through the prison of the Body do force the inwardly placed man to suffer sensibly.

And they do not suddenly or easily depart from him that hath obtained mercy of God; and herein consists both the manner and the reason of Regeneration."

"Tell me, O Father, This body that consists of Powers, shall it ever admit of Dissolution?

Good words, Son, and speak not things impossible; for so thou shalt sin, and the eye of thy mind grow wicked.

The sensible body of Nature is far from the Essential Generation, for that is subject to dissolution, but this is not; and that is mortal, but this immortal.
Dost thou not know that thou art born a God, and the Son of the One, as I am?"




" But the Operation of God, is Mind and Soul, Of Eternity, Permanence, or Long-lasting, and Immortality, Of the World, Restitution, and Decay, or Destruction."



"As a good Physician grieveth the Body, prepossessed of a disease, by burning or lancing it for health's sake; After the same manner also the Mind grieveth the Soul, by drawing it out of Pleasure, from whence every disease of the Soul proceedeth."




"For the things that are, being two Bodies, and things incorporeal, wherein is the Mortal and the Divine, the Election or Choice of either is left to him that will choose: For no man can choose both"







There are many more as well, it seems Hermes himself was into "new age alchemy" as you guys call it. Yes physical alchemy may be a thing, however to state that alchemy originated in a purely material way is ignorant. It evolved into such a thing as Hermes predicted it would. I found the part about the fiery coat interesting, as this is the baptism by fire that the spirit must go through for its transformation, the same as the parable of the phoenix. Yeshua (christ) having been raised in Egypt surely was knowledgeable about hermetics.
 
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JDP

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That's all fine and dandy but the "Pymander" is NOT an alchemical text.
 

ArcherSage

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Hermes has spoken. Its a shame that you don't recognize true alchemical texts when you see it.

This was a warning to the materialists who misinterpret his writings. Immortality on earth from producing the stone was the goal of physical alchemy, yet Hermes tells us this "Why, O Men of the Offspring of Earth, why have you delivered yourselves over unto Death, having power to partake of Immortality? Repent and change your minds, you that have together walked in Error, and have been darkened in ignorance"

Sadly many of you still take all the writings literally, and study the material alchemists work which will lead you nowhere. There are many clues to the great work hidden through many texts that you may not consider an "alchemy text", nonetheless they are there for you to find. Hopefully you don't rely on a book to be called "alchemy 101 or alchemy etc" to consider it alchemy. Not everything is black and white.
 
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JDP

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Methinks that it is you who can't recognize actual alchemical texts. No scholar that I know of considers the Pymander to be an alchemical text.
 

Kiorionis

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Out of curiosity, how would you define an "alchemical text" JDP?
 
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ArcherSage

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The true arcane arts and esoteric studies are always veiled in symbolism..even physical materials such as mercury and salt are not literal, at least not in its meaning. It was used literally to create the physical stone, however it is the qualities that these things have in relation to the spirit or mind.
 

Andro

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Logistical Post

The thread 'Alchemy is Spiritual' has been merged with this one, as they both largely deal with the same topic.

Promoting/spreading the same topic over many threads can have a 'flooding' effect, so, whenever possible, please continue a topic on a thread where it is already discussed, instead of starting a new thread every time. It also makes searching the forums much easier.

Also, for reference: Another thread that deals heavily with somewhat similar issues is Aspects of Alchemy.

Thanks!
 

Aaron

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Claiming alchemys purpose was to actually transmute lead into gold, is the same as saying they were literally trying to make humuncoli (human-like beings).
 

JDP

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Out of curiosity, how would you define an "alchemical text" JDP?

Texts that have to do with the making of the Philosophers' Stone. They are not difficult at all to differentiate from texts on other topics, really. Would you confuse, for example, Thomas Norton's "Ordinal of Alchemy" (even if you ignore the very obvious title) with any other type of literature? I don't think so. You easily know alchemical texts when you read them.
 
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JDP

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Claiming alchemys purpose was to actually transmute lead into gold, is the same as saying they were literally trying to make humuncoli (human-like beings).

Hardly valid comparison. Most alchemists were either ignorant about or quite unconcerned with the claims about the "homunculus" (which has its origin in ancient ideas about "spontaneous generation" which predate alchemical literature itself), while the bulk of alchemical literature is heavily concerned with the Philosophers' Stone and transmutation. Plus some writers do indeed claim to have made "homunculi".
 
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