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Gnostic Alchemy

zoas23

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I can't say it better than Andro:

Upon second reading, the book is deep in some aspects, but rather naive and immature in others.

There are lots of childish explanations, logical fallacies and assumptions based on the Author's personal/cultural perspective and influences (Herbert Spencer, Theosophy, some 'New Thought', etc...)

He tends to repeatedly belittle mankind/the human experience ("we poor, petty mortals" and such...) and also to prove his assumptions based on the same assumptions he is trying to prove...

IMO, this work is definitely NOT a comprehensive foundation of Hermetic Philosophy. It is full of 'bugs'.

The book has SOME interesting concepts, but the ONLY interesting ones are quite "universal" and you can find them almost everywhere (i.e, "The Law of Polarity"... "The Law of Correspondences"... these ideas, well, who has NOT read them a thousand times in previous books?).

I completely agree with the theory that the author is Atkinson (or maybe Atkinson & Foster Case)... and it is very "dated" and influenced by some New Agey ideas of the time (the least interesting side of Theosophy, the Western "orientalism" that was popular at the time, some nuances of Kardec's spiritism, some decadent Mesmerism... a lot of fin de siècle puritanism).

I know it is the "Bible of Alchemy" for a lot of persons... I simply don't see much value in it.
 

ArcherSage

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The gnostics did not believe in the fallen angel concept of Lucifer, that is a concept the church invented. The demiurge/satan was never in the true kingdom of God "the realm of barbelo/light", rather he/it was created in the lower realms and has no knowledge of the higher planes.
 

Andro

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The gnostics did not believe in the fallen angel concept of Lucifer, that is a concept the church invented. The demiurge/satan was never in the true kingdom of God "the realm of barbelo/light", rather he/it was created in the lower realms and has no knowledge of the higher planes.

I some Gnostic materials, the 'Christ' office is divided between 'Christ Jesus' (White Sun) and 'Christ Lucifer' (Black Sun). In the more anthropomorphized models, The 'White Sun Christ' is considered 'male' and the 'Black Sun Christ' is considered 'female' (as a sort of 'womb' containing the realm of infinite and UN-Specified potential/probability).

'Satan' is a different Archetype altogether, more comparable to the Gnostic 'Demiurge' (who is merely posing as 'creator', as there is no such thing as 'creator', since everything ALREADY 'is', outside the realm of space/time perception), the same 'Demiurge' who actually fixes/collapses probabilities (via 'White Solar' Intent) and according to its own centralized 'plans', as opposed to every one being able (and having the CONSCIOUSLY ACCESSSIBLE choice) to fix/collapse their own version(s)/variations from the Ocean of Possibilities that exists as potential on the 'other side of the 'Veil'.
 

Awani

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I know it is the "Bible of Alchemy" for a lot of persons... I simply don't see much value in it.

It is not an important book for me really - so I don't care to defend it, however if you and Andro share the same reasons why it is "not good" then there are some things of those reasons that I don't agree with at all. The reasons you give bug me, not that they discredit the Kybalion (could not care less), but the reasons on their own makes no sense.

There are lots of childish explanations, logical fallacies and assumptions based on the Author's personal/cultural perspective and influences (Herbert Spencer, Theosophy, some 'New Thought', etc...).

I personally love childish simpicity. There is nothing worse than the Phd vomit of academia.

To discount something using the term logical fallacy is a logical fallacy... but the meaning of the term basically - if one has a certain outlook on reality - can be applied to any statement... EVERYTHING can be viewed as a logical fallacy. In social media alt-right and SJW and those people usually call each other out using this term. For me personally it is nothing more than a slogan used by those that have no deep thinking at all, and are simply trying to discredit any argument with a fancy term that is stupid to begin with. Now I know neither of you fall in these categories, just wanted to point out my feeling on that term.

EVERYTHING is based on the Author... so that is not a reason either in my opinion.

"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." - Herbert Spencer

Considering the current state of affairs in the world looks like a job well done. LOL.

The gnostics did not believe in the fallen angel concept of Lucifer, that is a concept the church invented. The demiurge/satan was never in the true kingdom of God "the realm of barbelo/light", rather he/it was created in the lower realms and has no knowledge of the higher planes.

Gnostics viewed the God in the Old Testament as the Demiurge. To explain this term to normal Christians, novices and such I would use the name Satan, to simplify. Doesn't really matter if there was or was not a Satan. It's all allegory regardless and an allegory must be adaptable.

The Serpent was the good guy. ;) Like Jesus said much later: "Be wise as Serpents."

:cool:
 
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Quarrox

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I think the Kybalion is a nice lecture for Neophytes like me. It offers some simple, basic summaries, something that breaks down extremely complex factors into a easy to digest appetizer. I think it serves well as a first step on the staircase to higher spheres of awareness.
 

Awani

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Indeed you got to start somewhere. I started with Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade almost 30 years ago... LOL.

:cool:
 

Schmuldvich

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I think the Kybalion is a nice lecture for Neophytes like me. It offers some simple, basic summaries, something that breaks down extremely complex factors into a easy to digest appetizer. I think it serves well as a first step on the staircase to higher spheres of awareness.


Check out "The Divine Pymander"...Worth reading in its entirety imo, though if you do not have the time, just reading a chapter or two at random will further your knowledge and understanding of Hermeticism and Alchemy. Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes out of your day. Very easy reading, densely packed with applicable value. Look into it!
 

Amon

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Very cool to see someone posting some Walter Russell. Certainly a man more people need to study, especially those who study the esoteric arts. Nice post, Amon! Have you had the chance to read any of his other works?

Not yet, i haven't even finished the Universal One to be honest. But its on my to-do list after i am done with university examinations (which i feel i am gonna fail at) followed by the writings of Leedskalnin. If the nature of things is really as simple as the old sciences preach, and the theories of Leedskalnin and Russell stand correct, then it will be of huge benefit in many areas of our lives.
 

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I did not mean to affiliate Lucifer with Satan, I was using the term loosely as it pertains to Christianity today. I was simply stating that the Demiurge never fell from grace, it was created by an entity from the higher planes and was trapped in the lower realms. And yes it is the God of the Old Testament, the greedy God who believes he is the true origin of all things but is ignorant of its own origin.
 

Awani

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And yes it is the God of the Old Testament, the greedy God who believes he is the true origin of all things but is ignorant of its own origin.

Same mental issue most humans have. :)

:cool:
 

Quarrox

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And yes it is the God of the Old Testament, the greedy God who believes he is the true origin of all things but is ignorant of its own origin.

So in your opinion, the Demiurge is Yahweh, the God in judaism?
 

Awani

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Here are some related quotes from the book Gnostic Philosophy - From Ancient Persia to Modern Times by Tobias Churton (that I recommend if you want to get a good overall insight into Gnosticism):

"Insofar as the Demiurge claimed to be the highest God, then the Demiurge, the awful creator of the material universe, was for Gnostics a false god. The Gnostic had seen through his deceptive handiwork, and, free of it by virtue of knowledge [gnosis i.e. gnosticism], could "look down" on it. Enemies of the Gnostics regarded this posture as one of insufferable arrogance. The radical Gnostic could reply that such a position was as nothing compared to the supreme destructiveness and arrogating offence of the Demiurge - himself the blind god who knows no higher than himself."

"Reckoning the Father in heaven preached by Jesus to be superior in character to the God of much of the Hebrew Bible [old testament], it was natural for Gnostics to indentify any lesser conception of the highest God with the Demiurge, who had, they believed, blinded the Jewish people to the central gnosis."

"...only spirit is ultimately real. Time and space (the world of the Demiurge) are not absolutes; they are conditions of perception."

:cool:
 
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Andro

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The 'Looking Glass' or 'Dual Mirror' I've mentioned above has this interesting quality of reflecting our convictions back at us, even if they contradict each other.

See text compilation in the image below.

What Russel refers to as (Un-Created) 'Sub-Stance' is what another author (Vadim Zeland) is referring to as 'The Space of Variants'.

What we mistakenly regard as 'creation' (i.e. 'ex nihil') is merely an "integration into continuity of what already exists in sub-stance" (Russel) or a 'Fixation' or 'realization' of certain scrips from the 'Space of Variants' (Zeland).

The 'Black Sun' is comparable to the 'cloud' (where all possible and probable reality scripts and variations exist in an UN-specified, UN-determined state, outside time and space), and the 'White Sun' is comparable to the fixing/rendering Agency, the 'Interface' that subjectively 'fixes' perception within 'space' and time' coordinates. Again, this 'pair' is loosely comparable to Mercury and Sulfur in Practical Alchemy.

Achieving perfect Sync/Unity between the 'White Sun' Mind and the 'Black Sun' Substance is what can theoretically allow us abilities such as are displayed in the movie Dark City ('tuning') or Inception.

Concepts such as The 'Veil' ('The Veil of Isis'), 'The Separator' or 'The Dual Mirror' (Alice Through the Looking Glass and YES, EVEN THE FIRST HARRY POTTER MOVIE! - the mirror scene) have been mimicked via substitute/surrogate surfaces such as Canvas (painting), Silver Screen (cinema), television, and more recently in our fascination with the screens of our computers, tablets, 'smart'-phones, VR interfaces, etc... Basically simulacrums of rendering various 'realities' from a database 'somewhere'.

PS: It has been suggested that I present those concepts again, like I would explain them 'to idiots'.

This has been my attempt to do so, although I sincerely doubt there are any idiots hanging out here :)
 

Schmuldvich

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See text compilation in the image below.

What Russel refers to as (Un-Created) 'Sub-Stance' is what another author (Vadim Zeland) is referring to as 'The Space of Variants'.

What we mistakenly regard as 'creation' (i.e. 'ex nihil') is merely an "integration into continuity of what already exists in sub-stance" (Russel) or a 'Fixation' or 'realization' of certain scrips from the 'Space of Variants' (Zeland).

The 'Black Sun' is comparable to the 'cloud' (where all possible and probable reality scripts and variations exist in an UN-specified, UN-determined state, outside time and space), and the 'White Sun' is comparable to the fixing/rendering Agency, the 'Interface' or that subjectively 'fixes' perception in 'space' and time' coordinates. Again, this 'pair' is loosely comparable to Mercury and Sulfur in Practical Alchemy.

Achieving perfect Sync/Unity between the 'White Sun' Mind and the 'Black Sun' Substance is what can theoretically allow us abilities such as are displayed in the movie Dark City ('tuning') or Inception.

Concepts such as The 'Veil' ('The Veil of Isis'), 'The Separator' or 'The Dual Mirror' (Alice Through the Looking Glass and YES, EVEN THE FIRST HARRY POTTER MOVIE! - the mirror scene) have been mimicked via substitute/surrogate surfaces such as Canvas (painting), Silver Screen (cinema), television, and more recently in our fascination with the screens of our computers, tablets, 'smart'-phones, VR interfaces, etc... Basically simulacrums of rendering various 'realities' from a database 'somewhere'.

PS: It has been suggested that I present those concepts again, like I would explain them 'to idiots'.

This has been my attempt to do so, although I sincerely doubt there are any idiots hanging out here :)

Really great post! Thank you! Very rarely do I agree with "unprovable" concepts such as those presented, but I find myself inwardly and outwardly agreeing with the majority of what you just posted. I appreciate you sharing, and I'm sure many others do as well... :)
 

Awani

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It has been suggested that I present those concepts again.

Yes, ok if I understand you correctly then that is kind of what I said earlier.

The Macrocosm of God is Creation... and that is why the highest forms of endeavours humans can take up is the Microcosmic form of Creation: shamanism, art, alchemy, music, literature, films, love (babies)...

To me this rendering = creation. I don't see it as a download... because some downloads cannot be made until you "create"/build a bridge (which makes the "download" possible). And as for "god", this cloud you speak of - where all possible and probable reality scripts and variations exist - is in my view a highly creative space... or at least a sandbox. So God is a Creator. IMO. And if the word "creator" is confusing then maybe Producer is better. Executive Producer.

So I guess our problem is semantics yet again.

:cool:
 
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elixirmixer

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If Hermeticism and Gnosticism got in a fight, who would win? :cool:

See Reason for edit for answer ;)
 
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Quarrox

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I hope i do not count as an Idiot, but there are so many keywords i have never heard before (at least not in this context): Dual mirror, looking glass, black sun, white sun, cloud, etc. etc. creating speculative notions in me. I think i should go back to study, reading some books.
 

Awani

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I hope i do not count as an Idiot, but there are so many keywords i have never heard before (at least not in this context): Dual mirror, looking glass, black sun, white sun, cloud, etc. etc. creating speculative notions in me. I think i should go back to study, reading some books.

He was talking about me...

Also I think that is kind of Andro-specific terminology (although many of those words can be found elsewhere)... so I guess if you read a lot of Andro's posts those words will make more sense.

:cool:
 

Andro

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I hope i do not count as an Idiot, but there are so many keywords i have never heard before (at least not in this context): Dual mirror, looking glass, black sun, white sun, cloud, etc. etc. creating speculative notions in me. I think i should go back to study, reading some books.

I haven't used any neologisms.

Perhaps it's the context and the way these terms are combined, to paint a certain picture/model that I wanted to offer for consideration.
 

Quarrox

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Thanks, for the link.

I haven't used any neologisms.

Perhaps it's the context and the way these terms are combined, to paint a certain picture/model that I wanted to offer for consideration.


I was reading your prior post a few times again. The book page you posted is interesting too, i had to translate quite a few words, as english is not my mother tongue. But i try to summarize.

Can we compare the black sun/cloud/substance concept to a huge tank, filled with a mass of uncreated, infinite information in infinite combinations. Invisible and outside of the 3-dimensional space and time construct?

In contrast, the white sun offers an infinite quantity of different molds to be filled with the substance of the cloud to cast an infinite number of perceptions?

And as i understand the attached text from the book: The "reality" behaves the way we expect it to behave, the material world appears how we expect and how we believe it to appear. At the same time it presents itself to us as it is, even if this statement is contradictory. Observation affects reality. An example from quantum physics which was proven: Particles like electrons can also behave as waves, as long as observed and change their nature back to particle state when ignored.

I don't know if it does make sense.
 

Andro

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Can we compare the black sun/cloud/substance concept to a huge tank, filled with a mass of uncreated, infinite information in infinite combinations. Invisible and outside of the 3-dimensional space and time construct?

In contrast, the white sun offers an infinite quantity of different molds to be filled with the substance of the cloud to cast an infinite number of perceptions?

And as i understand the attached text from the book: The "reality" behaves the way we expect it to behave, the material world appears how we expect and how we believe it to appear. At the same time it presents itself to us as it is, even if this statement is contradictory. Observation affects reality. An example from quantum physics which was proven: Particles like electrons can also behave as waves, as long as observed and change their nature back to particle state when ignored.

Perhaps it can be easier (if only for the sake of analogical understanding) to compare the 'White Sun' to the conscious/left brained mind and the Black Sun to the Universal Super-conscious, which can be accessed via the individual right-brained 'subconscious'.

The 'White Sun' can be regarded as acting like a sort of Sulfur or 'Fixing Agent' for everything that is rendered from the Mercurial 'Other side of The Veil' (i.e. 'The Space of Variants').

Those 'Two Suns' (2 sides of the same coin/Sun) are in a sort of constant 'alchemical feedback loop' with each other, hence, for example, if we want to corporify UN-Determined Spiritus Mundi (Black Sun Emanation), we have, in many cases, to circumvent its 'Solar Uptake' (for example, by operating before sunrise).

It is believed in certain circles that this (otherwise all-pervading) 'Dual Mirror' is somehow also physically manifest at what we refer to as the 'North Pole' (hence many authors advising us to direct ourselves towards the Magnetic North), as well as the model of those emanations being reflected back from the Pole Star (right above the so-called North Pole), especially if/when the 'White Sun' is not 'interfering' and absorbing it into itself before we get the chance to 'catch' it.

I have personally witnessed this 'North Pole Phenomenon' out-of body, however, this only validates the concept for me, so I am only offering all this as a model for consideration.

 

Schmuldvich

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Observation affects reality. An example from quantum physics which was proven: Particles like electrons can also behave as waves, as long as observed and change their nature back to particle state when ignored.

Yes! I am familiar with this study. If true and repeatable (like we are being told), this is an extraordinarily interesting discovery! We all know how important perception is in our lives. To know that observation affects things too is a game-changer and greatly intrigues me. What can we do with this knowledge?
 

Andro

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Yes! I am familiar with this study. If true and repeatable (like we are being told), this is an extraordinarily interesting discovery! We all know how important perception is in our lives. To know that observation affects things too is a game-changer and greatly intrigues me. What can we do with this knowledge?

Tom Campbell deals with this extensively in his research. We have a dedicated thread on it HERE.
 

Quarrox

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Thank you Andro for the analogy, i think i understand better now.

@Schmuldvich, a good question. I think quantum physics can open doors of whose existence we do not even know of. Another very interesting phenomenon are particles that behave dependent on each other, even if they are millions of lightyears apart. Space and distance do not matter in this example. These particles seem to be connected and entangled in a mysterious, invisible network (think about teleportation). I think science and spirituality have to and will unite.