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Is Spiritual Alchemy A Valid Path?

Loki Morningstar

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Surprise suprise, JDP you are ignoring us and repeating yourself again. You are beginning to sound like a broken record. Yawn!

Do you know everything there is to know about alchemy and life?

I am always willing to admit that I know very little, that there is so much more to learn. I am willing to admit I might be wrong about anything that I say. It seems to me that you need inner alchemy more than you know.

You may have great skills and knowledge in practical alchemy (Which you seem to think is chemistry, so it seems if anyone is hijacking alchemy, it is you, if this is what you are looking for why not join a chemistry forum?). And I respect you for your knowledge of this area.

But what use is having the stone if you struggle to make, or have, good relations with people, if you have no quality of life?

Do you care about making friends on Alchemy Forums?

I would really like to be able to get on with you JDP. I would really like us to be able to share knowledge with each other. Although, that would take mutual respect, I am not interested in a one sided conversation.
 
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Axismundi000

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When you manage to find a common ground with someone, then you can learn from him. Of course, it takes two to tango.

Other than that... If you are having a bad day, that's your fucking problem, not mine... I'm not your punching bag... so whenever you feel in the mood to insult me: eat your own shit yourself, 'cause I certainly do not need it. Thank you.

Judging by your abusive comments I am not the one having a bad day. Clearly you are not used to being called out on new age fascism. I suppose I should complain to moderators about you language but frankly you are not worth the effort.
 
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Andro

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Mod Post

Address the topic, not the person.


All personal attacks, direct or implied, stop NOW.

Do not reply to this post, as it is not up for debate.
_______________________

Edit: Also see this thread: Argue The Point, Not The Person.
 

zoas23

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Judging by your abusive comments I am not the one having a bad day. Clearly you are not used to being called out on new age fascism. I suppose I should complain to moderators about you language but frankly you are not worth the effort.

Yes, I am not used to being called "fascist" or "new ager", for I am far from being either of those things.
If you think that I am not worth the effort, that's your problem, not my problem.
So I am expecting an apology from you.

As for getting along with other persons who have a radically different point of view than the one you have: that's maybe the #1 practice of inner alchemy...

I do not agree with many views that JDP has... and yet we helped each other a few times with different things, without caring if our ideology is very different. I simply do not need him to agree with me.
JDP has a privileged knowledge of classical alchemical literature... So maybe you can take from him what is useful for you and disregard the ideas which are not useful for you.

I do not give a damn on winning an internet debate, but undeserved insults are off limits to me.

If you want to hear my unworthy opinion on inner alchemy, it's as simple as: "That which is below is like that which is above & that which is above is like that which is below to do the miracles of one only thing".

If you are unable to be kind, respectful, helpful and mutable... then don't waste your time with alchemy.

Wise words from the departing:
By working the soil
We cultivate the sky
And enter the vegetable kingdom
Of our own heaven.
Wear sensible shoes
And always say "thank you"
By working the soil
By working the soil
We cultivate good manners.
It is to say "please", and "thank you"
Especially for the things
We never had
 

Axismundi000

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I note zoas23 that you disagree with the new age fascism idea.

You then suggest I seek to win a debate and finally identify behaviours and atitudes without which you feel it is unlikely that I will be succesfull in my pursuit of Alchemy. You clearly do not think any of this telling me what I am wanting to achieve. How I should think and act, what my attitudes need to be is in any way new age spiritual fascism. After a little thought I realise that you genuinely do not consider any of this innapropriate hence your annoyance, I have encountered this several times before.

I wish you every success on your journey zoas23 and I understand the opinions you express are genuinely felt.

Just as i perceive JDP to be an obdurate empiricist who it is pointless to debate with, I now understand that you also are firmly entrenched in your paradigm and I shall take all you say with a large pinch of salt from now on.

Thank you both.
 
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Loki Morningstar

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I wish everyone would just get on and accept that people have varying views about things. :(
 

zoas23

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I note zoas23 that you disagree with the new age fascism idea.

You then suggest I seek to win a debate and finally identify behaviours and atitudes without which you feel it is unlikely that I will be succesfull in my pursuit of Alchemy. You clearly do not think any of this telling me what I am wanting to achieve. How I should think and act, what my attitudes need to be is in any way new age spiritual fascism. After a little thought I realise that you genuinely do not consider any of this innapropriate hence your annoyance, I have encountered this several times before.

I wish you every success on your journey zoas23 and I understand the opinions you express are genuinely felt.

Just as i perceive JDP to be an obdurate empiricist who it is pointless to debate with, I now understand that you also are firmly entrenched in your paradigm and I shall take all you say with a large pinch of salt from now on.

Thank you both.

Yes, I do NOT consider inappropriate to ask you not to insult me.
Am I firmly entrenched in MY paradigm? Could you please describe which one is my paradigm or which ones are its main ideas and practices?

You don't fucking know me... cut the crap.
 

Axismundi000

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Yes, I do NOT consider inappropriate to ask you not to insult me.
Am I firmly entrenched in MY paradigm? Could you please describe which one is my paradigm or which ones are its main ideas and practices?

You don't fucking know me... cut the crap.

zoas23 I will not accept further abusive language from you. My letting it go the first time may have been a mistake, it seems to have encouraged you in the idea that it is OK to be abusive and that infantile temper tantrums are something I will tolerate, I will not tolerate foul mouthed oafish language and attitudes.

zoas23 i do not expect an apology from you for this serial abuse because I do not think you have the maturity to genuinely give one.

I simply request that you never use abusive and obscene language towards me ever again on this forum.
 
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JDP

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Surprise suprise, JDP you are ignoring us and repeating yourself again. You are beginning to sound like a broken record. Yawn!

Do you know everything there is to know about alchemy and life?

I am always willing to admit that I know very little, that there is so much more to learn. I am willing to admit I might be wrong about anything that I say. It seems to me that you need inner alchemy more than you know.

You may have great skills and knowledge in practical alchemy (Which you seem to think is chemistry, so it seems if anyone is hijacking alchemy, it is you, if this is what you are looking for why not join a chemistry forum?). And I respect you for your knowledge of this area.

But what use is having the stone if you struggle to make, or have, good relations with people, if you have no quality of life?

Do you care about making friends on Alchemy Forums?

I would really like to be able to get on with you JDP. I would really like us to be able to share knowledge with each other. Although, that would take mutual respect, I am not interested in a one sided conversation.

Talking about "broken records" and ignoring what one writes: I never said that alchemy is "chemistry", in fact, quite the contrary, I have always pointed out that the alchemists distinguished their operations and methods from those of "vulgar chymistry". Just because both alchemy and chemistry operate upon substances does NOT mean they are the same thing. In fact, I go even further and say that chemistry is not even the same with its real immediate predecessor: chymistry (unlike chemists, the chymists of the 17th-18th century did not deny transmutation and in fact a good number of them achieved it by their own methods, different from those of the alchemists.) But the difference between the two (or three) disciplines has nothing to do with any unproven "supernatural" intervention or special Jedi-like mental forces. Transmutation does not need "miracles" to work. It is perfectly natural and thus anyone can achieve it, provided he is a good researcher and figures out the correct substances and operations. Nature does not give a damn about what one thinks or believes, it just "is", and it will continue to do its thing independent of anyone's arbitrary theories and speculations.

I need "inner alchemy"? Really? Why would anyone need something for which there is no proof whatsoever it actually exists? I have an idea, Loki: I have decided that you need a "ghost generator". Yes, that is the solution to all your problems, my friend. Now go and find one and start generating ghosts. Then let me know how this purely imaginary thing that I have just made up a couple of minutes ago and for which there also is no proof whatsoever that it actually exists anywhere has improved your life.
 

zoas23

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zoas23 I will not accept further abusive language from you. My letting it go the first time may have been a mistake, it seems to have encouraged you in the idea that it is OK to be abusive and that infantile temper tantrums are something I will tolerate, I will not tolerate foul mouthed oafish language and attitudes.

zoas23 i do not expect an apology from you for this serial abuse because I do not think you have the maturity to genuinely give one.

I simply request that you never use abusive and obscene language towards me ever again on this forum.

Sir Center of the World.... An apology from me????

I told you that after more than 15 pages of a discussion that was going nowhere, you should try a different approach and find the common ground where JDP and you (and others) can get along and have a productive conversation/exchange... I do not agree with many points of view that JDP has, but I respect him and I've had a few very productive exchanges with him. We do not need to agree.

Abusive language is calling me a "new age fascist" for suggesting you to do such thing... I should have replied "FUCK YOU" to that idiotic post of yours, I didn't, maybe I should have done it... and then you kept on insulting me.

Other than that, I work quite often in the context of a Lodge dedicated exclusively to inner alchemy (no lab). Our #1 rule is explained by the metaphor of feeding the Dove (a symbol of the Logos / Word). The Dove flies from person to person and everyone has to "feed it"... If you insult another person, you are doing the opposite, which is taking away the seeds that the Dove received. The Lodge has some 30 men and women of both sexes with very different ideas... and yet we never had a discussion.

I enjoy a lot exchanging ideas with persons of different ideologies... as long as there's kindness, respect, an understanding that we all have different ideas and trust.

I do not deserve your insults... and if you do not see that you are insulting me, then you are completely out of your mind, so I somehow hope that you actually understand that you are doing it.

I see Alchemy as an ART... thus I understand that some persons can be very focused on the technique, others can be focused on its spiritual value, others can be focused on its theory, others can be focused on its literature... the possibilities are endless. It is possible to appreciate Basquiat and Mantegna... and it's somehow good that both of them existed.

A person who seeks to destroy those who do not think like him... will end up having a very limited point of view.

“And remember, you shall suffer all things and again suffer: until you have sufficient sufferance to accept all things.”
Austin Osman Spare
 

Axismundi000

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Once again you use obscene language towards me zoas23. This really is too much.
 

zoas23

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Once again you use obscene language towards me zoas23. This really is too much.

I actually sent you a private message saying literally:

I do not get which one is your problem with me, but STOP IT.

I seriously dislike confrontations.

So... truce and let's make a "tabula rasa" and begin again, this is fucking stupid and makes no sense.

... but you decided to ignore it. So I'll say it here: STOP IT. Let's begin again in a different and civilized way... I do not enjoy this type of exchanges. They do not make any sense.
 

Coleridgean

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I'd actually prefer the term 'philosophical alchemy' to 'spiritual alchemy' since the spirit represents only one of three aspects of the ternary - those being salt or sal (Earth / body), mercury (Water&Air / spirit), and sulfur (Air&Fire / soul). The point I would make is that spiritual or philosophical alchemy has very strong validity in literature and is the root of modern philosophy, since pioneers like Jacob Boehme came along before and inspired Kant, Schelling, and the rest of the Germans
 

Schmuldvich

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I'd actually prefer the term 'philosophical alchemy' to 'spiritual alchemy' since the spirit represents only one of three aspects of the ternary - those being salt or sal (Earth / body), mercury (Water&Air / spirit), and sulfur (Air&Fire / soul).

The point I would make is that spiritual or philosophical alchemy has very strong validity in literature and is the root of modern philosophy, since pioneers like Jacob Boehme came along before and inspired Kant, Schelling, and the rest of the Germans

Alchemy is a tangible, physical science whose principles, when understood, can be applied to daily life and our understanding of the Universe.

Because these principles can be applied to our daily lives (as well as because people falsely suppose our Art is not true), in time Alchemy has been bastardized into "spiritual alchemy". Call it what you want; "inner alchemy", "philosophical alchemy", etc. While useful and applicable in many ways...this is not real Alchemy.


The OP of this thread, Dwellings, asked if by merely meditating we can end up with insane amounts of gold...

I want to ask: How can by merely meditating chakra kundalini Inner Alchemy or whatever mumbo jumbo you want to call it can you end up with insane amounts of Gold?

Most texts written deal with creating the Philosopher's Stone, though never directly giving a recipe and always with veiled speech. Many Alchemists liked to skirt around the issue and write in allegory. Others liked to veil what they wrote in a kind of spiritual blanket, making it applicable to life.

This is a clever way for the Wise to instill unwavering wisdom within your subconscious.
 

Coleridgean

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Perhaps no one individual has meditated on philosophical alchemy to achieve gold via the ever-regenerative Philosopher's Stone, however consider that the secret college was born out of the Rosicrucians, and that the Royal Society was born out of the secret college. And then all science has flowed from this arcane discipline. Even Francis Bacon wrote Sylva Sylvarum, and he was considered the father of modern science and the scientific method. So in a roundabout way, yes, meditating on philosophical alchemy has ultimately brought about hoards of gold.
 

Awani

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Call it what you want; "inner alchemy", "philosophical alchemy", etc. While useful and applicable in many ways...this is not real Alchemy.

Honestly the same can be said of Practical Alchemy: Call it what you want; "practical alchemy", "laboratory alchemy", etc. While useful and applicable in many ways...this is not real Alchemy.

:cool:
 

Schmuldvich

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Perhaps no one individual has meditated on philosophical alchemy to achieve gold via the ever-regenerative Philosopher's Stone, however... ...So in a roundabout way, yes, meditating on philosophical alchemy has ultimately brought about hoards of gold.

Ha! Good point. Indeed, utilizing that line of deduction you certainly could say that meditating on philosophical alchemy has ultimately brought forth tons of gold.


Honestly the same can be said of Practical Alchemy: Call it what you want; "practical alchemy", "laboratory alchemy", etc. While useful and applicable in many ways...this is not real Alchemy.

:cool:

I like how you think! :cool:

While intentionally you could say that the same can be said of physical Alchemy, can you really though...?

If you say that physical Alchemy is not real Alchemy, then what in the world would you go on to define as 'real Alchemy'?
 

Awani

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If you say that physical Alchemy is not real Alchemy, then what in the world would you go on to define as 'real Alchemy'?

Well the main problem with this discussion is the word itself. It's like saying: what is the real Christianity? Is is the Pope and his gang? Is it the Gnostics? The Russian Orthodox? Etc.

Alchemy is a word that defines a category I guess. Etymologically according to Wiki:
The word alchemy was borrowed from Old French... and which is in turn borrowed from Arabic... the Arabic word is borrowed from Late Greek chēmeía... ‘black magic’... this ancient Greek word was derived from the early Greek name for Egypt, based on the Egyptian name for Egypt... ‘black earth’... - source


SHAMANISM

My position is that the original source of any form of transmutation or transformation stems from the ancient art of Shamanism. A shaman uses methods to achieve various forms of results through either potions (laboratory alchemy) or other means (spiritual alchemy). Most "modern" humans that encountered shamanism viewed it - and still to this day it is viewed by some assholes - as "black magic".

So if alchemy is just an old word for "black magic", then alchemy is nothing more than the Art of Shamanism.


EGYPT

But even if all I have written now is wrong then let's look at Egypt.

Egypt is not the beginning of civilisation. The human race did not one day stop being Stone Age man and suddenly erect a few pyramids and elect a Pharaoh. Egypt is the END of an older civilisation... and it is from this "older" civilisation the alchemical art comes from. Egypt is a culture that is extremely spiritual. There is no doubt about this. Their whole culture was about "gods", "afterlife" and such things. Yes, they were also very interested in the physical matter of our world and thus created some amazing structures... but the reason for these is clearly in the realm of the "spiritual" of some sort.

So even if the word "alchemy" only comes from Egypt it is clearly not only about some "physical act".

---------------------------------------------

So what is REAL alchemy?

If it is about the transmutation/transformation of the self into a higher state then it is REAL alchemy.

This was the goal of the old Egyptians, as well as the goal of those involved with Shamanism. To create real gold is certainly not the purpose, and those that think it is are not alchemists in my book, but if they are in their own books that is none of my business.

In my humble opinion.

:cool:
 
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zoas23

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Ha! Good point. Indeed, utilizing that line of deduction you certainly could say that meditating on philosophical alchemy has ultimately brought forth tons of gold.

I get the point of Dev, probably the least lab oriented person here.

Maybe the discussion is if alchemy IS about getting a lot of gold. I know some people think that way... and I wish them the best and I hope that they will get all the gold they want.

My own vision is that occidental alchemy (I can't talk about, say, Chinese alchemy, because it's not a subject that I understand) was born out of Gnosticism... and whilst I don't call the Gnostic texts "Alchemy", the resemblance is too obvious.

Donald Trump has more money than any alchemist ever had... I would not be his apprentice though. If we reduce alchemy to producing richness, then I'd say that Trump is by far more worth than anyone's favorite alchemy classic. So get his bio and maybe you'll get what you want.

But if you think that Alchemy is a philosophy... a way of understanding the universe... a way of understanding life... then probably Trump is not a character that inspires you.
 

Awani

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I get the point of Dev, probably the least lab oriented person here.

Not entirely true. My cauldron and lab is my body... and many wonderous experiments can be performed with it. But yes, as for pseudo-Alchemy [chemistry] you are correct... not that into it. Unless I'm making some DMT (but actually got a life time supply at the moment, so I don't ever need to make that ever again).

:cool:
 

JDP

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Honestly the same can be said of Practical Alchemy: Call it what you want; "practical alchemy", "laboratory alchemy", etc. While useful and applicable in many ways...this is not real Alchemy.

:cool:

No, you can't. Even if for argument's sake we assumed that the Philosophers' Stone does not exist and artificial transmutation is "impossible" short of having the atom-smashers devised by modern physics, you still cannot reverse the roles. So-called spiritual alchemy is a mistaken interpretation of the subject which is only about 2 or 3 (at most) centuries old, while alchemy (i.e. the issue of making the Philosophers' Stone and turning base metals into noble ones) is at least more than 2000 years old. Historical seniority alone shows that the fake and usurper here is the purely imaginary "spiritual alchemy" that came much later, the product of a mistaken understanding of the subject.
 

elixirmixer

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Dev [Awani] would be expressing more alchemical values than most, by treating his body as his laboritaory...

I do not plan on reading 18 pages of this thread, but would like to respond to the title of this thread.

Even with my beginner like attitude, my love for laboritory work, and my distaste for inactive principles and a lack of expression for the human evolution, I too must share, express, represent (for lack of better words) the deep inner truth that dev has touched on in this his last post. The body is indeed the true laboritory. You can learn all the secrets of alchemy, and still cheat yourself of all its blessings, if you do not learn and understand the the true Magnus Opus, occurs within the self... not as some fairytale, halucinagenic, dreamtime (although it does manafest itself as such in some stages of growth) but as a living, breathing, energy in the body, that is being spiritually cultivated in the same way that we think of the manafestation of SM, in order that you may become 'holy' or 'whole', having filled up the 'light vessels' within the body...

Modern Christianity is fucked, because while their 'religion' does indeed encapsulate the entire truth, much like alchemy itself, Christianity is only know in its fullness, by a very select few.

Jesus: "I have chosen you, one in a thousand, and two in ten thousand"

Jesus:"It is given to you, to know the dominions of the heavens, but to these, it is not given.
 

Coleridgean

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...So-called spiritual alchemy is a mistaken interpretation of the subject which is only about 2 or 3 (at most) centuries old...

I'd say 4+ centuries old, beginning with the publication of the Alchymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz, or even as far back as John Dee's Monad (Monas Hieroglyphica). And in the King James Bible (ye are the salt of the Earth) ... so it is a legitimate complement to English literature and deserves a moniker of its own, but we could equally call it Renaissance Hermeticism.

However, even Zosimus in about the 5th century A.D. was interpreting dreams by his alchemical experiment.
 

Schmuldvich

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As for pseudo-Alchemy [chemistry] you are correct... not that into it. Unless I'm making some DMT (but actually got a life time supply at the moment, so I don't ever need to make that ever again).

Extracting your own DMT is no doubt a rewarding experience. In the past I have used mimosa hostilis root bark with great success. What is your go-to source of DMT when extracting it yourself, dev?


No, you can't say "Honestly the same can be said of Practical Alchemy: Call it what you want; "practical alchemy", "laboratory alchemy", etc. While useful and applicable in many ways...this is not real Alchemy." Even if for argument's sake we assumed that the Philosophers' Stone does not exist and artificial transmutation is "impossible" short of having the atom-smashers devised by modern physics, you still cannot reverse the roles.

So-called spiritual alchemy is a mistaken interpretation of the subject which is only about 2 or 3 (at most) centuries old, while alchemy (i.e. the issue of making the Philosophers' Stone and turning base metals into noble ones) is at least more than 2000 years old.

Historical seniority alone shows that the fake and usurper here is the purely imaginary "spiritual alchemy" that came much later, the product of a mistaken understanding of the subject.

Yes! What JDP is saying here is fact: "spiritual alchemy" is a new phenomenon only a couple hundred years old, whereas the real art of Alchemy is way more than 2,000 years old. So-called "spiritual alchemy" is a completely modern invention.

Don't believe us? Go ahead and search for the words "spiritual alchemy", or even "inner alchemy" or "philosophical alchemy", in any old Alchemy treatise. You will not find one single instance where any of these terms are ever used.


Dev [Awani] would be expressing more alchemical values than most, by treating his body as his laboritaory...

In what way is dev expressing more Alchemical values here than most by "treating his body as his laboratory"?

You can learn all the secrets of alchemy, and still cheat yourself of all its blessings, if you do not learn and understand the the true Magnus Opus, occurs within the self...

How can someone possibly "learn all the secrets of alchemy and still cheat himself of all its blessings"? This statement makes little sense, elixirmixer. If a person learns all the secrets of Alchemy would they not be in complete control of themselves and the world around them?

The term you were attempting to use above is not "Magnus" Opus. The correct term is Magnum Opus. Do you know what this is?

A magnum opus is 'a large and important work of art, music, or literature, especially one regarded as the most important work of an artist or writer'. Notice that last part of the definition. Our Magnum Opus as Alchemists is what we call the Great Work. The goal of the Great Work is the production of the Philosopher's Stone.

Why do you say that the true Magnum Opus occurs within the self when it is clear that our Magnum Opus is the successful accomplishment of the physical, tangible Philosopher's Stone here on Earth?
 

Awani

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Extracting your own DMT is no doubt a rewarding experience. In the past I have used mimosa hostilis root bark with great success. What is your go-to source of DMT when extracting it yourself, dev?

For further discussion on this topic:



Short answer same as you, but have Acacia also. If you want to continue this topic see above threads or create new one in "Shamanism" section.

------------------------------------------------------

...whereas the real art of Alchemy is way more than 2,000 years old. So-called "spiritual alchemy" is a completely modern invention.

Don't believe us? Go ahead and search for the words "spiritual alchemy", or even "inner alchemy" or "philosophical alchemy", in any old Alchemy treatise. You will not find one single instance where any of these terms are ever used.

The answer to this is simple. They did not seperate the two aspects in those days, as we do today. To them it was simply "alchemy"... in fact the original alchemy might not even have been called alchemy at all...

And as I have stated earlier I think alchemy is an offspring of shamanism (and shamanism is also a modern word). But we need words to discuss so let's ignore the actual words.

Shamanism is both practical and spiritual. As is alchemy. If an alchemist is ONLY approaching alchemy from a practical perspective it is - in my opinion - pseudo-Chemistry.

"Thoughts create a new heaven, a new firmament, a new source of energy, from which new arts flow." - Paracelsus

“Imagination is a great power, and if the world knew what strange things can be produced by the power of imagination, the public authorities would cause idle people to go to work.” - Paracelsus

But is Spiritual Alchemy a valid path? Only those on it can say if it is or not. ;)

:cool: