Heated Debate Over the Dew & Salt Method (philowar)

[horticult]

Everybody can see the revival of alchemical working with dew started by NDC.
It would be nice. Even Mutus Liber starts with these 3 "links" on dew: Gen 28: 11-12; Gen 27: 28-39; Dt 33: 18-28. And some other works also mentioned dew. But it is not easy /at least for me/ to align it with the ALL "common" statements of "all" classic authors/adepts.
Some are directly opposite - e.g. Aristeus. Could be adepts psyops...
Some are complaining of weather in France, some travelled to Mexico to be successful.
Some people are meaning that even the dew in famous Paracelsus Ens Melissae is not "common" dew.
Should be a heavenly dew, which is something ?completely different than "normal" dew?
As I myself wish to know, I started this topic, so be it not flamewar, but "philowar".
Let in the fire of the posts the errors burn and remains the Truth.

 

[kerkring]

As to the mutus liber, the dew work in it is to prepare a salt from dew that is used for the first part of the Dry Path. Although one french author who worked with the Philosophers of Nature wrote that the salt from dew was not of any use for this path...but he also wrote that it is possible to make a stone from this dew salt alone by isolating the three principles through a dry disitllation as in the acetate path.

As to NDC's sea salt and dew path, I found this take on the actum leyden letter in a book by a good contemporary french author:

If one remembers that the sea salt coming from "St. Uby" (imaginary location) which is alluded to by the author of the Golden Testament, the allusion for a hermeticist worthy of his name is clearly...Stibnite.

But how should we understand the notions of "sea salt" and "sulfur of antimony" but by the notion of antimony chloride or more exactly the butter of antimony.

In fact, this one, has a greasy appearence like butter, and issues forth from the distillation of a mixture of HCl and regulus of antimony or better still, stibnite, which contains the precious volatile and unstable red sulfur.

We know that when one hydrates the butter of antimony with just a few drops of water, a whitish substance forms immediately, which is called "powder of Algaroth."

As to contradictions and traps in the old texts, I read in book by a very good contemporary alchemist that he hadn't yet encountered a text where the original author had not left some things out or changed the order of the steps. But I'll make a bigger post about this later.

cheers,
k

 

[Dizardos]

Ask how many are a millionaire and you have your answer. Some do alchemical work for a reason that is different than health, wealth and everything that can be derived from that.

I will give an example. Ask people what they are and many will attribute a greatness to themselves that outshines Napoleon, while you would never hear anyone say that they are just a simple 'insert random uninteresting profession', even though it often is closer to the truth.

I have had an inside look for a long time of that which appears to be miraculous and amazing and it is not what it appears to be.

If following the herd was all that would be required, the entire world would be filled with alchemists. If there is a small herd that can be followed, then it is the herd of adepts, but most instead follow only a few sheep and become separated from the herd.

 

[Aleilius]

As to contradictions and traps in the old texts, I read in book by a very good contemporary alchemist that he hadn't yet encountered a text where the original author had not left some things out or changed the order of the steps. But I'll make a bigger post about this later.

It is rare to find texts which have not been meddled with in some way or another . Not only that, but many of the alchemists used cabbalistic locks to ensure the puffers and evil men would be unable to properly decrypt their work. Sometimes they refer to gold, but this gold is not vulgar gold. Likewise they refer to silver, but this silver is not vulgar silver. This is the case with dew, and also the water of the philosophers!

Ask how many are a millionaire and you have your answer.

I'm sure some of them would argue with you regarding this point!

If following the herd was all that would be required, the entire world would be filled with alchemists. If there is a small herd that can be followed, then it is the herd of adepts, but most instead follow only a few sheep and become separated from the herd.

I can understand why individuals would follow NDC. He rarely speaks in riddles and rarely conceals his words. Of course, is this the mark of an adept? Adepts almost always conceal their words carefully. Their words are always marked with double and even triple blinds.

Those beginning on the great path that is alchemy would inherently follow NDC and his open words. He offers light & hope to those weary travelers along the dark path, but alas this hope is only a false hope! The only true light to follow is the light of the Philosophers Star! By this light the lost traveler will find the true route to the Stone.

 

[Awani]

I can understand why individuals would follow NDC...

Only sheep follow...

 

[Dizardos]

I'm sure some of them would argue with you regarding this point!

Of course they will. They will say that a true alchemist will never reveal his abilities to protect himself.

For this reason I said: "I have had an inside look for a long time of that which appears to be miraculous and amazing and it is not what it appears to be."

My apologies for my cryptic words, but the truth is that most who study this art interpret everything literally and thus also miss the meaning of my words most of the time. This keeps me out of trouble. Not that I absolutely have a need for that, but I prefer to be part of many groups. I do not do that to gain a better understanding, but I suppose to get to know adepts and adepts to be which certainly will be important later on. Illumination is a seed that has a chance to sprout in every soil, although some nutritive soils improve its probability drastically.

What I cryptically meant with this is that I have seen the inner Sanctum of his Temple. I am one of the 23 members of the I-A-O group. I would not be lying if I said that I am probably the most unpopular member and not because I contribute the least of everyone, but simply because my perspective differs. This is not without repercussions for me, but it does not only have repercussions for me. I do not wish to take part in the battles that take place between the numerous alchemical groups. The alchemical wars that rage are bad enough without me joining the fray. There is so much to lose and so little to gain. Those who have little, try to convince everyone, while those who have everything hardly try to convince anyone.

I will tell you that the Magus who calls himself Merlin still has a job and despicable as he finds his job, he needs it to support himself.

Furthermore I hope that everyone takes note of the fact that a change of path would be most strange if a previous path were so successful and yet this is precisely what took place and will take place in the future too.

It would be tempting to remove me from the inner Sanctum for my words, but I believe that it would be worthwhile for them to keep me there for despite the slandering of another individual, I believe that I will get the answers from that individual that the administrator hoped he would have gotten. Despite his slanderous words, I believe he unconsciously knows there is more to it. It will nevertheless have to wait, since I do not have time or a special urgency for it. I patiently await my own results.

I can understand why individuals would follow NDC. He rarely speaks in riddles and rarely conceals his words. Of course, is this the mark of an adept? Adepts almost always conceal their words carefully. Their words are always marked with double and even triple blinds.

Those beginning on the great path that is alchemy would inherently follow NDC and his open words. He offers light & hope to those weary travelers along the dark path, but alas this hope is only a false hope! The only true light to follow is the light of the Philosophers Star! By this light the lost traveler will find the true route to the Stone.

Very true, Aleilius.

 

[Aleilius]

Hi Dizardos, thank you for revealing more about NDC and his group. If I were you I'd be very weary of revealing such information. NDC isn't the most patient person, and most likely you'll be booted from his group once word of this thread reaches him. Heck, we may even get a rise from the master himself!

I've had a chance to lurk around on his new public forum for a few days and I'm appalled by the disinformation being released. Now, I've been wrong on numerous occasions, but this is beyond my blunders!

From Lost Academy

What sets this forum apart from any other on the web is the fact we make the true Elixir of Life and real Philosopher's Stones, and we don't argue about theories and philosophies. If this is your first time seeing this information, then click here to download my short booklet on how to make the true Elixir. You can also buy a physical copy of the book by clicking here.

I'm not sure how NDC can make such sweeping statements! How did he come to the conclusion that this concoction of vulgar sea salt and vulgar dew is the true elixir of life and the "real" Philosopher's Stone? I'm sorry, but this is very misleading to beginners!

From Lost Academy

This booklet was made to provide instructions on the central secret to alchemy, which is morning dew. My other books that contain hundreds of photos will be posted on my website Alchemy-Illuminated.com

There is a central secret to the work of alchemy, and this central secret is indeed a water, but it is not vulgar dew! Gaining knowledge of this special water is central to understanding the true path to the Stone.

From Lost Academy

3. Do not post anything about transmutation of metals. A single gram of our stone of the 5th order is able to produce 16 billion dollars US in gold. And the stone can also be made from iridium and even rarer metals.

This is not true. Do not be mislead by such empty words.

From Lost Academy

The only kind of people allowed on this forum are the friendly kind; the more friendly the better. And if you show us your photo, then that's even better. This is a place of peace and happiness because we are enjoying the fruit of our labor, having searched so long for the true Elixir of Life. So if you are one of the people from another forum who loves to start arguments and debates, we don't want you here. Anyone who starts a fight here will be instantly deleted like magic.

This is particularly funny! From my experience NDC is the only one that likes to start arguments. He came to our forum slandering members and making empty claims. I'm sorry, but NDC has a superiority complex, and this is a warning to all those out there to stay away! Once you cross paths with NDC you'll realize that he's the wolf leading the sheep astray.

Some may think this post of mine is particularly of a negative nature, but I must disagree. I am only revealing the things that others are unable to say or are afraid of saying. It's quite possible that this thread will become a flame war, but I'm perfectly fine with such an outcome. The only flaming will come from NDC and his followers. I have no doubts that our members will continue to keep a cool head.

A charlatan (also called swindler) is a person practicing quackery or some similar confidence trick in order to obtain money, fame or other advantages via some form of pretence or deception.

 

[Dizardos]

A rockstar will always want to stand on stage and be the only standing there. It will cost you dearly if you decide to stand on the stage too. This is not a theory. I have seen it in practice more times than I can recount.

Considering my position I am not at the liberty to speak as openly as I would otherwise do. I can however say that I have been part of the inner Sanctum for a year and have witnessed practically everything that has taken place. The creation of the Lost Academy for example was originally the result of the clash between this forum and NDC. The theory behind it was that it would show who the real alchemists were, although few I-A-O members went along.

I could tell many entertaining tales, but this is not the time for it. Strange as it sounds I believe that NDC might have played an important role in my quick progress. I do not think that he is THE cause, but certainly one of the causes is not implausible. He could be one factor in the trinity of causes that got me to where I am, although I am not entirely sure since so many events took place in a comparatively short while.

Turba Philosophorum, as one of the oldest alchemical works, is very clear in its stance on dew and similar watery substances. The words to look for would be 'water of the clouds'.

Hi Dizardos, thank you for revealing more about NDC and his group. If I were you I'd be very weary of revealing such information. NDC isn't the most patient person, and most likely you'll be booted from his group once word of this thread reaches him. Heck, we may even get a rise from the master himself!

That could be true, but I doubt it since I am not the one who has the most to gain by staying there. I might share a glimpse of my own work if it all works out properly and I do believe that I am able to get a response from someone NDC respects (admitted or not) where everyone else so far has failed. Why? Because I will be able to present my own treatise (for highly select instances). There is no point in waiting in anticipation, because results are never truly certain and the slowest growing trees bear the best fruit. So, yes, it will all take time.

If I am banned despite this, then it will be permanent. I will not accept any re-invites later on.

 

[Aleilius]

A rockstar will always want to stand on stage and be the only standing there. It will cost you dearly if you decide to stand on the stage too. This is not a theory. I have seen it in practice more times than I can recount.

The larger you are, the harder you fall. If you're going to stand on stage then you better be damn sure you're right! However, I do not wish to take my stance on the stage. My only wish is to understand nature in whole. I do not wish for fame, money, or any of the other benefits of our art. My gold is knowledge and understanding. I seek peace and truth. My stage is the precipice of nature. I seek to overlook all that is good and beautiful.

Turba Philosophorum, as one of the oldest alchemical works, is very clear in its stance on dew and similar watery substances. The words to look for would be 'water of the clouds'.

Without this water our work is in vain.

 

[True Initiate]

Kerkring can you tell me the name of the book and which French author is that?

Dizardos thank you for your honesty.
I have a friends who are part of the lost academy and they really believe that dew+salt mixture will produce a stone.

NDC openly claims that he and everybody in his I.A.O. had produced the "philosophical mercury" and the dissolved the gold with it...Is that(at least) true?!
Or just another boosting?

 

[Awani]

Is that(at least) true?!
Or just another boosting?

A little bit of both... bravado and the Sacred Work doesn't go hand in hand in my opinion!



Edit:
Just for the record Alchemy Forums doesn't have anything against NDC and his crew, nor does Alchemy Forums encourage flame wars etc (if they should erupt)... a personal opinion is a personal opinion nothing more. Let's keep this thread related to the Work and not about NDC as a person!

 

[kerkring]

NDC openly claims that he and everybody in his I.A.O. had produced the "philosophical mercury" and the dissolved the gold with it...Is that(at least) true?!
Or just another boosting?

Through the (lead) acetate path it is possible to make a liquid that can dissolve (some) gold. See the Acetate Path Research papers from the Philosophers of Nature for this. IIRC NDC has also experimented with the acetate path, so he has probably achieved this also.

The "mercury" you get from this path is very different chemically (organic) from the dew water and salt mixture (inorganic) that is being experimented with on the lost-academy forum though. And I have not tried to replicate this path (dew and salt) so I can't say if it is real or not.

 

[kerkring]

Kerkring can you tell me the name of the book and which French author is that?

It is from 'Pratique de l'Oeuvre Alchimique Végétale et Métallique' by Patrick Rivière. There are no real recipes in this book though. He gives the golden testament and then some comments and small excerpts from other texts, in the section devoted to it. I'll try to translate it (not the leyden letter itself though) soon.

 

[horticult]

Is 'water of the clouds' and 'heavenly dew' exactly the same?

 

[Dizardos]

Dizardos thank you for your honesty.
I have a friends who are part of the lost academy and they really believe that dew+salt mixture will produce a stone.

NDC openly claims that he and everybody in his I.A.O. had produced the "philosophical mercury" and the dissolved the gold with it...Is that(at least) true?!
Or just another boosting?

It depends how you would look at it. Dissolving gold is not difficult and can be done in a myriad of ways. Aqua regia and by means of acetate derivatives for example, but does that make it the 'philosophical mercury'?. I never talked about dissolving gold. The word 'philosophical' denotes that chemists do not have it and have no understanding of its creation. As far as I am concerned chemists can dissolve gold just as easily if not better via the above mentioned methods.

I would not consider myself to have created the philosophical mercury. There are those who boast to have created gold, but I am not one of them. The main difference lies in what is seen. I have great pictures of that which appears to be gold, but that does not make it so. There are those who claim much, but I fear that their intelligence might lead to their death. One member might have credibility with multiple small scale transmutations. I would nevertheless consider that a transmutation via particulars as already talked about by Hephaelios if true.

There are no millionaires there.

Tell your friends to be 'discrete' with the information I provided.

 

[True Initiate]

They will be discrete, don't worry.

Are you talking about the "lead golden"?

I heard that from Rubellus and he says it is a complete bulls'*t,but i never saw a pictures from it.

 

[Dizardos]

Is 'water of the clouds' and 'heavenly dew' exactly the same?

Why would dew be so different from rain water? Both 'condense', but in a different quantity and from a different position. I use the word 'dew' instead of 'heavenly dew' since the last could denote a substance that has little in common with ordinary water.

 

[Dizardos]

They will be discrete, don't worry.

Are you talking about the "lead golden"?

I heard that from Rubellus and he says it is a complete bulls'*t,but i never saw a pictures from it.

Yes, lead and tin mostly. Both can easily gain the appearance of gold.

 

[True Initiate]

Maybe the difference is that the dew only receives the light from the moon in contrary to rain.

 

[Dizardos]

To test a theory, see if it corresponds with every sentence below. Correspondence with only a part is not good enough for the Emerald Tablet consists of only a few sentences.
_________________________________________________________________

THE EMERALD TABLET

(Translation by Adept Fulcanelli, as quoted in "Alchemists and Gold" by Jaques Sadoul )

This is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth:- As below, so above; and as above, so below. With this knowledge alone you may work miracles. And since all things exist in and emanate from the ONE Who is the ultimate Cause, so all things are born after their kind from this ONE.

The Sun is the father, the Moon the mother; the wind carried it in his belly. Earth is its nurse and its guardian. It is the Father of all things, eternal Will is contained in it. Here, on earth, its strength, its power, remain one and undivided. Earth must be separated from fire, the subtle from the dense, gently, with unremitting care. It arises from the earth and descends from heaven; it gathers to itself the strength of things above and things below. By means of this one thing all the glory of the world shall be yours, and all obscurity flee from you.

It is power, strong with the strength of all power, for it will penetrate all mysteries and dispel all ignorance. By it the world was created. From it are born manifold wonders, the means to achieving which are here given.

It is for this reason that I am called Hermes Trismegistus; for I possess the three essentials of the philosophy of the universe.

This is the sum total of the work of the Sun.
_________________________________________________________________

The simple truth is that science does not know all forms of energy that exist. They have missed the most important one.

 

[True Initiate]

Ahh, yes you are right.
It seems even that the rain is better(much more powerfull) than dew in this respect...

Yes, only the rain corresponds with these descriptions to the full extent.

 

[horticult]

Why would dew be so different from rain water? Both 'condense', but in a different quantity and from a different position. I use the word 'dew' instead of 'heavenly dew' since the last could denote a substance that has little in common with ordinary water.

Yes, that was intented by my question. I suppose that 'water of the clouds' and 'heavenly dew' "has little in common with ordinary water", and my question is: Are these 2 equal?

 

[Green Lion]

Hi kerkring

It is from 'Pratique de l'Oeuvre Alchimique Végétale et Métallique' by Patrick Rivière. There are no real recipes in this book though. He gives the golden testament and then some comments and small excerpts from other texts, in the section devoted to it. I'll try to translate it (not the leyden letter itself though) soon.

Be careful what Patrick River said.
I know the character and he is a bit like NDC ...
This is a person who has worked hard.
He well knows the spagyria.
But he has not the Philosopher's stone, yet tries to make believe ...

 

[True Initiate]

I don't know much about Patrick River but i found out that on the original Actum Leyden letter from British Library there are two important marginal notes on the second page of the document. The first uses symbols and translates either as "This salt is earth" or "This salt is antimony". The second note also uses symbols (and I think is the more important of the two) which when translated reads "This dew is Nitre".

Which in correspondance with kerking and Patrick River could be the case.

 

[Green Lion]

The notes were written by Sigismund Bacstrom.
He had interpreted a lot of texts with the focus on antimony.
But this is not the same path that Patrick Rivière's path.
And even if I like Bacstrom, he had seen the antimony where there is no antimony in certain texts.