Heated Debate Over the Dew & Salt Method (philowar)

Krisztian

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Paracels speek very clear or only with conceps (mental ideas or seeds, and You need to mentally make them grow ).

I also get quite the 'kick' out of the style of writing you have, pneumatician.

I'm not sure whether you mean [the quote above] that this is true or not, but it's been my realization, keep coming back to this point, that the Universal Medicine, the Lapis, needs to be grown, guided, by the inner transformation, the mental imagery of the alchemist. That's what I keep learning in manuscripts from 16th Century. And I specialize in that period.

There're very specific mental sequential imagery that's involved here. So from this perspective, the dew itself is somewhat empty without the mental impregnation by the alchemist. The process is not as physical as some would like to believe, that's why it doesn't work for everyone.
 

pneumatician

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And do you know? What are you trying to say, really?

You say this and that is wrong. OK. I understand.

What is your alternative? What is 'right'?

Just asking because of your above statements...

well done :)

yes theoretically I known the solve keys. (exist a more easy process and that is why I am not interested in)
exist alchemy life beyond RAMS library... and talking of rams library... a guy say RAMS docs are not all complete, missing data or parts of manuscripts... I send two emails to rams asking this and no reply... if anyone have the rams CDs get the Bactroms manus. in archive.org and compare please


[link broken]

are the LA guys searching chimeras :confused:

"right" is something nobody is doing, basically because nobody get the elixir.

My alternative cost you 500 million euros free of taxes :) (clearly I are tempted to ask for 1 billion but...)

but... taste to whet your appetite...

Island named in the letter... some time ago I search a bit and ended with the temp conclusion: the island is the now named "Isla do Sal" in Cape Verde", BUT THIS IS INDIFFERENT :)
 

Andro

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If your knowledge of 'the solve keys' is only theoretical, it's irrelevant. First test it in the fire of practice.

The problems with the RAMS collection are well known to me. Problems of translation/interpretation and many others. Also you are right, they are not very good at replying to emails...

The path with Salts from 'Sea' and 'Dew' is a potentially valid one, but some keys are missing. There are both wet and dry variations.

What's right is what works. Saying that nobody got the Elixir would imply that you know EVERYBODY and that they were ALL honest with you about not having it. Is this the case?

Mod Edit: Off-topic comments & arguments removed, to keep the subject matter constructive and coherent.
 

pneumatician

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I also get quite the 'kick' out of the style of writing you have, pneumatician..

:D

I'm not sure whether you mean [the quote above] that this is true or not, but it's been my realization, keep coming back to this point, that the Universal Medicine, the Lapis, needs to be grown, guided, by the inner transformation, the mental imagery of the alchemist. That's what I keep learning in manuscripts from 16th Century. And I specialize in that period..

yes like any other creative proces (painting a picture ddesign a car, building... but alchemy is the most high spiritual science... we can create something greater in this reality that the PS? well, perhaps an UFO, but I think anyway we also need the PS ... :D

There're very specific mental sequential imagery that's involved here. So from this perspective, the dew itself is somewhat empty without the mental impregnation by the alchemist. The process is not as physical as some would like to believe, that's why it doesn't work for everyone.

don't lost reality, the PS is a phisical thing, the rest are mystical fog, religious mumbo-jumbo...
 

pneumatician

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If your knowledge of 'the solve keys' is only theoretical, it's irrelevant. First test it in the fire of practice.

What's right is what works. Saying that nobody got the Elixir would imply that you know EVERYBODY and that they were ALL honest with you about not having it. Is this the case?

you are right, but if anyone make the test and get the elixir, do you really think that someone will come in here to say that?

Mod Edit: Off-topic comments & arguments removed, to keep the thread & subject matter constructive and coherent.
 

Andro

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To return to the original topic: You apparently claim you know something about this process that others are missing, so would it be possible for you to elaborate more on the topic you brought up?

If you have something of value to contribute and enhance the understanding of where this process is 'wrong' or 'lacking', you are more than welcome to do so.

Thank you.
 

Florius Frammel

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I know this thread has not been wriiten in for some time.......but sea salt/saltpeter made fusible by dew only gives philosophical salt, our secret fire, it can be used alone for some purposes but it is not a finished stone, he is only the priest that presides over the marriage of philosophical sulfur and philosophical mercury, red man to white wife, he's the referee that officiates over the battle between the fiery salmander and icy remora of Cyrano. " La Rosee Brule le Sel " The Dew Burns the Salt" by Roger Guasco also gives the protocol.

The original "recipie" is not from Guasco though.
Canseliet in his comment on the Mutus Liber describes the exact same process like Guasco, but tells his sources.

He found it in one of the volumes of (imo quite trustworthy) Heinrich Pott's (a student by Georg Stahl; both men were also quoted by Fulcanelli in his two books) "Chymische Untersuchungen".
After some quick searches however I could not find the passage there.

There is a very interesting quote by Pott in 'Dwellings'. Worth to look it up, imo.

Pott on the other hand has allegedly found this very method in the (latin) book "Lumine Novo Phosphoris Accenso" by a certain Cohausen, but I can't read latin (yet).

I'd be glad to know if someone could identify the passage in one or the other book.
 

LeoRetilus

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The original "recipie" is not from Guasco though.
Canseliet in his comment on the Mutus Liber describes the exact same process like Guasco, but tells his sources.

He found it in one of the volumes of (imo quite trustworthy) Heinrich Pott's (a student by Georg Stahl; both men were also quoted by Fulcanelli in his two books) "Chymische Untersuchungen".
After some quick searches however I could not find the passage there.

There is a very interesting quote by Pott in 'Dwellings'. Worth to look it up, imo.

Pott on the other hand has allegedly found this very method in the (latin) book "Lumine Novo Phosphoris Accenso" by a certain Cohausen, but I can't read latin (yet).

I'd be glad to know if someone could identify the passage in one or the other book.

First I wonder why to go back to a very old thread and even back several posts and pick on something I wrote and call it a mistake... assure you, like I made clear in my apology I made many errors, they are countless to point out, lol

Also I made it clear, I was not here to be drawn into debate and it will make me disappear very quickly...

Its hard to know or imagine where any particular practice originated from.... and matters little IMO, maybe it was handed down word of mouth for centuries before even ever written , maybe it began with Adam and was transmitted by the Angel Raziel...what matters is THE Practice

Although Ive found this and other lil particulars useless, the spirit is Agent and Must have A Patient, that is a cause! A subject to work,act on...one that requires...rectification!
 

tAlc

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The path with Salts from 'Sea' and 'Dew' is a potentially valid one, but some keys are missing. There are both wet and dry variations.

I personally think theres only one path. Wet and dry are stages of the one true path. Alchemists went as far as to call their own work the Salamander which is aquatic and landbase and Philathetes regarded the work as "aquatic-fire".

In the beginning, the Seed contained All. This is how Anything began. Paths that are exclusively "Wet" or "Dry" lack All that is needed to begin. "Too much moisture and you'll drown the alchemical child, too little and won't have enough to drink"... did I quote that right.. I think so :D

The Yin/Yang cannot be without the other.

What's right is what works. Saying that nobody got the Elixir would imply that you know EVERYBODY and that they were ALL honest with you about not having it. Is this the case?

As pneumatician said, no alchemist would make themselves known to have the Elixir or prove that they have the authentic process. Authentically. Also, it's never happened before, by this reason they do not exist on any margin scale.
 

Florius Frammel

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First I wonder why to go back to a very old thread and even back several posts and pick on something I wrote and call it a mistake... assure you, like I made clear in my apology I made many errors, they are countless to point out, lol

Also I made it clear, I was not here to be drawn into debate and it will make me disappear very quickly...

Its hard to know or imagine where any particular practice originated from.... and matters little IMO, maybe it was handed down word of mouth for centuries before even ever written , maybe it began with Adam and was transmitted by the Angel Raziel...what matters is THE Practice

Although Ive found this and other lil particulars useless, the spirit is Agent and Must have A Patient, that is a cause! A subject to work,act on...one that requires...rectification!

Sorry, it was really not my intention to criticize you!
The Guasco method is mentioned several times in quite some thread over the years and I could have quoted anyone who posted something about it. I like to read through the old threads. They contain very interesting information imo. It's somehow like listening to music from years ago. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's worse than the new stuff.

The only reason why I did it was just to add additional knowledge to the subject I found out recently as I could not find this information on the forum.

I thought that maybe some others would also be as interested in this connection of the french lineage and Pott/Stahl that is mentioned in Fulcanelli's books.

The actual method could be even older as JDP pointed out here:



BTW, Fulcanelli mentioned something about (Georg) Stahl talking or writing something about cathedrales. I could not find any such a kind of mentioning in Stahl's works. If someone knows more, I'd be happy to learn!

I'm sorry if this is considered/perceived as merely showing off, or me trying to put you down. Not the case and really nothing personal!

On the other hand, when thinking about it, I'm somehow missing 'heated debates' like this one used to be. They can be very fruitful. But I don't want to setup an argument for debate's sake.

And I appreciate and enjoy your input in the Phonetic Cabala thread very much!
 

Andro

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See my posts 29 and 31.
I have read this process in "Selected Chemical Universal and Particular Processes" of Baron Von RUESENSTEIN.
Frederico Gualdus told about this process in this text.

n5hBx8N.jpg
 

Andro

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We can compare and draw parallels with a somewhat different approach & application involving Sea Salt, by Abbe Rousseau, also from RAMS:

Primum Ens of Salt

By Abbe Rousseau


I have understood since some years, that the universal salt, by Paracelsus and Van Helmont called the Primum Ens of salt, is nothing else than the universal spirit and universal Dissolvent, corporified in the most simple of all sublunary Salts, being as it were an embryonated Seminal salt.

This salt is not found separately in Nature, but it can be separated from the Body of other salts, as their Heart, Life and Center.

This Separation cannot conveniently be done without the Action of that very same Universal Spirit dispersed in the air and in all things!

Which Universal Spirit (in fire) corporifying itself with this universal salt, decorporifies it again and renders it incoagulable, and this universal salt proceeds from seawater, nay it is the very Life and Soul thereof, (sea salt).

I have shown to some friends what this nitre is, but I do not think they will ever take the trouble to carry it to that perfection; it is capable of being brought to, by Art and patience!

Process upon Sea salt, in order to obtain the first Ens of salt, or the very Leaven of salt and its Life and spirit.

Note that the process upon the Mother Lye of nitre and vitriol is the very same as this upon the Mother Liquor of Sea salt.

It is very curious to observe in the first preparation of this salt, (Mother Liquor is Primum Ens Salis) the different Figures of Crystals and the different smell and taste of them, proceeding from the Sea water, before it is reduced to a State, (by continual evaporations and crystallisations) so as to crystallise no more, but remains an oily Mother Liquor, wherein is Primum Ens Salis.

It becomes then a Liquor, which is incoagulable and will not crystallise; a thick and fat water of a Fiery Taste, attracting continually the Universal spirit, in the Shape of humidity out of the air.

This fat matter resolves itself into a very ponderous Oil, which is distillable in a sand heat, if you have but patience sufficiently. It rises in the retort in the same manner as honey does and requires a great deal of time, attention and patience.

After the distillation of this oil, there remains a Residuum, which is fusible like wax, and which by Labor, Art and patience all comes over as a spirit and volatile salt, without mixing any intermediate Substance therewith such as bole or clay, which would absolutely destroy it.

The whole Substance of this salt passes over into the receiver as a Liquor and this is not of trifling Consideration, as it is a proof that it is now become of a Universal Nature.

After this I think it would be superfluous to ask from whence the Salt proceeds in the Ocean. As we see clearly that is nothing else but a sensible and Visible Corporification of the Universal Sal Mundi, which is invisibly dispersed throughout all Nature and resides in the vast Extent of the air where it is generated and multiplied by means of the Suns and Moon's Light and the Stars.

All the great Philosophers, since Hermes Trismegistus, have taught this Doctrine, but as they have not proved it by Experiment, as I have done, our modern little Philosopher's have looked upon that Doctrine as a Metaphysical Chymaera and have ridiculed it: although it is an essential Truth, founded on the invariable principles of Nature!

Observe that you ought to have at least 400 lb. weight of seawater, in order to obtain a reasonable or moderate quantity of the Primum Ens Salis.



We can note how each different variation/approach can provide us with additional "keys", not mentioned in the other "methods"...
 

Andro

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Another good "Summary of Principles" from Gualdus, from the same RAMS document of Ruesenstein:

hfoTfE6.jpg


But it's good to keep in mind that even IF we realize AND apply ALL the Keys involved with such processes, they are not likely to take us much further than a metallic (or vegetable) Tincture/Sulfur, even if it's a relatively potent one (which it definitely can be, from experience). Or possibly a Metallic Tincture for various "Particulars".

For a truly/fully potent "Philosopher's Stone", the most hidden and least explained preparation of a Philosophical Mercury is required, which is NOT the same as all those various differently obtained but similarly acting tincture-extracting Spirits/Mercuries, even though the Universal Spirit IS involved in all of them.

Unlike the metallic (or vegetable) Sulfurs/Tinctures extracted by those Spiritus-Rich Spirits, the Philosophical Sulfur rendered via a genuine Philosophical Mercury is a "body" that subsequently goes through "death and resurrection" (multiple times), each time receiving a more "glorious" body/life than it had before. This Philosophical Mercury is an insanely subtle "salt", as pertinently described by ICH, Cyliani, Zadkiel & Recreations, which is neither of "alkaline" nor of "nitrous" nature. And while is it completely "natural", it is also a "Natural Novelty". It is the "Moon" or "Luna" of the Sages. And when dissolved in "Our Spiritus", it is our "Virgin Milk", with which we "feed the Infant".

Most (if not all) Alchemists that I know (myself included) can reach a certain "plateau" at this stage, and it can be difficult to fully go beyond it. It is indeed a challenging roadblock to overcome, and a work in progress for me.

These are my current thoughts on this matter.
 

Andro

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Last excerpt with "Sea Salt" from Ruesenstein that I'm posting here:

CcO5QnY.jpg
 

Jimmy Rig

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Hi Andro,

Thanks for posting all of this.
My own understanding has clearly grown over the last few years as I pretty clearly understand these texts.

However your point here:
" Unlike the metallic (or vegetable) Sulfurs/Tinctures extracted by those Spiritus-Rich Spirits, the Philosophical Sulfur rendered via a genuine Philosophical Mercury is a "body" that subsequently goes through "death and resurrection" (multiple times), each time receiving a more "glorious" body/life than it had before. This Philosophical Mercury is an insanely subtle "salt", as pertinently described by ICH, Cyliani, Zadkiel & Recreations, which is neither of "alkaline" nor of "nitrous" nature. And while is it completely "natural", it is also a "Natural Novelty". It is the "Moon" or "Luna" of the Sages. And when dissolved in "Our Spiritus", it is our "Virgin Milk", with which we "feed the Infant".

Most (if not all) Alchemists that I know (myself included) can reach a certain "plateau" at this stage, and it can be difficult to fully go beyond it. It is indeed a challenging roadblock to overcome, and a work in progress for me."

I could not agree more with the last part.
I feel like I understand the first "half" or something, but there is something about this process that I feel is unwritten or needs to come from within to pass a certain precipice.

It does not seem to matter which matter I work with, I am seeing parallels from experimentation and beginning to recognize them in various texts.

Anyways thanks again!
 

Andro

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A "body" that subsequently goes through "death and resurrection" (multiple times), each time receiving a more "glorious" body/life than it had before.
In the literature, this is sometimes referred to as "feeding/nourishing the infant", with "milk" (his own "Mother's Milk" or "Ph. Mercury"), and sometimes later with "meat" (basically his own "blood" from the previous "incarnation"), and in some texts it is also referred to as a "massacre of the innocents", i.e. "the infant must die so the adult can emerge".

This "nourishment" could be related to the known saying: "Milk for babes and meat for strong men".

These are all different stages of the same process.

A vegetable/metallic Tincture is relatively easy to render alchemically, when applying some of the keys.

But it is not necessarily always the same as a genuine "Philosophical Sulfur", that can be subsequently re-incrudated and multiplied in virtue. Not every "Red Tincture" is a Ph. Sulfur :)

I'm glad you find this useful, J.
 
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tAlc

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I think generally any dew alchemists mention if not all then probably most of the time is ''dew'' occurring in a closed flask... With the Prepared Starting Material(s). Outside or literal Dew might be capable of being used for something but... My understanding is that 90-98% of the time, the authors are referring to what is inside the Flask already, not matters outside of the flask.

There's sweat, moisture, waters in the Flask... The Alchemist are naming these occurrences under names as well...
 

Andro

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I'd suggest not to limit our Hermetic Vision through the filters of any specific path and/or matter we may be working on.

There are many suitable matters and many paths to work them.

"Dew" can refer to multiple materials and phenomena, such as the ones you mentioned, but also to plain & common dew, because it is literally loaded with "Aerial Niter". Rain Water and other "Waters" as well.
 

tAlc

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I'd suggest not to limit our Hermetic Vision through the filters of any specific path and/or matter we may be working on.

There are many suitable matters and many paths to work them.

"Dew" can refer to multiple materials and phenomena, such as the ones you mentioned, but also to plain & common dew, because it is literally loaded with "Aerial Niter". Rain Water and other "Waters" as well.

I still don't think I understand what people mean when they say there are many suitable matters and many paths, and than go on to say there is only One Thing.

Are you referring to the preparations and starting materials when you say there are many suitable matters and many paths to work them?

We don't copulate by sticking fingers into someone's ear. We have to ''copulate'' in accordance to our natural design and ''principals'' i.e sexual reproductive parts.

When I see people say that I start thinking stuff like: Cooking chicken wings in the fryer because the Cook thinks he can create the Elixir of Life if he burns it long enough as he is ''about to enter the Abyss'' lol

All in all, I've worked with Dew and Golden Water and unless you got some gigantic Dew machine, good luck spending 30 years just to fill a 500ml flask, good luck (not directing this to you Andro, I'm speaking just in general regarding Dew & Golden Water)
 

Andro

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I still don't think I understand what people mean when they say there are many suitable matters and many paths, and than go on to say there is only One Thing.

When/if you eventually reach this understanding, we can continue this conversation. Not before.
 

tAlc

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Assuming there is any supposed understanding to be had that is useful for the end goal.

I do wonder why Any Thing can't be used to create the One Thing since Any Thing is One Thing in different states. What I've learned from Napoleon Hill's book Outwitting the Devil, the very things that produce according to their kind only do so because of permanency of repetitive habitual patterns which in time crystallized and may be why there are several seeds producing ''different'' kinds of things and if it's possible to unravel these patterns, like my picture of Ariadne's Thread, perhaps we can turn anything into its original state

BUT

It's very much an unfinished idea that I put aside for awhile, it's the only possibility I see with this apparent mis-understanding I'm conceiving people to have regarding alchemy and the elixir.
 

Philosophical

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We don't copulate by sticking fingers into someone's ear. We have to ''copulate'' in accordance to our natural design and ''principals'' i.e sexual reproductive parts.

When I see people say that I start thinking stuff like: Cooking chicken wings in the fryer because the Cook thinks he can create the Elixir of Life if he burns it long enough as he is ''about to enter the Abyss'' lol

All in all, I've worked with Dew and Golden Water and unless you got some gigantic Dew machine, good luck spending 30 years just to fill a 500ml flask, good luck (not directing this to you Andro, I'm speaking just in general regarding Dew & Golden Water)

You made me chuckle here. Reproduction isnt restricted to humans, a great many things reproduce. So a great many matters can be used. Theres nothing about a chicken wing in an oven that expresses the principles underlying reproduction so while it has comedic value I think that the analogy vastly falls short of what exactly our matters need.
 

Andro

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All in all, I've worked with Dew and Golden Water and unless you got some gigantic Dew machine, good luck spending 30 years just to fill a 500ml flask, good luck (not directing this to you Andro, I'm speaking just in general regarding Dew & Golden Water)
First time I ever collected dew, many years ago, I filled a 250ml flask in just one night, with only two linen sheets. You have to do it in an adequate location and at the proper times.

Also, the potency of common dew can be vastly increased with certain techniques that are not explicitly written about anywhere, to the best of my knowledge.

The "Astral Spirit" that some Alchemical Authors talk about is essentially a "Dew on Steroids", basically an artful & concentrated corporification of the Aerial Niter, which is loaded with Secret Fire.

GW is a bit more "tricky" than Common Dew, because it doesn't readily contain enough of this "Aerial Niter", but by a "Philosophical Sublimation" (not with common distillation), this can also be remedied easily, and give us even greater quantities of this "Aerial Niter".

So a great many matters can be used.

Indeed. That's because all matter is "composed" of the same foundational principles, but varying in their proportions/mixtures and in their naturally inherent degrees of "purity" & "openness".

Various "waters" can work, such as some of the "waters" covered on this thread. Or various "earths". Or various metals/minerals.

If we cannot see the "Spark" in literally everything and everyone, how can we ever hope to alchemically unveil and reveal it?

Or even to preliminarily "see" where/in which matters it already shines brighter naturally, before we even start working it?

Even an expertly prepared "Spagyric" can theoretically serve as a "base" to be subsequently "raised" alchemically, because it has already undergone an initial basic separation, purification and recombination of principles.

When I see people say that I start thinking stuff like: Cooking chicken wings.
Even a "chicken wing" can be used to extract a Fixed Salt and possibly even an Oily "Sulfur" and a "Spirit". Wouldn't be my first choice though. Neither my second, third or 100th...

But even chicken soup or broth/stew, for that matter, is already a simple spagyric extraction of the Animal Kingdom.

The fixed "Chicken Sulfur" would then pass into the water, which we can unite with the salts from the calcined chicken bones and with any essential chicken oils that we may be able to obtain from it.

PS: If anyone thinks I'm joking about the "Chicken Spagyric", they're right.
And if anyone thinks I'm serious about the "Chicken Spagyric", they're also right.
 
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tAlc

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What I meant by spending 30 years with Dew, is spending 30 years using Dew... For the purpose of... (?) Because, with Dew and/or Golden Water in my experience it takes a long time.

250ml of dew vs 500-1000ml of golden water daily and after 6-7 months I BARELY filled my flask with what I wanted from my 6-7 months of preparations.
If you can collect that much dew that fast, then yeah perhaps my 30 years is a bit of a literal stretch, I'm trying to stress that it will be very long with Dew.

By the way, Andro and Philosophical say a great many matters can be used, Andro is saying chicken wings can be used... But... eventually from what I've seen, Golden Water and Dew ''Stops'' ''working''... And then you need to collect more... Otherwise, you could just arguably convert any literal matter into its exact equivalent and in the exact amount...

I haven't experienced 500ml golden water converting itself to 500ml of fixed salts. Eventually, whatever we need Golden Water and Dew for, it ''stops'' and becomes ''superfluous''.

I'm not rejecting Andro or Philsophical's viewpoints by the way in case anyone hasn't noticed. I even said that the notion of many matters and paths are an idea of mine that I've put aside for further speculation.
 

Philosophical

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What I meant by spending 30 years with Dew, is spending 30 years using Dew... For the purpose of... (?) Because, with Dew and/or Golden Water in my experience it takes a long time.

250ml of dew vs 500-1000ml of golden water daily and after 6-7 months I BARELY filled my flask with what I wanted from my 6-7 months of preparations.
If you can collect that much dew that fast, then yeah perhaps my 30 years is a bit of a literal stretch, I'm trying to stress that it will be very long with Dew.

By the way, Andro and Philosophical say a great many matters can be used, Andro is saying chicken wings can be used... But... eventually from what I've seen, Golden Water and Dew ''Stops'' ''working''... And then you need to collect more... Otherwise, you could just arguably convert any literal matter into its exact equivalent and in the exact amount...

I haven't experienced 500ml golden water converting itself to 500ml of fixed salts. Eventually, whatever we need Golden Water and Dew for, it ''stops'' and becomes ''superfluous''.

I'm not rejecting Andro or Philsophical's viewpoints by the way in case anyone hasn't noticed. I even said that the notion of many matters and paths are an idea of mine that I've put aside for further speculation.

We are in agreement, tA. Our various waters carry a certain charge/spirit/etc, it is not the waters themselves that are inherently useful. Once this charge or spirit is 'lost' we are left with 'empty water'. It is not all strictly chemistry. Maybe where debate re many or one matter ensues as one talks of what is lost where the other speaks as to where it goes when it is 'lost'.

Of course this is all my opinion and I humbly submit it as such, rather than a dogmatic truth. I welcome debate/rejection if it's done in good faith and constructively. I am not where I want to be yet so everything I say should be taken as such.