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Hermes Trismegistus Old and True Natural Path - now available in English

sam

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Months ago I read thru the well known transcript of the above book which is available for quite some time for download on the web. Many places in the text were hard to understand and when comparing it with the original (at the Bavarian state library) I found numerous transcription errors. I corrected those and the pdf of the corrected German file will be made available for download shortly.

In the meantime I was doing a quick-and-dirty translation into English which later evolved into a quite precise albeit not very eloquent translation. An alchemist friend from the US came to help with editing and polishing and now the texts is very readable, has proficient explanations (as footnotes) of hard-to-comprehend parts and contains both English and German texts in one book for comparison.

Its availabel from LULU:

Des Hermes Trismegists wahrer alter Naturweg (Leipzig, 1782)
 

vega33

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I've just received word my copy of this is about to ship, so I can read/review it over the next month. Glad that an English copy of this is finally out there in the wild! Der Compass der Weisen is a great classical text, so I'm interested to see how this compares.
 

Illen A. Cluf

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I've just received word my copy of this is about to ship, so I can read/review it over the next month. Glad that an English copy of this is finally out there in the wild! Der Compass der Weisen is a great classical text, so I'm interested to see how this compares.

I received mine a few weeks ago. As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the best and most revealing texts that I have come across. You have to read it very carefully to catch the hints - which are actually quite open and bold. It has opened a whole new meaning of the initial preparation for me.The rest of the entire procedure is surprisingly explained very openly in very great detail.

In short - it is far more than worth the purchase price. I'm not making a pitch for the translator - I don't even know him.

A companion book of the very same caliber is Récréations Hermétiques (Hermetic Recreations and Scholies) which has never knowingly been published in English before. It says much of the same, and fills in some of the gaps not explained in Naturweg and the two should definitely be read together.

An English translation, the first of its kind, will be published in the near future by someone I know. These two books together are a must-have, and will give insight into the method of Cyliani.

Illen
 

Krisztian

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A companion book of the very same caliber is Récréations Hermétiques (Hermetic Recreations and Scholies) which has never knowingly been published in English before. It says much of the same, and fills in some of the gaps not explained in Naturweg and the two should definitely be read together. An English translation, the first of its kind, will be published in the near future by someone I know. These two books together are a must-have, and will give insight into the method of Cyliani. Illen

Thank you Gentlemen for posting this title! I appreciate it.

I have a strong attraction to Cyliani. Happy to hear your comment.
 

vega33

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I received mine a few weeks ago. As far as I'm concerned, this is one of the best and most revealing texts that I have come across. You have to read it very carefully to catch the hints - which are actually quite open and bold. It has opened a whole new meaning of the initial preparation for me.The rest of the entire procedure is surprisingly explained very openly in very great detail.

In short - it is far more than worth the purchase price. I'm not making a pitch for the translator - I don't even know him.

A companion book of the very same caliber is Récréations Hermétiques (Hermetic Recreations and Scholies) which has never knowingly been published in English before. It says much of the same, and fills in some of the gaps not explained in Naturweg and the two should definitely be read together.

An English translation, the first of its kind, will be published in the near future by someone I know. These two books together are a must-have, and will give insight into the method of Cyliani.

Illen

I'd tend to agree on the basis of what I've already read of the text since receiving it this morning... It is essentially speaking of salt as the first coagulations of the spirit, attracted as it is to water, as we know orgone is, which is what makes the statement of the translators of Fulcanelli that much more interesting about the smell of calcined sea salt. I've known the word since my experiments with Von Wellings experiment, it is interesting seeing it confirmed over and over again in the works of the masters, more so I.C.H, considering his place in the tradition, especially in the case of having been one of the true initiators of Westcott's, albeit post hummus ;)
 

Draconisnova

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I get my copy yesterday, i was surprised how fast was the shipment, since i live in Europe it surpass all my expectations.

About the book it self, is very similar to Fulcanelli in my opinion, he have the same ideas and concepts, the translation is very good, but there are some Latin words that in my opinion could have a different meaning,

For what i have read (only 40 pages) the Prima Materia could be two things, or is urine or something extracted from human body or dew. And like Fulcanelli it tells the importance of the 3 repetitions to raise the stone, and this not many alchemist consider important or consider at all. First we need to extract the Philosophical Mercury, then another repetition to extract the Sun and the Moon, then mix all together and we have our true Rebis.

Nice job, i would like to have more books this kinds, many Latin manuscripts full of useful material, but their not available to everyone since this lingua mortis is not easy to decode.

Draconisnova
 

Krisztian

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Nice job, i would like to have more books this kinds, many Latin manuscripts full of useful material, but their not available to everyone since this lingua mortis is not easy to decode.

I concur. The translator, Gunner Kossatz, has done an impressive job; I believe his consultation with 'fk-alchemie forum' probably didn't hurt either.

I'm quite taken by the clear descriptions, in other words 'plain English'. It comes just at the right appropriate time for me in my work.
 

sam

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I concur. The translator, Gunner Kossatz, has done an impressive job; I believe his consultation with 'fk-alchemie forum' probably didn't hurt either.

I'm quite taken by the clear descriptions, in other words 'plain English'. It comes just at the right appropriate time for me in my work.

That you for the flowers - I have to add I am a total greenhorn with little over a year experience in alchemy. This text was hinted at by some of the "old hands" at the above mentioned forum and the translation was originally only meant as a help for an american friend with whom our small group of enthusiasts share infos on a regular basis. He should receive all praise for the final English form, into which he transcribed my rough original translation from German.

And yes, the impressive Latin-to-English interpretations are entirely from the old-hands-group of fk-alchemy.
 

sam

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I get my copy yesterday, i was surprised how fast was the shipment, since i live in Europe it surpass all my expectations.

LULU also prints inside the UK, so it depends where you live in Europe - shipment to Germany was rather sluggish.

-sam
 

Andro

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A companion book of the very same caliber is Récréations Hermétiques
An English translation, the first of its kind, will be published in the near future by someone I know.
Illen

Illen,

Any news/updates about this upcoming English translation of Récréations Hermétiques?

It's been almost 8 months since your announcement :)
 

Andro

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Returning to the translation of 'Hermes' Old And True Nature Path', the inner title page contains the following alternative title:

The Secret Of How To Prepare

The Great Universal Tincture

Without Glassware

For Humans And Metals

I find the addition of 'Without Glassware' to be rather intriguing...

I have not explored the 'classical' ways in depth, as my methodology is somehow different, but I think it's definitely worth a closer look...
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Illen,

Any news/updates about this upcoming English translation of Récréations Hermétiques?

It's been almost 8 months since your announcement :)

Unfortunately, my friend hasn't mentioned it since. I will check with him on the status.

Illen
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Returning to the translation of 'Hermes' Old And True Nature Path', the inner title page contains the following alternative title:


I find the addition of 'Without Glassware' to be rather intriguing...

I have not explored the 'classical' ways in depth, as my methodology is somehow different, but I think it's definitely worth a closer look...

However, he does mention the use of a crucible. As for the "vessel", he may mean the human body. I think urine or blood is hinted at.

Illen
 

Andro

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I will check with him on the status.

Please do :)

This (Récréations Hermétiques) is one book I've been wanting to read for a long time, but unfortunately French is among the languages I don't speak :eek: (yet...)
 

Andro

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I think urine or blood is hinted at.

Sounds likely and reasonable. Many 'classical' paths imply one or another micro/macro-cosmic 'water' as 'Our Saturn' or what not....

Oops, I just made up two 'new' elements: Mercurine & Sulfurine !

LOL :cool:
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Please do :)

This (Récréations Hermétiques) is one book I've been wanting to read for a long time, but unfortunately French is among the languages I don't speak :eek: (yet...)

If he doesn't publish it, I will send you a reasonably decent translation. I don't speak French, but over the years have developed a basic - although crude - understanding of the written version.

Illen
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Sounds likely and reasonable. Many 'classical' paths imply one or another micro/macro-cosmic 'water' as 'Our Saturn' or what not....

Oops, I just made up two 'new' elements: Mercurine & Sulfurine !

LOL :cool:

The only problem is that Rosicrucian documents seem to have their own spin on the classical approaches.
 

teofrast40

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Hallo Andro and Illen,

However, he does mention the use of a crucible. As for the "vessel", he may mean the human body. I think urine or blood is hinted at.

Illen
Could you please point me to the mention of the crucible? As I don't recall it.
Andro, regarding the vessel, the Récréations state quite clearly that the only vessel is the matter itself which behaves like a container for the (celestial) water of which it is imbibed.
Of the three texts Cyliani - Récréations -ICH, the last two are the more textually connected, the place where they differentiate the most being the the first part, about the matter to be used. While ICH gives some hints to man as microcosm and centre of creation, and to the matter to be taken from him (somehow supporting Illen's hypothesis), the Récréations, or more rightly the Scholia (from 4 to 12), talk more explicitly about clay, stating (15) that clay is the first and natural matrix of the whole world. The récréations talk also about Nabucodonor's dream (Daniel 2, 31-35) of the giant whose body was made of metals, and the feet of clay and iron, that could be also a possible suggestion to some sort of electrum.
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Could you please point me to the mention of the crucible? As I don't recall it.

If you have the recently published version, it's on page 34. If not, it's in the section called "About the Differences of the Tinctures in the Dry and Wet Path".

He says:

But they differ and have their specific labels because on the dry path the Tincture of the Gold is digested by way of a dry Powder in the Crucible and placed into a pluperfect or tinctural state, ...".

Of the three texts Cyliani - Récréations -ICH, the last two are the more textually connected, the place where they differentiate the most being the the first part, about the matter to be used. While ICH gives some hints to man as microcosm and centre of creation, and to the matter to be taken from him (somehow supporting Illen's hypothesis), the Récréations, or more rightly the Scholia (from 4 to 12), talk more explicitly about clay, stating (15) that clay is the first and natural matrix of the whole world.

I totally agree that the Récréations/Scholia refer to clay as the matter. The several references leave no doubt.

It's odd how similar they are (obviously the later versions were based on the earlier versions), yet they differ so significantly on the matter used.

Illen
 

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It's odd how similar they are, yet they differ so significantly on the matter used.

I look at a matter like looking at a 'prison'.

There are maximum security prisons, very difficult to break - and there are minimum security prisons, with cultivated white collar 'guests' :)

But in the end, all prisons can be broken in to & out of... Some, however, more difficult than others... But in the end, they all contain more or less the same 'seeds'...
 

Andro

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Andro, regarding the vessel, the Récréations state quite clearly that the only vessel is the matter itself which behaves like a container for the (celestial) water of which it is imbibed.

Still, I would think the matter would need some sort of external vessel to hold it. 'Compass' mentions this and the difference between those two kinds of 'vessels'.

I haven't read 'Récréations', so I can only speculate that it talks about preparing the matter to be a magnet for Spiritus Mundi (Universal Mercury, etc...) - unless the 'celestial water' to which the text refers is also artificially prepared and manually imbibed.
 

Illen A. Cluf

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I look at a matter like looking at a 'prison'.

There are maximum security prisons, very difficult to break - and there are minimum security prisons, with cultivated white collar 'guests' :)

But in the end, all prisons can be broken in to & out of... Some, however, more difficult than others... But in the end, they all contain more or less the same 'seeds'...

Yes, but still there is a world of difference between urine and clay. How can someone, following a previous treatise so very closely in almost all details, come up with SUCH a radically different matter?
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Still, I would think the matter would need some sort of external vessel to hold it. 'Compass' mentions this and the difference between those two kinds of 'vessels'.

I haven't read 'Récréations', so I can only speculate that it talks about preparing the matter to be a magnet for Spiritus Mundi (Universal Mercury, etc...) - unless the 'celestial water' to which the text refers is also artificially prepared and manually imbibed.

I think it all depends on whether an Alchemist is talking about a "philosophical" vessel, or an "actual" vessel. The "philosophical" vessel would be the material in which the SM is contained, while an "actual" vessel is the "container" in which the matter is processed. As I mentioned above, I.C.H. uses a crucible rather than a glass container.
 

Andro

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I think it all depends on whether an Alchemist is talking about a "philosophical" vessel, or an "actual" vessel. The "philosophical" vessel would be the material in which the SM is contained, while an "actual" vessel is the "container" in which the matter is processed. As I mentioned above, I.C.H. uses a crucible rather than a glass container.

Yes, this seems to be the commonly used terminology, which often gets mixed up when deciphering texts.

Yes, but still there is a world of difference between urine and clay. How can someone, following a previous treatise so very closely in almost all details, come up with SUCH a radically different matter?

1. There is not such a big 'world of difference', considering that all matter is 'seeded' alike, but developed to different degrees of evolution....

2. Clay (if this is indeed the matter of that text) may also refer to a microcosmic matter, if we look (for example) at the Hebrew linguistic similarities:

DaM - ADaM - ADOM - ADaMaH
אדמה - אדום - אדם - דם
Blood - Man - Red - Earth

3. All this being said, I will be able to comment much better after I've read 'Récréations' in English - So I'll just wait for updates from the translator you mentioned :)
 

teofrast40

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Thanks Illen for the reference. Effectively the symbol used here in the original edition seem to stand for crucible. That said, personally I would hesitate to consider the crucible as the main vessel, even in the dry path of this text.
If references to temperatures in ICH are a vague range from warmness, to avoiding vitrification during lapidificatio (so maybe a bit higher here..), the Récréations are quite categoric,
Il ne faut pas que la température passe quinze degrés de Réaumur (18° C).
Temperature must not overcome 15 degrees Reamur (18° C)
Also I wouldn't worry that much about the discrepancies in suggestions to the matter of the work, as from Zosime on, descriptions of it have always been symbolical and metaphorical. It could easily be that all the three authors referred to the same substance (we can find reference to red earth, adamah etc. also in ICH and Cyliani), be it clay, urine, both, or something else, or that each one of them had something different in mind.
As for the vessel, Andro, in ICH it's less clear, but in the Récréations -and Palmer, I cited him in the ancient thread on Cyliani- it's quite evident that the only vessel needed for most of the (this) work is a simple dish.

Cheers
t