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Golden Dawn Order Oath Implications

W

Wildfire

Hello my fellow alchemists. This is a sensitive matter to post about and please it is not my goal to deprive this group or any of you of knowledge, but lately I was accepted into the hermetic order of the golden dawn and they made me sign and swear an oath before the almighty God of the Universe that I would never divulge any secret or teachings from the order to others. I find it weird that I cannot share it with you guys, as I consider this group to be a family to me. But alas I swore an oath. What I can do on the other hand though is divulge information that I've managed to gather outside the order and whatever I have learned before I joined the order as well. There's no penalty against that. All I ask is that you understand where I am coming from with this information and that I'll always share whatever I can with you. I am a firm believer that this information is for the common good of mankind here on Earth. Thank you
 

Kiorionis

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That’s cool that you were accepted into an Order. Maybe they have a sweet library ;)

Something to keep in mind though: To Know, to Dare, to Will, and to keep Silent.
I’m sure you’ve heard of it before. In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with keeping secrets, and a lot can be gained from keeping silent.
 

Andro

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I was accepted into the hermetic order of the golden dawn
Is this the non-profit that's incorporated in Florida, a.k.a. "The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc."?
 
W

Wildfire

hmm... i know that there are a lot of golden dawn orders and I'm not sure exactly which one it is. I know that the imperator is somewhere in California. He told me that an old golden dawn order just rejoined this one.
 
W

Wildfire

Higher magickal knowledge and abilities, knowledge of the workings of the universe, being one with the source (All), advanced alchemy, achieve mastery of life.
 

Schmuldvich

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Higher magickal knowledge and abilities, knowledge of the workings of the universe, being one with the source (All), advanced alchemy, achieve mastery of life.

Interesting. Those are all very noble pursuits.

I've never been to a lodge, have no interest in societies, detest socializing, and know that is not the path for me, but I wish you the best!

These people that you now fraternize with, I assume you have met in person? Or is this all done via the internet?

It can be safely assume much will be learned about Hermetics, but has anyone in your order presented a sound understanding of Alchemy or shown in any way that they have keys to our Art that you do not?
 
W

Wildfire

I've been a lone practitioner for nearly 10 years now and there's much to know in alchemy and occult sciences that I lack and know that only a teacher of sorts can give me proper guidance. Initiation is also a big thing in occultism and if you've never been initiated your occult life can be difficult to produce results to say the least self initiation is poor at best (no offence meant to those who did it themselves as I also did in the past). That being said my first initiation will be astral and not in person, but the subsequent ones must all be in person and I need to travel to attend them, but aside from the initiations everything is done online. Another very important point is if you run into occult trouble by doing something stupid. I guess we've all been there at least once and if not yet it'll come. With the guidance of a teacher an occult practice doesn't have to be dangerous Eg. Enochian magick, planetary magick,etc. They keep their knowledge confined to the grades so that we are not tempted to skip the grade material and the imperator also told me that it is by skipping material that people tend to get into trouble. But from my own research I have learned that the golden dawn as well as AMORC and some masonic lodges that practice alchemy all have the secret to the red lion and the white eagle along with everything in between that you can think of. One thing I can guarantee for sure. The curriculum is heavy and it is open for anyone to see what it does entail as far as learning and practice goes. I suppose that one can do everything by himself (since all the lectures and exercises are listed openly online with the exception of alchemical ones), but without the initiation it is an empty course of action.
 
W

Wildfire

I have only met the imperator through video chat. Later I should be able to meet the other members of the order.
 

zoas23

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I've been a lone practitioner for nearly 10 years now and there's much to know in alchemy and occult sciences that I lack and know that only a teacher of sorts can give me proper guidance. Initiation is also a big thing in occultism and if you've never been initiated your occult life can be difficult to produce results to say the least self initiation is poor at best (no offence meant to those who did it themselves as I also did in the past). That being said my first initiation will be astral and not in person,

I am no longer involved with the G.D., though I have been involved with it for a bit more than 2 decades (I left because of personal reasons, unrelated to the G.D. itself).
I was the Praemostrator when I left (i.e, something close to a general director of studies).

There are several Orders using the name "Golden Dawn" nowadays, though most of them are identical (there's one in the USA that is considered a joke by everyone else though).

There's no such thing as "astral initiations" in the Golden Dawn.
If you were told you were going to receive an "astral initiation", consider yourself deceived... It's simply something that does not exist in that context (in the same way that I would be able to tell you that I am sending you an astral sandwich and I was asking you to eat it and tell me how it tastes).

Anyway... if you were told that you are going to have an "astral initiation", I strongly advice you to show them the middle finger, because you have been cheated (search for any other real GD if you want; the one you have found can only be considered a joke... an astral joke).

but the subsequent ones must all be in person and I need to travel to attend them,

I strongly advice you to ignore the idiots who told you that you are going to have an "astral initiation"... It simply does not exist in the GD context.
It would be equivalent to a person stating that he is Catholic because a certain priest baptized him astrally... Any fool knows that a baptism takes place in a Church, that the water in that ceremony is regular water, but not "astral water" and that the Catholic Church does not "astrally baptize" people, nor they do it by skype.

But from my own research I have learned that the golden dawn as well as AMORC and some masonic lodges that practice alchemy all have the secret to the red lion and the white eagle along with everything in between that you can think of.

Which is not the case.
There is no alchemy in the Golden Dawn. Nor there's any secret about any red lion or white eagle there, simply because there's zero alchemy (i.e, if you ever purchased a book about alchemy and the chapter one taught you how to make a version of a Melissa tincture by mixing some essential oil, alcohol and potash... and you've done such thing, then you already have gone further than the Golden Dawn into the realm of alchemy).

One thing I can guarantee for sure. The curriculum is heavy and it is open for anyone to see what it does entail as far as learning and practice goes. I suppose that one can do everything by himself (since all the lectures and exercises are listed openly online with the exception of alchemical ones), but without the initiation it is an empty course of action.

There are no alchemical lessons in the context of the Golden Dawn.
If that's what you are looking for there, then you are wasting your time. ***
Other areas can be interesting though.
Anyway... if you were told that you were going to receive an astral initiation... consider yourself deceived and consider doing yourself a favour and find a real GD instead of that weird joke (again, there are no astral initiations, nor any protocol for astral initiations, in the GD... in the same way that a Catholic Priest would not know how to perform an astral baptism, simply because there's no such thing as "astral baptism" in the Catholic Church).

*** No need to trust my word, even if I am telling you the truth. Though if you were told that there's an alchemical lesson there, ask if it's a wet path or a dry path... and if it's based on Antimony or Cinnabar or some sort of Universal Substance or what....
I assume the person who answers you would make at least very weird faces... because there are no alchemical lessons actually, thus there isn't a wet or dry path, nor anything related to Antimony or Cinnabar or ANYTHING (when it comes to alchemy).
 
W

Wildfire

wow that's deep. But before I accept or discard anything I need to clear the doubts in my mind. The initiation will be in England on Sept 28 they're from the het-heret temple FOGD. I was told that they have some world class alchemists in their midst. Well... can I get anything of value out of them or is it all rubbish?
 

zoas23

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wow that's deep. But before I accept or discard anything I need to clear the doubts in my mind. The initiation will be in England on Sept 28 they're from the het-heret temple FOGD. I was told that they have some world class alchemists in their midst. Well... can I get anything of value out of them or is it all rubbish?

I don't really know the FOGD. The GD exists nowadays as a lot of independent Orders, though with a friendly relationship between them (except for a crazy temple in the USA, though it's not the FOGD).

The GD has a lot of worthy things to offer and I would say that Astrology and Qabalah are two of the strongest areas.
An alchemical SYMBOLISM is used... but this fact does not mean that there is any kind of Lab practice (there isn't any kind of Lab practice, nor any "lessons" about any lab practice, not even a lesson about how to distill water... literally nothing)

Surely it has a lot to offer, though not something about alchemy (thus is your specific interest is alchemy, I can guarantee you that you are wasting your time there... If you are interested in Astrology or Qabalah, then it's quite good).

If you are told that there are "alchemical lessons", just ask if they are related to a Dry Path or a Wet Path... or if it's a path that uses Cinnabar or Antimony or Water or What. The person who is talking to you will have to admit that in the best case you will be taught about Symbolism (i.e, not much more than ideas such as: "Aries is the Sulphur of fire, Leo is the Salt of fire, Sagitarius is the Mercury of Fire....Cancer is the Sulphur of Water, Scorpio is the Salt of Water, Pisces is the Mercury of Water... etc). In short: there aren't any lessons that have any relation with a Lab practice... There isn't even a specific path that is allegedly taught.

If you have been told that you were going to receive an "astral initiation", that's not even open to debate: there are no astral initiations in the GD (in the same way that the Catholic Church does not celebrate astral baptisms, astral confirmations or astral weddings... Thus a Catholic priest would not even know which protocol he has to follow to celebrate a catholic astral wedding).
I can't advice anyone to join a GD that is giving them... It's somehow like giving the advice of joining a vegetarian club that offers to receive you by giving you a free Big Mac... It does not make a lot of sense.

If you are interested in the GD, try to find one that doesn't give astral initiations (and distrust the tales of "very powerful" persons who can do I-don't-know-what... It's a very intellectual organization and you probably want a persons who studied a lot, rather than freaks who believe they can fly -because they can't fly, but they are expected to have read a lot).

Other than that, I suggest you to find a GD that actually works in a physical way near your area. It is certainly NOT something that was designed to exist online... and whilst it's not impossible to make an "online version", it would be VERY deficient (in the same way that an academy for Dentists maybe can exist online, but I would somehow feel sorry for the patients of those dentists who studied their craft online).
 

Andro

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Though if you were told that there's an alchemical lesson there, ask if it's a wet path or a dry path... and if it's based on Antimony or Cinnabar or some sort of Universal Substance or what... I assume the person who answers you would make at least very weird faces... because there are no alchemical lessons actually, thus there isn't a wet or dry path, nor anything related to Antimony or Cinnabar or ANYTHING (when it comes to alchemy).

If you are told that there are "alchemical lessons", just ask if they are related to a Dry Path or a Wet Path... or if it's a path that uses Cinnabar or Antimony or Water or What.

Got a (seemingly recent?) thing with Wet/Dry, Antimony and Cinnabar (and What), ey?

:cool:
 

zoas23

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Got a (seemingly recent?) thing with Wet/Dry, Antimony and Cinnabar (and What), ey?

:cool:

Shhh.... Because of my oaths, I can only inform you about these things astrally or through skype!

Meanwhile:

laura_sm.png


(not sure if you like Twin Peaks, if you do, the image above is somehow funny... ).

Anyway... these questions are actually good when something looks so mysterious.... If an organization claims to teach alchemy, then these questions should have an answer (if not, they won't make sense in that context).
 

Andro

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I can only inform you about these things astrally or through skype!
It's OK, I can do either/both :cool:

Maybe I should rent a mansion on a hill and start my own goddam order :p

And you can be my Praemostrator!
 

zoas23

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It's OK, I can do either/both :cool:

Maybe I should rent a mansion on a hill and start my own goddam order :p

And you can be my Praemostrator!

Surely... !
The first thing we need is a secret handshake (no, a normal one does not work.. So we'll twist the fingers a little bit).
Then a word to say during the handshake (a simple "hello" won't work either).
Then a second way of greeting that does not need a handshake (some sort of gesture, though not as simple as waving the hand)
Finally, some sort of interpretation of these three things with some philosophical justification.
And we have extra points if we claim that this is the combo of handshake + secret word + greeting that was used by... I don't know how far we want to go: Saint Germain? The REAL Rosicrucians? King Solomon? Adam and Eve? All of them?

We also get extra points if we claim that this salutation combo is protected by... Jehovah? Osiris? Humphrey Bogart? Odin?

Anyway, it's not too hard!

Thanks for the sarcasm too :|

I think it's important to take things lightly... Otherwise we get confused and we end up believing that some things are more serious than they should be.
 

Kiorionis

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In case the handshake/secret words thing doesn’t work out;

images
 

Andro

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Thanks for the sarcasm too :|
Hey, don't take it too seriously :)

I personally don't do orders of any kind, and zeus23 has been in a few of them, I think...

If anything, such comments can offer a bit of perspective...

But in the end, you must do what you feel you must do, regardless of what anyone else says :)
 
W

Wildfire

Like I said the only reason as to why is because I feel that there's knowledge lacking. If they can't offer alchemical knowledge then so be it. But I feel that there's something of great value to be gained from it. Especially if conversing with our holy guardian angel can lead to greater things here on Earth as well as the spirit world.
 
W

Wildfire

Zoas you've been in the golden dawn and went quite far. If I may ask how hard was it to study those lectures? Do you really have to know every detail in the lecture lessons before making it to the next grade? It seems that there are a lot of details to know and these apparently hampers our progress more than anything. Ex I memorized all the Hebrew letters but besides that they want to know its values, sounds, what they mean, etc.
 

zoas23

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Zoas you've been in the golden dawn and went quite far. If I may ask how hard was it to study those lectures? Do you really have to know every detail in the lecture lessons before making it to the next grade? It seems that there are a lot of details to know and these apparently hampers our progress more than anything. Ex I memorized all the Hebrew letters but besides that they want to know its values, sounds, what they mean, etc.

The first steps can be incredibly boring, but they are necessary.
The Hebrew letters and their values is not even a 0.001% of what you'll end up memorizing (in the long term).
The difference is that these first things are essentially nonsensical by the time you study them (i.e, you end up memorizing the Hebrew letters and some values they have, but you don't know what to do with them, so it seems pointless and it is indeed boring -or not specially more interesting than having to memorize the phone number of 20 friends).

It's not there to hamper anyone's progress. It's actually a necessary condition for a subsequent progress. Anyway, I know it's boring.
It is similar to trying to learn how to write poetry. You have to know the letters, but then you have to know the words... and then the grammar rules... and, finally, you end up writing poetry and you are not truly forcing your mind as to remember which one is each letter, you have certainly memorized, but it becomes an automatic memory that doesn't need an effort.

We all tend to think that it would be easier to have a book or a notebook that takes the place of our memory and we can simply write the letters there... but it's not possible.
It is similar to the idea of writing a poem with some notebooks besides us: one of them explains which ones are the letters, another is a dictionary in which we have to check the words we can use, and finally a book that explains the grammar as to organize them in sentences: of course, you can't write a poem if you need all those notebooks as to write it.

Anyway, yes, it's very demanding. Probably similar to being studying Medicine at the University (though during by far more years). It does take time until it becomes interesting, but because we all like to think (or at least understand).

In short: yes, you have to memorize it... though it ends up becoming an automatic memory that doesn't need any kind of effort (in the same way that your memory hosts a lot of English words, but it's not that you are making some sort of effort when you talk or write as to find those words that you have memorized).

The point is not to torture people by making them memorize random things. They are important in that context (similar to a doctor who knows which ones are the organs of a body... and it would be obvious for him that a student of medicine has to memorize them and it's not a torture that a weird sadist invented as to hamper the progress of the aspiring doctors)
 

Florius Frammel

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Though I am not a big fan of the changes the GD did to the Tarot, it could be a big help to memorize the hebrew letters. It is faster and more convenient for the mind to save data together with images and feelings and it isn't as boring this way too.

You'll have to learn the (GD way of the)Tarot anyway, so I would suggest you use it as a tool to learn your letters.
 

zoas23

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Though I am not a big fan of the changes the GD did to the Tarot, it could be a big help to memorize the hebrew letters. It is faster and more convenient for the mind to save data together with images and feelings and it isn't as boring this way too.

You'll have to learn the (GD way of the)Tarot anyway, so I would suggest you use it as a tool to learn your letters.

Whatever works is OK.
The real trick is that our memory can be trained, but the only way to train it is by using it.
So learning 22 symbols, their names, their values, etc. seems challenging... but after some time of memorizing similar things, it becomes an issue of 5 or 10 minutes.
Probably similar to the case of any waiter who works at a big restaurant: memorizing what 10 persons are going to eat and drink is not really a challenge for such person, though another person who has not been doing it would probably get confused.