Is Spiritual Alchemy A Valid Path?

[Dwellings]

Alchemy at its base level provides with a means of producing truckloads of gold by using a little amount of red powder known as the Philosopher's stone. This is the basic definition of alchemy.

I want to ask:
How can by merely meditating chakra kundalini Inner Alchemy or whatever mumbo jumbo you want to call it can you end up with insane amounts of Gold?

Let's proceed with a quote by Ab Roek

Internal / External fallacy

Many are lead astray by the recent inventive fallacy of "internal vs. external" Alchemy. Untrained noses are thrown off the Scent of the real Trail, and distracted by the piss markings of those who have not seen the Trail through to its more important Landmarks. The true way is distinguished by the scent of Roses.

Keep in mind that the Ancients did not advocate the distinction of "internal vs. external" Alchemy. It is not because they weren't as smart as you or me, and hence didn't know enough about the varieties toward which their Subject could be applied. Although many of them did use blinds to confuse the unserious seeker, they never stooped to telling a lie (that is, such a lie as the "internal vs. external" view of Alchemy). Occult blinds are not the same as lies, learn well the difference and understand.

It is a belief that is without foundation. Moreover, this belief only serves to limit one's perspective and approach, and, once accepted as "true," does much to actively generate misunderstanding among those who are seeking the reality behind Alchemy. This is why I called it a "lie." (As well to help distinguish it from the use of occult blinds)

Do not take my previous post as being personally directed at you, or any one single person on this forum. I've seen traces of this belief in dozens of other posts here, as well in a good number of the modern written works on Alchemy. It is a recent error, perpetuated by authors who were trying to fit Alchemy into their own belief systems and their own knowledge of other traditions.

I am saying, there are some some beliefs that seekers hold onto which will only prohibit their understanding. If one wants to find the truth behind the tradition of Alchemy, one must decide to see things as they are, rather than how one would like them to be.

Try letting go of the belief for three months, and during that time actively try to understand Alchemy without it.

"Whoso loveth unquietness, let him be reformed."

When you claim that you do not have a belief about this issue, meanwhile go on to defend, justify, and in other ways cling (indeed) to the belief which underlies the internal / external error, your actions and words become a fundamental contradiction. If you believe you are being straightforward, look deeper and see whether you're being honest with yourself on this issue- begin with the statement "I do not have a belief about this..." Your actions and predilections of study will tell you what your beliefs are-- whether you are consciously aware of them or not does not change the fact that they guide your course.

Furthermore, to say that the "internal / external" error is "useful" to hang onto both betrays a preference which you do not wish to let go of (presuming you meant what you said), and promulgates a roadblock to progress in Art. For, this internal / external error is the very opposite of useful, in that it only serves to obfuscate the seeker's understanding of Alchemy, in both its theory and practice. To thus claim that something is "useful" for the ends of Alchemy, when in fact it only prohibits and stunts the maturation of that Art, is more than merely flawed logic.

Let's be clear here, that when you have grasped the Prima Materia, and reflected upon the consequences of your realization, you will also realize precisely why I say that the "external / internal" view of Alchemy is a Lie. Until that time, you are only theorizing and offering your opinion, which cannot be grounded upon anything other than speculation. I say cannot, because I know from personal experience that Alchemy only becomes possible after the revelation of the Prima Materia. The fact that you think this is some sort of disagreement over syntax is further evidence that you fundamentally do not understand the core of the issue, and from your mistaken point of view, you feel the next best course of action is to come up with thought-strings which serve to defend your own ego and beliefs on the matter.

This is not about you or any more than it is about me, or any other single individual. There are many who post here who have become infected by this error, which the interested and diligent reader can trace through numerous threads on this forum. Saying "there is no inside or outside, therefore anything goes" is disingenuous, and dissembling. When anyone truly realizes (abolishes) the Vanishing Point which seems to separate "in here" from "out there," they will not continue advocating for that distinction in their discussions on theory and practice.

Let everyone continue to experiment, and find out the truth for themselves. I have offered more than enough for the sincere seeker on this particular subject.

He sums up my viewpoints quite eloquently and I doubt that I could have put up a better arguement.

Come out or you will end up only fooling yourselves.

 

[Awani]

I want to ask:
How can by merely meditating chakra kundalini Inner Alchemy or whatever mumbo jumbo you want to call it can you end up with insane amounts of Gold?

You cannot. Because why the hell would one waste time doing that... those that hunt for physical gold are the fooled. Even if they get truckloads. Also your defenition of alchemy is your own, and you cannot claim authority over its meaning.

 

[Dwellings]

You cannot. Because why the hell would one waste time doing that... those that hunt for physical gold are the fooled. Even if they get truckloads. Also your defenition of alchemy is your own, and you cannot claim authority over its meaning.

1. What is wrong with hunting for huge amounts of Gold even if it takes time?

2.Regarding the definition of alchemy
Certainly not, ask among the public, you will get the same (many would have read Harry Potter) so there is that.

3. When did I ever claimed I know the meaning or its authority? Can you point it out in my post?

Well my aim is to use their data, their words and show that they are wrong. This is why I wrote the above definition.

 

[Loki Morningstar]

As Harry Potter was brought up. It's worth talking about the fact that we could say that J.K.Rowling managed to, through Spiritual Alchemy, turn masses of paper into gold.

 

[Awani]

1. What is wrong with hunting for huge amounts of Gold even if it takes time?

2.Regarding the definition of alchemy
Certainly not, ask among the public, you will get the same (many would have read Harry Potter) so there is that.

3. When did I ever claimed I know the meaning or its authority? Can you point it out in my post?

1. If gold fulfills your life go for it.

2. "The ancient study of alchemy is concerned with making the Sorcerer's Stone, a legendary substance with astonishing powers. The stone will transform any metal into pure gold. It also produces the Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal." - from Harry Potter

Basically Harry Potters view of alchemy is closer to your view of it than it is mine own... how ironic.

3. I was simply saying that no one can own the definition, so just because you see it one way doesn't mean it makes it so for everyone else. You and I are not the authority... only the author of our on view on the matter.

 

[Loki Morningstar]

My belief is that the prima materia is the mind of the alchemist. The alchemists goal is to turn his mind into the stone by gathering as much information, about as many topics, as possible. The alchemist then has the ability to turn any material into gold (or money). The elixir of life is the useful knowledge he has distilled, which makes one immortal by sharing this knowledge, in the same way that great scientists are immortal.

At the same time, we could say if an alchemist finds the 'true' stone, he may find ways of making himself actually immortal; either spiritually, or bodily. As he would have knowledge of the whole universe and its workings.

 

[Dwellings]

My belief is that the prima materia is the mind of the alchemist. The alchemists goal is to turn his mind into the stone by gathering as much information, about as many topics, as possible. The alchemist then has the ability to turn any material into gold (or money). The elixir of life is the useful knowledge he has distilled, which makes one immortal by sharing this knowledge, in the same way that great scientists are immortal.

At the same time, we could say if an alchemist finds the 'true' stone, he may find ways of making himself actually immortal; either spiritually, or bodily. As he would have knowledge of the whole universe and its workings.

No, you are way off the true path.

In the alchemical process

1. Why is there a violent fight at the begining?

2. Why sometimes you need to prepare "Doves of Diana".

How can you explain these in terms of what you have written.
The fact is you cant.

It also seems like you did not read the first post.

 

[Dwellings]

1. If gold fulfills your life go for it.

2. "The ancient study of alchemy is concerned with making the Sorcerer's Stone, a legendary substance with astonishing powers. The stone will transform any metal into pure gold. It also produces the Elixir of Life, which will make the drinker immortal." - from Harry Potter

Basically Harry Potters view of alchemy is closer to your view of it than it is mine own... how ironic.

3. I was simply saying that no one can own the definition, so just because you see it one way doesn't mean it makes it so for everyone else. You and I are not the authority... only the author of our on view on the matter.

The correct definition assuming somebody knows it will never be described in plain terms to anyone.

I find it surprising that you will nitpick on the definition. That is more common in physicsforums when you come out with data proving that Einstein ws a fraud.

Have you ever conducted a survey among local people, I have as a part of college project (Market Research on famous authors and their overall strategy for sales and marketing) and this was one of the questions and this is from where I came up with the above definiton

 

[Awani]

You will get different views if you do local market research about alchemy in, for example gold obsessed USA, compared to a place like India. Regardless the reason I focus on your definition is because it is how you define alchemy that cause you to denounce spiritual alchemy.

Everything has an outer aspect (practical) and an inner aspect (spiritual). If focus is only on the practical all you have is form. Form without spirit is empty. Sure you can make gold either way, but I rather reach a state of peace than have all the gold in the world.

When you reach a certain state of consciousness gold becomes no different than wood.

I have also done a personal observation (not related to you in any way as I do not know who you are), but the most gold obsessed alchemists have two traits in common: they are Americans and they are "poor". I don't have any judgement on this. I just think it is interesting, because having lived in USA for a time I know that this society is obsessed with greed. And the "white trash" of the United States all think that money will solve all their problems. It won't.

My own view of alchemy is the transmutation/transformation of the self into a higher state of being.

Your view of alchemy is not wrong, I just disagree personally that Spiritual Alchemy is a hoax. I think a certain kind of practical alchemy is important, but the gold chasing alchemist... well I think "that" is the true joke.

But it is true there is a lot of New Age-styled empty mumbo-jumbo spiritual alchemist gurus and those folks are indeed a hoax. So yes I agree in part with what you say. But there are child molesters who recycle, so there is good and bad in everyone/everything.

 

[JDP]

My belief is that the prima materia is the mind of the alchemist. The alchemists goal is to turn his mind into the stone by gathering as much information, about as many topics, as possible. The alchemist then has the ability to turn any material into gold (or money). The elixir of life is the useful knowledge he has distilled, which makes one immortal by sharing this knowledge, in the same way that great scientists are immortal.

At the same time, we could say if an alchemist finds the 'true' stone, he may find ways of making himself actually immortal; either spiritually, or bodily. As he would have knowledge of the whole universe and its workings.

What you are proposing here is "magic", not "alchemy". Alchemy does not try to rely on any mysterious Jedi-like mind powers. Alchemy was a part of natural science, it relied on reactions between substances, which are not affected by ones wishes or ideas about them. They simply "are". They do not care one bit what one thinks or wishes, just like gravity doesn't care one bit what one thinks or wishes of it, it will just do "its thing" regardless of what one wants. The job of the alchemist was to find the correct substances, the correct proportions, and the correct reactions to manufacture the Stone.

 

[Awani]

Yeah and politicians and presidents were meant to serve the public and not rape and steal and murder and lie at every turn. Shit happens.

And what is the point of making the Stone with only physical methods? What is the point of doing that other than just having a geeky adventure (which is fine, we all need hobbies)?

 

[Dwellings]

And what is the point of making the Stone with only physical methods? What is the point of doing that other than just having a geeky adventure (which is fine, we all need hobbies)?

To me, it is not an adventure but it is as important as my life & I take Alchemy very seriously.

Alchemy at its base level provides with a means of producing truckloads of gold by using a little amount of red powder known as the Philosopher's stone. This is the basic definition of alchemy.

I want to ask:
How can by merely meditating chakra kundalini Inner Alchemy or whatever mumbo jumbo you want to call it can you end up with insane amounts of Gold?

I do not think you need to be told what an adjective/adverb does to a statement. Read this with your previous responses to my original post, you will get why I wrote so.

Alchemy at its core is the study of nature. Hence it is a physical science not spiritual as many will argue. Also, this Inner Crap seems to be argued by those who do not get generally what Prima Materia is.

 

[JDP]

Yeah and politicians and presidents were meant to serve the public and not rape and steal and murder and lie at every turn. Shit happens.

And what is the point of making the Stone with only physical methods? What is the point of doing that other than just having a geeky adventure (which is fine, we all need hobbies)?

That's what alchemy is and always was, why question its goals and methods? If it is not to one's liking, then seek another pursuit. But do not try to "hijack" alchemy and claim it was really about mysterious mind powers that no one has ever proved they exist in the first place. Now that would be an excellent situation to ask your question: And what is the point of making the Stone with "mental" methods for which there is no proof whatsoever that they even exist in the first place?

Besides, if such mental powers did really exist, I can't imagine anyone wasting his time making the Stone. A person possessed of such mental powers would have pretty much anything he wanted already, would have a blast everyday of his life and have most his time already occupied doing other things, like going around looking for hot chicks and mentally convincing them that you are the man of their dreams:

**SAID A LA OBI-WAN KENOBI** "The clown you are with is not the man you are looking for, dump him. I am the studliest stud of your wildest dreams, the one you have been fantasizing with all your life, you will invite me to your apartment tonight..."

Alchemy: Jedi Knights Need Not Apply (because they are already plenty busy doing a million other amusing things with their amazing mind powers)

 

[Andro]

Alchemy at its core is the study of nature. Hence it is a physical science not spiritual as many will argue. Also, this Inner Crap seems to be argued by those who do not get generally what Prima Materia is.

Does "Nature" not have a "spiritual" cause? (Hermetic Law of Causality)

I see Alchemy as involving Spiritual Principles practically applied (inside the "Alchemical Crucible" and laboratory) in & to the realm of physical matter, thus taking it beyond mere chemistry.

What, in you view, are the attributes of the "Prima Materia" (generally)?

You quoted Ab Roek earlier. If I'm not mistaken, both of you have openly admitted not to have performed practical laboratory work yet. It could be interesting to hear your perspectives after commencing the practical Work.

For me, it's fascinating to observe how physical matter can have its properties radically altered when treated alchemically. Or even matter "mysteriously" appearing where there was none before.

The Work in itself doesn't seem to require any "spiritual mind powers". However, a deep, primordial (dare I even say Gnostic) inner-standing of Spirit (and its manifestations, attributes and affinities in the physical realm) seems to be necessary in order to uncover the mysteries of the actual Practical Work.

 

[JinRaTensei]

Would you consider things like "hallucinogenic visions" or astral travel or generally everything "Mumbo Jumbo Jedi Mind trick" what shamans worldwide are doing daily?
What about healing/regeneration(self remission/spontaneous self healing), precognition or knowledge one should not have according to physics?

What about dreams if they tell us things about "reality" also fake?
What about mushrooms and DMT ?
What about remote viewing?

Where exactly is your line between "reality" and everything else?

 

[Andro]

Would you consider things like "hallucinogenic visions" or astral travel or generally everything "Mumbo Jumbo Jedi Mind trick" what shamans worldwide are doing daily?
What about healing/regeneration(self remission/spontaneous self healing), precognition or knowledge one should not have according to physics?

What about dreams if they tell us things about "reality" also fake?
What about mushrooms and DMT ?
What about remote viewing?

Where exactly is your line between "reality" and everything else?

All those are valid in my own experience (except that I'm not familiar with psychedelic substances, which I don't use for shamanic work or for anything else).

But these are not "Alchemy" in the classical/canonical sense of the term, although the same rules generally apply to every area of research and inquiry.

 

[JinRaTensei]

But these are not "Alchemy" in the classical/canonical sense of the term, although the same rules generally apply to every area of research and inquiry.

I guess that can be the case but to me it does not matter. I view it all as "cultivation" and only rely on the laws which rule everything else. So like you mention if the same rules apply than there can be no practical achemy without inner alchemy or even if it would not be called inner alchemy it would still work and be "real"

 

[Awani]

That's what alchemy is and always was, why question its goals and methods? If it is not to one's liking, then seek another pursuit. But do not try to "hijack" alchemy and claim it was really about mysterious mind powers that no one has ever proved they exist in the first place. Now that would be an excellent situation to ask your question: And what is the point of making the Stone with "mental" methods for which there is no proof whatsoever that they even exist in the first place?

Besides, if such mental powers did really exist, I can't imagine anyone wasting his time making the Stone. A person possessed of such mental powers would have pretty much anything he wanted already, would have a blast everyday of his life and have most his time already occupied doing other things, like going around looking for hot chicks and mentally convincing them that you are the man of their dreams:

**SAID A LA OBI-WAN KENOBI** "The clown you are with is not the man you are looking for, dump him. I am the studliest stud of your wildest dreams, the one you have been fantasizing with all your life, you will invite me to your apartment tonight..."

Alchemy: Jedi Knights Need Not Apply (because they are already plenty busy doing a million other amusing things with their amazing mind powers)

Ah. I see. Ok. Well I don't waste time with teenager arguments, nor with those that repeat a question as an answer. Enjoy matter. Since that is all you see, that is all you will ever get. I am going to use the ignore function. With a simple button I can manipulate my forum reality. Wonderful is it not.

 

[Awani]

Alchemy at its core is the study of nature. Hence it is a physical science not spiritual as many will argue. Also, this Inner Crap seems to be argued by those who do not get generally what Prima Materia is.

If you looked a bit into this inner crap maybe you would be less inclined to waste energy about trying to convince the converted that it is a hoax. LOL.

 

[Andro]

So like you mention if the same rules apply than there can be no practical alchemy without inner alchemy or even if it would not be called inner alchemy it would still work and be "real".

Alchemical Elixirs can be powerful supports/additions/enhancements to the Inner Work one is performing. Many ancient traditions (such as various Martial Arts, etc...) have Alchemical 'Back Rooms', usually accessible only to the highest initiates. Even one account of a Dzogchen master who was witnessed to achieve the 'Rainbow Body' reveals that he partook of the 'Blessed Medicine' prior to disappearing from the physical realm.

 

[JinRaTensei]

Thx for the link Andro it is very interesting to me personally!

 

[JDP]

Would you consider things like "hallucinogenic visions" or astral travel or generally everything "Mumbo Jumbo Jedi Mind trick" what shamans worldwide are doing daily?
What about healing/regeneration(self remission/spontaneous self healing), precognition or knowledge one should not have according to physics?

What about dreams if they tell us things about "reality" also fake?
What about mushrooms and DMT ?
What about remote viewing?

Where exactly is your line between "reality" and everything else?

Can anyone prove that what Shamans claim they do is real? It goes on inside their heads, no one can prove anything regarding such claims. Who knows what goes on in there under the influence of hallucinogens.

There is a difference between the claims of alchemy, which are of a more concrete and substantial nature, and thus subject to investigation and proving/disproving, and all the claims you just mentioned, which there is no way of proving them.

 

[JinRaTensei]

Sure there is a way to proof it, personal experience. Just because most of us have not had such experiences does not mean the experiences of others are lies or delusions. And there is "proof" for many things considered fringe and not possible.
Like I say where do you draw your line of what is real?
Is the Astralbody real?
Is the "soul" real?
Are Telekinesis and Psychokinesis real?
Are remote viewing, precognition and prophecies real?
Are lucid dreaming, astral travel and dreamwalking real?

Because their is scientific "proof" for all of it out there.

Just tell me..or rather yourself where do you draw the line of what is real and spend a day with google and a open mind trying to proof yourself "right" or "wrong"

 

[Loki Morningstar]

I wasn’t going to post a reply. Way too much negativity on this thread for me. Although I feel that there is a chance that my words may help so I shall just reply as simply as I can.

1. The body, and mind, are material objects last time I checked, not mumbo jumbo. (Non-materialists, completely see your view too; on the fence myself too. Just talking in terms a materialist may understand.)

2. From what I gather, all alchemy started in philosophy. Most of these philosophies coming from the east, from Ancient Greece, China, Tibet, Egypt, etc. And as they came closer to the west got more and more right brained.

3. As for the whole idea of alchemy being a practical art. That only seems to be the case in the West. The East was more about internal alchemy and creation of tinctures for health from herb. As far as I am aware, from what I have read. For example Neidan and Waidan.

As it got more western and right brained it seem it changed, two reasons I can think of:

i. To convince people (kings, lords, people with money) that it was worth paying them to do research.

ii. Western greed causing the chase for gold. Perhaps after seeing all the gold in the east they were astounded, and perhaps doubted the amount of work the eastern people may have put in to get it. Perhaps thinking that they could just magic it up. Superstitious lot the westerners lol. (I am one myself)

4. Looking at the reasons someone may wish to create gold. Generally this will come down to them feeling that they need something that they currently don’t have in their life. And we can distill this to feelings of wanting to be happy.

Why not jump straight into the finding ways to be happy part?

5. Personally I am not sure how practical alchemy is any more likely to bring gold into our personal reality than spiritual alchemy. As a realist, I find it more likely that I could bring gold into my reality by trading and being good at it, by purifying my will and motivation for hard work. I feel it is much less likely that I will turn a base metal into gold. Especially as, as far as we are aware, all the gold on earth was created in the furnace of a star.

It is proven that we can produce gold, although it takes massive amounts of energy, more energy than most chemical reactions will ever create. The energy costing much more value than the gold will give in return. It seems to me like exchanging a chicken for some eggs.

Whereas, using the ancient art of metal work, we may turn iron into steel, and steel into a sword, then sell the sword for much more gold than the cost of the steel, or the amount of time it took us to make it. Or we may take common chemicals and turn them into gunpowder. Another great way to make some money. Although both being weapons, not my cup of tea. Although a much easier route to gold in my eyes.

Western alchemy, for me, was just the beginning of chemistry and physics. Which I do totally like to learn about. Although that is common knowledge in the west. The part that seems more hidden, or esoteric, to me is inner alchemy, and psychology. I personally prefer to see alchemy as a label for my love of esoteric wisdom, and my goal as an alchemist is to educate myself. To me knowledge is an alchemists true gold. And I am not saying that my way is the only way. All road lead to rome eventually.

My personal goals are to learn about how sacred geometry is linked to physics, how linguistics can become more advanced, how linguistics effect the mind, getting to know myself and how my mind works, how reality is encoded in the brain, etc. I feel I will get much more value from this, than I could from any gold. I would have to agree with dev, alchemists chasing gold will only end up ending up with fools gold in the end. Even if it is pure Au, it can’t truly make you happy.

Personally, to me, the philosophers stone is a tablet of information. Hence the name. It is all the alchemists knowledge and wisdom distilled and concentrated into the smallest form he can, then ‘etched on a tablet’ for prosperity. The philosophers stone to me is metatrons cube, knowledge of harmonics, mathematics, chemistry, physics, knowledge in its simplest form, etc.

And through this knowledge one can get as much gold as one wants if the knowledge is used for that means.

Finally, I would like to say, these are just my views, and I do not profess that they are correct, right, 'the way' or 'the true path'. Please, can we just get on. As alchemists we are already outsiders to 'popular' society, lets not have infighting eh?

Much love to you all. Wishes of peace and happiness.

Loki

 

[Awani]

From what I gather, all alchemy started in philosophy.

Actually in my humble opinion alchemy is a direct result and offspring of shamanism, and the shaman is the true alchemist.

Way too much negativity on this thread for me.

Yes, well it is a very negative affair to be knee deep in materialism.

Also finally I would like to say that to denounce an entire section of the forum to be a hoax is a bit insulting to all the people that spend time there. I can only imagine if I create a thread saying Practical Alchemy is a hoax and a sham... which I don't think it is.

I think the world needs more bisexuality. Straight people and homosexual people are on equal ground: they only have one option (although gays usually have at least tried the other option before they go rogue)!!!