Heated Debate Over the Dew & Salt Method (philowar)

[Andro]

Once this charge or spirit is 'lost' we are left with 'empty water'.

If it's kept in well sealed vessels after collection and/or fixed by a suitable Magnet, it will keep the "charge".

And then you need to collect more...

Some good texts (such as Cyliany and Recreations) are explicitly telling us that we need a lot of this "Corporified Astral Spirit", much more than we need the "Earthly Matter" (quantitatively speaking).

Quoth Cyliani (Hermes Unveilded): "One of your vases, she said, seems to hold more androgynous matter than you will need, but you have not taken enough of the Astral Spirit. You need infinitely more. And, as Arnold of Villanova said, it is necessary to have an abundance of water, of distilled spirit, but your fault is excusable."

The classical Alchemical Authors have deliberately obscured the corporification of the Astral Spirit/Aerial Niter in large/potent quantities.

The "recipes" from the Ruesenstein book should be taken with some extra grains of salt, although in principle, they are not necessarily misleading or lying, except maybe by omission.

IMO.
_________________________________

Here are some images from a much earlier experiment of mine, basically a "particular" approach which could also be more "universalized".

It is in fact a rather "basic" Spagyric preparation, but in which the "external" Aerial Niter is also introduced.

First, some corporified "Aerial Niter", attracted and fixed with a "Magnet" of a fatty consistency, specifically prepared for this purpose.

In this particular case study, these subtle "Aerial Niter" crystallizations are separated, cleaned and liquefied on their own, whereby even more "Aerial Niter" is attracted and fixed/corporified.

I.e. "It takes birds to attract more birds".

Note: There are faster, easier and more quantitatively yielding ways to corporify this "Astral Spirit" or "Aerial Niter".

Those ways can vary between different practitioners and can be discovered by diligent and dedicated work and experimentation, in parallel with studying the texts that describe it.

To continue:

The particularly prepared Spirit used for this process (which is also "enriched" with "Corporified Niter") is mostly clear, but with a very slight golden tint and a slightly "fat" consistency. It "mixes" with the matter intimately.

The matter after some imbibitions:

The matter between imbibitions, desiccated:

This is another "Starting Matter" (from a different experiment, also from years ago), in the process of being prepared to receive the "Aerial Niter" or "Astral Spirit".

Finally, after more imbibitions and desiccations, the matter starts to break down and go towards a blackness of a pitch-like consistency:

Eventually, after more imbibitions, a Crystalline Whiteness will start to appear around the edges and spread, which can be separated and further rectified with its Spirit.

Please note that this is only a "Spagyric", the only difference being that the "Aerial Niter" is also participating as an Agency in its Preparation.

The eventual result in this case is a sort of Circulatum (as per Urbigerus) which can be either kept in the Plant Kingdom or "universalized".

 

[Philosophical]

If it's kept in well sealed vessels after collection and/or fixed by a suitable Magnet, it will keep the "charge".

Very interesting comment you have made Andro.

I am having a hard time reconciling this with what you say afterwards quoting cyliani re needing "infinitely more" of the spirit. Surely we do not need so much if the charge isn't 'lost' when fixing. It is my understanding that we do need a lot of astral spirit and that it is 'conservative' in that if I have some amount of charge in water A once it is fixed to our matter then we no longer find it in our 'empty water'.

I thank you for reviving such an old topic..despite the schism such a topic created in the past. It probably created such a fuss because IMO there is something to it..just a few things being occulted.

 

[Andro]

Surely we do not need so much if the charge isn't 'lost' when fixing.

Even so, we still need plenty of it.

It is my understanding that we do need a lot of astral spirit and that it is 'conservative' in that if I have some amount of charge in water [...] once it is fixed to our matter then we no longer find it in our 'empty water'.

Any potential superfluities are "evaporating", leaving inside the matter only the portion which is of interest to us, as the latter mixes intimately with the matter.

I thank you for reviving such an old topic... despite the schism such a topic created in the past. It probably created such a fuss because IMO there is something to it... just a few things being occulted.

Yep...

 

[Philosophical]

Even so, we still need plenty of it.
Any potential superfluities are "evaporating", leaving inside the matter only the portion which is of interest to us, as the latter mixes intimately with the matter.

Right, so if I follow you the potential superfluities "evaporate" and the matter then contains the charge we are after. It is no longer in the superfluities. This is what I mean by 'lost' when all we have is the superfluities it is 'empty water', it is conservative in this sense.

I see in my last post I misspoke when I said 'we need a lot of astral spirit'. We need a lot of astral spirit 'infused' water. That may have made my post confusing.

Thanks for sharing pictures of your work Andro.

 

[Andro]

superfluities "evaporate" and the matter then contains the charge we are after.

Yes. But it's much better if the matter has been priorly already been "prepared to receive".

Thanks for sharing pictures of your work Andro.

Gladly. But it's nothing extraordinary.

Like I said, it's just a relatively simple Spagyric, but I shared it here because of the nature of this particular experiment, which is related to the topic of this thread.

Instead of "treating" this prepared material with merely a traditional spagyric spirit/menstruum, the prepared menstruum was additionally further "enriched" with the "Aerial Niter" that this thread talks about, which is present in Air, in Dew, in Rainwater and other sorts of "Waters".

 

[Philosophical]

Yes. But it's much better if the matter has been priorly already been "prepared to receive".



Gladly. But it's nothing extraordinary.

Like I said, it's just a relatively simple Spagyric, but I shared it here because of the nature of this particular experiment, which is related to the topic of this thread.

Instead of "treating" this prepared material with merely a traditional spagyric spirit/menstruum, the prepared menstruum was additionally further "enriched" with the "Aerial Niter" that this thread talks about, which is present in Air, in Dew, in Rainwater and other sorts of "Waters".

I thought so but either way, there is something I appreciate about the photos. Spagyrics is not something I have worked with and while I know it's not alchemy as such, it feels assisting to my understanding - a picture says 1000 words.

 

[Andro]

Spagyrics is not something I have worked with and while I know it's not alchemy as such

Indeed, it is not "alchemy" as such. But even Spagyria can be potentially "raised" to a soft alchemical "start", which occurs by introducing the Astral Spirit/Aerial Niter, which is "external" to the matter, because this "Astral Spirit" is not a result of separating & purifying the principles already contained in the material, but "external" to them and of a different, more "universal" provenience.

 

[Philosophical]

Andro, I am curious what you are willing to share about your "dew on steroids"? I assume it is part of the ICH lineage as they talk about astral spirit a lot, I have missed any preparation done to the astral spirit though, despite plainly stating when to collect it and thus imo giving a good indication as to what they're referring to. Is it a process that occurs in the flask after capture or something about the capture itself? I have my own approach that I am experimenting with to replicate Earth's atmospheric processes on a micro scale but the ancients would not have been able to do this in the same way I am working on. Dew is an interesting POC but I think it is impractical to work with en masse, perhaps I am a little dull though and just dont know the right way to work it.

 

[Andro]

Andro, I am curious what you are willing to share about your "dew on steroids"? I assume it is part of the ICH lineage as they talk about astral spirit a lot, I have missed any preparation done to the astral spirit though, despite plainly stating when to collect it and thus imo giving a good indication as to what they're referring to.

ICH is giving us VERY generous hints about this process in the "non-practical" sections of his text. Especially when he talks about the "generation of metals" (quoting Seton/Suchten/Sidonius) and their "Seed" or "Sperm".

I've elaborated a bit more in this post and the one after it.

What remains is to study and practice.

 

[Andro]

Addendum:

I think the 'ICH" lineage is one of the very best and most clear ones out there. It includes the works of ICH, Cyliani, Zadkiel, Hermetic Recreations and possibly others such "The Key to the Hermetic Sanctum".

However, they all employ extensive quotations from their predecessors, especially ICH (if memory serves).

ICH is also special in that he distinctly describes the "Universal Way" and the "Way with Metallic Gold". Cyliany only describes the latter and only briefly hints at the former.

What's interesting is that those authors seemingly appear to allude at different "Starting Matters" (so-called "Prima Materias") to work on, which is totally legit.

For example, ICH is explicit that "it" comes from a human, while Recreations hints at some sort of "Clay", which could be either common clay (post-preparation) or even some sort of "Gur" (the "clay" from a water sediment).

But regardless of the "Matters" those authors are describing, the procedures are almost identical in all their works.

And the "Astral Spirit" (i.e. the "Aerial Niter" discussed on this thread) is the same in the entire lineage.

 

[microwatt]

Addendum:


For example, ICH is explicit that "it" comes from a human, while Recreations hints at some sort of "Clay", which could be either common clay (post-preparation) or even some sort of "Gur" (the "clay" from a water sediment).

.

so go ferment your GW.

 

[Philosophical]

Thank you Andro,

ICH lineage is one if my favourite too and I have read all of these texts except Zadkiel so thank you for the connection. How is it known the Zadkiel manuscript is part of the same lineage?

Microwatt,

I think there is half a chance that it comes from the other side of the coin so to speak rather than GW..

 

[Jimmy Rig]

Thank you Andro,

ICH lineage is one if my favourite too and I have read all of these texts except Zadkiel so thank you for the connection. How is it known the Zadkiel manuscript is part of the same lineage?

Microwatt,

I think there is half a chance that it comes from the other side of the coin so to speak rather than GW..

And the only thing I have ever seen light up the flask with rainbow colors was such a kabbalistic subject matter although it was "married" with its equal/opposite both coming from the same source.

Though do not take this as a wild claim of success, it is not but it WAS INTERESTING!

 

[Jimmy Rig]

Some food for thought for you guys

If you take some vegetation and seal it in a flask, or even leave it to the elements eventually you will get a sort of compost, and within a sealed flask likely some fluid as well.
This takes time but can be sped up with heat (compost).

Now if you EAT some vegetation(or anything really) you really speed up the process of making compost due to the intense digestive fires of the body.
Also the body separated the subtle from the gross for you. Some cities are looking into extracting gold from human waste and I am pretty sure the masses are not wealthy or creative enough to try gold as an digestible health supplement..

Take from this what you will, man being the microcosm and all.
All animals have this gift, but man is in a unique position to rectify it.

Bird droppings are RICH in nitrogen, and come out WHITE
If they sit on the hot asphalt, some types (diff species) literally turns to what looks like quicksilver in the heat of the summer sun (this is what I observed in July taking my children for walks to the park.)

Some thoughts I thought might be relevant, or not.
Thanks for the posts everyone.

 

[Philosophical]

Thanks for sharing Jimmy. I have begun experimentation with some other 'animal fires' that were spawned from a reading of the golden chain (though not an experiment directly talked of in it) I may have more to share on this soon I imagine.

On the subject of this particular matter, I believe it was Paracelsus who told physicians he was going to teach them some great secret of medicine (could it be for man and metals?) and proceeded to show them a plate of feces. In disgust they left and he is quoted as saying something like "If you do not know the wonder of putrefactive fermentation you have no right to call yourself physicians". Quite a claim but in light of what we are discussing, relevant and revealing.

 

[Andro]

How is it known the Zadkiel manuscript is part of the same lineage?

Same Three Rotations, same description of the Philosophical Mercury, same sequence of operations and much more...

If you haven't read Zadkiel, I've just uploaded it [link broken] for everyone's benefit.

Some quotes from Zadkiel:

About the "Matter":

"The Root is a substance which is neither metallic or mineral, but partakes of both; and arises from the putrefaction and decomposition of both mineral and vegetable bodies; it is soft and malleable, sometimes one color, sometimes another."

"The metallic germ is frequently found in it, and it is so common that there is not a child who knows not of it; and yet this plentiful and well known production, is the womb or vehicle which is most fit for the Astral and Fructifying Fire of the World; to work its slow and secret operations in, on the formation of metals; it may be found and seen everywhere; it is common in fields and marshy places; it is not necessary to dig deep in the bowels (entrails) of the Earth for it, as it is frequently found at the depth of a man's leg."

"This Matter the Philosophers called their Vase, and with good reason too - for it holds the Astral Spirit in itself, and contains it in all its workings, until it putrefies with it, and becomes one body with it, and then it acquires the name of the First Matter, which is so earnestly sought after by those who devote themselves to the study of the Art of Hermes."

About the "Astral Spirit":

"The generative essence of nature then, is a subtle Fluid, compounded of Light and Air, which is capable of penetrating all things."

"This is what the Philosophers call their Astral Spirit, their Water of the Sun and Moon, etc.; and this is what the hermetic student must learn to obtain, before he can commence his operations in the art."

"For this purpose, the Philosopher’s Loadstone (Magnet) must be discovered, for it has the power of attracting this Fluid, and of giving it a substantial form."

[...]

"The proper time for the harvest of this Fluid, begins when the Sun enters the sign of the Ram, on the 20th or 21st of March, and continues till he quits the sign of Gemini, about the 20th of June."

"It must be gathered (harvested) after sunset, when the Moon is at or near her full; and the wind must not blow violently at this time; the Sun's rays are reflected by the Moon, and the air is strongly impregnated with the Astral Fluid, or Niter."

[...]

"Their Medicine and Universal Solvent is nothing more than this Fluid, carried to its highest level of concentration and fermentation. It may be considered like Condensed Fire, and is brought to this state of purity, by being frequently fermented and putrefied with the Mineral Matter."

"With these two materials we begin the Work of Hermes, and for this commencement we must take nature for our guide; for in like manner as she softens and gives to the earth its fructifying property, by rain and dew, so we imbibe our Solid Matter with our Astral Spirit."

"By this means our matter becomes incorporated and combined with the generative essence of nature, contained in our water."

 

[Philosophical]

Thank you Andro you are worth your weight in viscous salt.

 

[Andro]

Thank you Andro you are worth your weight in viscous salt.

Thank you very much for your kind words

 

[tAlc]

I'm very impressed with Andro and Philosophical.

Philosophical, you barely post since you've signed up, and from the small amount of posts you have, I appreciate you spending the time talking with me.

so go ferment your GW.

What would fermenting GW do?

Microwatt,

I think there is half a chance that it comes from the other side of the coin so to speak rather than GW..

Who's to say fermenting GW can't accomplish something.

 

[Philosophical]

I'm very impressed with Andro and Philosophical.

Philosophical, you barely post since you've signed up, and from the small amount of posts you have, I appreciate you spending the time talking with me.



What would fermenting GW do?



Who's to say fermenting GW can't accomplish something.

Thank you tA, I try to keep the signal to noise ratio low on my posts. When I feel I have something to offer I do, otherwise I lurk..a lot, a decade of searching still going strong.

As for your question re GW, I'm not saying it cannot be of use. Not at all. Rather that in True and Old Natural Path I have a hunch it feces. Urine is definitely useful, from what I understand of the process (why urine? Why feces) perhaps it is more useful in fact. I have not experimented with actual feces yet to say for sure. All I am saying is it's not always necessarily urine that is spoken of.

 

[Murgen]

Hi Horticult.

This gray/green powder is the beginning of the salt vegetation.
The sea salt, during the work of successive distillations, must pass by various phases.
The first is the black. It is the putrefaction.
The second is the green. It is the vegetation. The sea salt becomes again living and starts again its evolution.
Then we must see the grey then the white.
It is very difficult to obtain the red.
We can stop with the white if it had passed by the black and the green before.
We keep the distilled liquid of this last distillation.
We crush white salt with pure gold sheets.
We add little by little the distilled liquid, very continuously to crush the mixture.
Gold then will dissolve, because it is very related to purified salt.
We then obtain a liquid containing gold in solution.
We filter.
We put this liquid to be distilled.
At the end of distillation, a kind of red/brown gum must remain at the bottom.
It is the sulphur of gold.
We can continue work while putting the distilled liquid on deposit.
The goal is to make gold sufficiently volatile so that it is distilled with the liquid.
When all gold (or a good part) is distilled, we can stop.
It is then enough to let evaporate the distillate.
We have then a yellow/red resin.

It is the Philosopher's stone of this path.

I'm aware that I'm resurrecting old subjects ...

Do you agree with the following hypothesis :

In the course of its successive distillations and purifications, the salt begins to become a magnet capable of attracting increasingly subtle volatile substances, so much so that at one point (around the 6th distillation), it attracts to itself, during the phases when salt and distillate are separated, a subtle vital substance in the air that reanimates it and enables the subsequent putrefaction to begin.

 

[black]

I'm aware that I'm resurrecting old subjects ...

Hi Murgen

Many of the old subjects (posts) are extremely valuable as with this post you have presented here from Green Lion.

Do you agree with the following hypothesis :

No.

In the course of its successive distillations and purifications, the salt begins to become a magnet capable of attracting increasingly subtle volatile substances, so much so that at one point (around the 6th distillation), it attracts to itself, during the phases when salt and distillate are separated, a subtle vital substance in the air that reanimates it and enables the subsequent putrefaction to begin.

Green Lion is talking about the Primary Alchemic Process here .... all the way through to the Philosophers Stone (the Basic Foundation Stone of Alchemy).

The Putrefaction (the Black stage) starts early in the first cycle of the Work in a sealed flask ........ if the Blackness is not seen in a few hours then something about the Work is not correct.

 

[Murgen]

Thanks.
Ok, so concretely the black stage has to happen after the first distillation, when salt and distillate are gathered again, in a quite sealed flask