Green Lion Devouring the Sun

[Florius Frammel]

Hollandus tells to do this with FeSO4 that got rid of it's chrystal water, a stopper and at lower heat over days. That way interesting colors can be seen: Green, white, yellow and red.

 

[JDP]

Hollandus tells to do this with FeSO4 that got rid of it's chrystal water, a stopper and at lower heat over days. That way interesting colors can be seen: Green, white, yellow and red.

Unfortunately, what he describes after that does not happen if you attempt to do it with actual iron vitriol, at least by itself or with common vinegar. Weidenfeld explains that the "trick" here is that the metallic vitriols are dissolved in the secret solvent (the "vinegar" in question) and then they can yield the results described by such writers. The author of the "Triumphal Chariot of Vitriol" says the same thing.

 

[Florius Frammel]

Unfortunately, what he describes after that does not happen if you attempt to do it with actual iron vitriol, at least by itself or with common vinegar. Weidenfeld explains that the "trick" here is that the metallic vitriols are dissolved in the secret solvent (the "vinegar" in question) and then they can yield the results described by such writers. The author of the "Triumphal Chariot of Vitriol" says the same thing.

Note also that there is one important color missing.

 

[JDP]

Note also that there is one important color missing.

Another thing: as Weidenfeld points out, it is also quite impossible to carry out this "calcination" of iron vitriol in a sealed flask (indeed, as the decomposition of this salt would give off gases that would eventually burst the glass flask; just look at your video and try to do that in a sealed glass container! I wonder how many poor unsuspecting saps who tried to follow Hollandus' malicious mutilated misleading "recipe" had the sealed heated flasks explode in their faces?), and even if you could pull it off, it would still be useless since the only thing that vitriols purified/crystallized by common water ever give is just the common spirit/oil of vitriol (i.e. sulfuric acid.) Once again, pretty much the same thing is pointed out by the anonymous author of "The Triumphal Chariot of Vitriol". The previous treatment of metallic vitriols by means of the secret solvent is clearly stated as being the key for this type of alchemical processes.

 

[Florius Frammel]

It ain't necessarily so.
If you do this without the crystal water, at a very low temperature (40°C) over a longer period of time ~14 days, it should work even with a stopper without danger.

Source: Daniel Hornfisher - Löwe und Phönix

 

[elixirmixer]

Interesting discussion. ..

 

[Florius Frammel]

Interesting discussion. ..

You may also find interesting (not only) here the following quote from the very first book on alchemy in german language (Das Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit - Book of the holy trinity from 1419):

"Know, that this is the best method to prepare the stone of the wise: Press stones into the dung. The stones get a much more persistent and flowing power, much more gentle and clear, compared to a drying with fire(...)If any stone would lie in the dung a whole year long, it would be full of persistent power."

 

[JDP]

It ain't necessarily so.
If you do this without the crystal water, at a very low temperature (40°C) over a longer period of time ~14 days, it should work even with a stopper without danger.

Source: Daniel Hornfisher - Löwe und Phönix

I seriously doubt that Hornfisher has ever bothered to try such a thing. Iron vitriol does not redden at such low temperatures. It only reddens when it decomposes, and such decomposition emits volatile gases. There is no way of carrying this out in a sealed flask. It will shatter to pieces as the gases do not have enough room to expand and/or condense.

"The first is concerning the choice of Vitriol, which Reason requires as well as the antecedent Receipt to be graduated, that is, dissolved either in the Spirit of Philosophical Wine, or Philosophical Vinegar, and Cristallized, for the Calcination of common Vitriol, dissolved in common Water, and purified, in a close Vessel to a most red colour, is altogether Impossible, and of no Efficacy neither; for nothing but the common Acid or common Spirit of Vitriol is extracted out of common Vitriol, be it never so well purified and calcined: Vitriol therefore, well Purged in common Water, is to be chosen according to the present Receipt, but after that, according to the antecedent well dissolved in Philosophical Vinegar, that it may be thereby made graduated Vitriol, and the fit Matter of this Menstruum."

Source: Weidenfeld - "Concerning the Secrets of the Adepts"

 

[Florius Frammel]

I seriously doubt that Hornfisher has ever bothered to try such a thing. Iron vitriol does not redden at such low temperatures. It only reddens when it decomposes, and such decomposition emits volatile gases. There is no way of carrying this out in a sealed flask. It will shatter to pieces as the gases do not have enough room to expand and/or condense.

"The first is concerning the choice of Vitriol, which Reason requires as well as the antecedent Receipt to be graduated, that is, dissolved either in the Spirit of Philosophical Wine, or Philosophical Vinegar, and Cristallized, for the Calcination of common Vitriol, dissolved in common Water, and purified, in a close Vessel to a most red colour, is altogether Impossible, and of no Efficacy neither; for nothing but the common Acid or common Spirit of Vitriol is extracted out of common Vitriol, be it never so well purified and calcined: Vitriol therefore, well Purged in common Water, is to be chosen according to the present Receipt, but after that, according to the antecedent well dissolved in Philosophical Vinegar, that it may be thereby made graduated Vitriol, and the fit Matter of this Menstruum."

Source: Weidenfeld - "Concerning the Secrets of the Adepts"

Well I must confess I only did the quick, hot and dirty method too. But we'll only find out if it works if we do it on our own I guess (If we want to). I can't see where Weidenfeld writes that he tried the low temp method too. It would at least not be dangerous if one keeps the temperature constantly low enough.

BTW, Long time reactions in general are not well researched and very unpopular to perform these days. As you know Time = $.

Hornfisher seriously suggests to add radish juice to the white Iron sulphate to get it into putrefaction (the color that's missing -see previous post above). Because according to the Golden Chain of Homer, if something won't putrefy you should go to the animal and plant kingdom (those matters putrefy more easily than minerals and metals).
To his defense I must say that Hornfisher doesn't claim that this is the great work. He only hints that this procedure "has something to do" with the great work.

 

[JDP]

Well I must confess I only did the quick, hot and dirty method too. But we'll only find out if it works if we do it on our own I guess (If we want to). I can't see where Weidenfeld writes that he tried the low temp method too. It would at least not be dangerous if one keeps the temperature constantly low enough.

BTW, Long time reactions in general are not well researched and very unpopular to perform these days. As you know Time = $.

Hornfisher seriously suggests to add radish juice to the white Iron sulphate to get it into putrefaction (the color that's missing -see previous post above). Because according to the Golden Chain of Homer, if something won't putrefy you should go to the animal and plant kingdom (those matters putrefy more easily than minerals and metals).
To his defense I must say that Hornfisher doesn't claim that this is the great work. He only hints that this procedure "has something to do" with the great work.

Weidenfeld's comments come right after he quotes the two processes with reddened vitriol in Hollandus' "Mineral Work". He is plainly saying that such an operation is impossible as written (i.e. with common vitriol purified & crystallized in common water, as the "recipes" describe. It just will not happen, and even if you could pull it off, it would still be useless as nothing other than spirit/oil of vitriol will come out of such operations and not what the author describes. The anonymous author of "The Triumphal Chariot of Vitriol" also says the same when talking about the distillation of common vitriols without previous treatment with the secret solvent: nothing but oil of vitriol is produced.)

 

[elixirmixer]

Its very frustrating not being able to understand what materials people are refering to when it comes to these types of conversations.

I have heard at least 5 different interpretations of 'The Green Lion'

1. Mineralized Gold made from Royal Water and Tartar per Delinquent.

2. Iron Pyrite boiled in vinegar at low temperature.

3. The by-product of many rectifications of Philosophical Mercury.

4. Some stinking bio-mass created from vegetables.

5. ........ okay maybe only 4.... but stilll.... would anyone like to add some clarification as to which path is being discussed right now? Please?

 

[black]

The word "Mercury" can be used at several different points of it's evolution in the work.

Perhaps the term "Green Lion" may also be used in a similar way.

Also some writers have suggested the Green for it's color or in reference to it's
lack of Maturity...... as with green fruit being not ripe yet.

 

[Florius Frammel]

Its very frustrating not being able to understand what materials people are refering to when it comes to these types of conversations.

I have heard at least 5 different interpretations of 'The Green Lion'

1. Mineralized Gold made from Royal Water and Tartar per Delinquent.

2. Iron Pyrite boiled in vinegar at low temperature.

3. The by-product of many rectifications of Philosophical Mercury.

4. Some stinking bio-mass created from vegetables.

5. ........ okay maybe only 4.... but stilll.... would anyone like to add some clarification as to which path is being discussed right now? Please?

Here it is FeSO4*7H2O (Iron Sulphate with crystal water). Nowadays you can conveniently buy it from a store and is produced when dissolving iron in sulfuric acid.

Like black says it's green and can be ripened with more or less fire to maturity (red).

It is also a product of the decay of pyrites and marcasites (Iron Sulfide ores). All of the 13 secret letters deal with these kinds of operations. And these come from the golden R&C guys.

 

[JDP]

Like black says it's green and can be ripened with more or less fire to maturity (red).

Once again, this is impossible. No such thing will happen when using iron vitriol purified & crystallized with common water. You can "redden" the vitriol by relatively strong fires, but it's just a decomposition of this salt. You are in fact preparing ferric oxide by doing this (while the volatile sulfur compounds are given off. If condensed, they become sulfuric acid.)

It is also a product of the decay of pyrites and marcasites (Iron Sulfide ores). All of the 13 secret letters deal with these kinds of operations. And these come from the golden R&C guys.

Yes, and they are all misleading as hell. Manipulating pyrites/marcasites alone, by themselves, exposing them to the air as much as you want, only produces common vitriols, nothing else. This is in fact how artificial metallic vitriols were prepared in older times, before sulfuric acid was prepared on a larger scale. It was cheaper and simpler to just take pyrites/marcasites and break them up in small pieces or coarsely grind them, then pile them up exposed to the atmosphere for several months, every now and then "stirring" them to expose more surface area to the action of the atmosphere. Then you leached them with water and got the soluble metallic vitriols that were formed due to the gradual oxidation of these metallic sulfides. There is nothing "secret" or "special" about any of this. The only thing that results are common vitriols, which when distilled yield sulfuric acid, nothing else.

 

[Florius Frammel]

Once again, this is impossible. No such thing will happen when using iron vitriol purified & crystallized with common water. You can "redden" the vitriol by relatively strong fires, but it's just a decomposition of this salt. You are in fact preparing ferric oxide by doing this (while the volatile sulfur compounds are given off. If condensed, they become sulfuric acid.)

And what was wrong with my post? What you describe is what I had in mind when suggesting the use of "more fire".
Neither you, Weidenfeld, nor I did the slow process with white Iron Sulfate. Or do you want to use or proof a chemical theory here to predict the result of an experiment you haven't done yourself? I thought you were the one rejecting theories and relying on practical experience only.

Yes, and they are all misleading as hell. Manipulating pyrites/marcasites alone, by themselves, exposing them to the air as much as you want, only produces common vitriols, nothing else. This is in fact how artificial metallic vitriols were prepared in older times, before sulfuric acid was prepared on a larger scale. It was cheaper and simpler to just take pyrites/marcasites and break them up in small pieces or coarsely grind them, then pile them up exposed to the atmosphere for several months, every now and then "stirring" them to expose more surface area to the action of the atmosphere. Then you leached them with water and got the soluble metallic vitriols that were formed due to the gradual oxidation of these metallic sulfides. There is nothing "secret" or "special" about any of this. The only thing that results are common vitriols, which when distilled yield sulfuric acid, nothing else.

Yes, it seems that this was common practice and done a lot of times. An interesting question is whether the authors of the 13 secret letters, including Federico Gualdi knew this. Even Johann Kunckel had high hopes to find the secret fire in or with Iron Sulfate.

 

[JDP]

And what was wrong with my post? What you describe is what I had in mind when suggesting the use of "more fire".
Neither you, Weidenfeld, nor I did the slow process with white Iron Sulfate. Or do you want to use or proof a chemical theory here to predict the result of an experiment you haven't done yourself? I thought you were the one rejecting theories and relying on practical experience only.

How do you know Weidenfeld didn't try it? He seems very convinced that it is impossible to do such a thing. And he wasn't relying on any modern "theories" for this statement. Empirical experience with these salts will tell you how they behave with heat. No reliable source that I know of has ever seen iron vitriol redden at such low temperatures. It is a stable salt that requires stronger heats to decompose.

Yes, it seems that this was common practice and done a lot of times. An interesting question is whether the authors of the 13 secret letters, including Federico Gualdi knew this. Even Johann Kunckel had high hopes to find the secret fire in or with Iron Sulfate.

Heck, even Clinge used this ruse! But you can tell he was being vague, misleading and providing mutilated information in this part since the things he says in other parts of his works do not fit with such a simplistic and common procedure as the "weathering" of pyrites/marcasites. There's no way of getting the results he describes with such common and well-known procedures.

 

[elixirmixer]

It ain't necessarily so.
If you do this without the crystal water, at a very low temperature (40°C) over a longer period of time ~14 days, it should work even with a stopper without danger.

Source: Daniel Hornfisher - Löwe und Phönix

what do you mean "crystal water"?

And thank you FF for clearly explaining what your talking about.

 

[JDP]

what do you mean "crystal water"?

And thank you FF for clearly explaining what your talking about.

He means the water of crystallization of the salt. It is incorporated into the salt when it is crystallized, but it can be gotten rid of by heating it until the salt remains anhydrous.

 

[Florius Frammel]

He means the water of crystallization of the salt. It is incorporated into the salt when it is crystallized, but it can be gotten rid of by heating it until the salt remains anhydrous.

That's right.
Thus some salts seem to have very low melting points and some even have more than one stable state with incorporated water. Each time when (slowly) heating more, it solves in it's own crystal water and coagulates again.

 

[JDP]

That's right.
Thus some salts seem to have very low melting points and some even have more than one stable state with incorporated water. Each time when (slowly) heating more, it solves in it's own crystal water and coagulates again.

In the case of iron vitriol, though, the only change is the loss of this crystallization water, the salt itself remains the same at such lower temperatures.

 

[elixirmixer]

These waters of crystalization should not be over-looked.
I distilled some rain water and waters of crystalization out from some desert roses (gypsum) simultaneously; the distilled water is not at all like regular water. It has a very strange smell to it; a bit metallic, and it also glows cyan under blacklight when both tap water and distilled water are completely transparent under blacklight.

I re-distilled the water; and it maintained its cyan colouring.

 

[JDP]

These waters of crystalization should not be over-looked.
I distilled some rain water and waters of crystalization out from some desert roses (gypsum) simultaneously; the distilled water is not at all like regular water. It has a very strange smell to it; a bit metallic, and it also glows cyan under blacklight when both tap water and distilled water are completely transparent under blacklight.

I re-distilled the water; and it maintained its cyan colouring.

No big deal. They might be contaminated with volatile compounds of sulfur, for example, from the underground places they crystallized in. Nothing "weird" or "unusual".

 

[elixirmixer]

hmmmm i have a piece of natural sulfur here; i will view it under black-light......

* 2 mins later *

Hmm strangely enough it has not luminescence. Not to say that other sulfur compounds wouldn't. The black light thing really interests me....

Have you worked with the whole Iron Pyrite thing JDP?

 

[JDP]

hmmmm i have a piece of natural sulfur here; i will view it under black-light......

* 2 mins later *

Hmm strangely enough it has not luminescence. Not to say that other sulfur compounds wouldn't. The black light thing really interests me....

Have you worked with the whole Iron Pyrite thing JDP?

I was referring to the different smell/taste. Nothing weird. The "black light" thing might be due to who knows what impurities.

What do you mean by "whole iron pyrite"? Is there any such thing as "incomplete iron pyrite"???

 

[Florius Frammel]

hmmmm i have a piece of natural sulfur here; i will view it under black-light......

* 2 mins later *

Hmm strangely enough it has not luminescence. Not to say that other sulfur compounds wouldn't. The black light thing really interests me....

Have you worked with the whole Iron Pyrite thing JDP?

The phenomena is called fluorescence. It works with Tonic Water as well (contains Chinin). There seem to be some interesting impurities in the australian desert.