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Gnostic Alchemy

Awani

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This is a Phoenix-thread from the old site.

In the Gospel of Philip it says:
Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing.

To resurrect while still alive is to achieve the transmutation from lead into gold, or from the dead body/life into the living body/life. Or in even clearer terms from being one day Mr. Joe to the next God!

Astral travel, telepathy and such things is a possibility when the inner forces are awakened. We are all First Born and that is natural. To be Second Born takes a great deal of skill, and then finally to become Thrice Born that takes great will.


The fact that the Gnostic Society has links to alchemical texts shows that Gnosticism and Alchemy walk common ground!

Thoughts, ideas, questions or suggestions concerning the merging of Alchemy and Gnosticism?

gnostic.jpg

WCH said:
Wasn't the connection between Gnosticism and Alchemy the reason for Jung's interest in the latter? My understanding is that he had all these cool ideas, but was discouraged because nobody seemed to understand what he was talking about and he couldn't find any historical roots for them until he discovered Gnosticism and realised a lot of his theories were sort of neo-Gnostic. Felt better, but still saw it as odd that there was seemingly no continuation between what people did two thousand years prior and what he was doing... until he discovered alchemy and decided that alchemy was essentially a method of coding Gnostic beliefs in such a way as to escape persecution by the Church. He goes on to argue that alchemy, therefore, is the missing link between Gnosticism and his theories.

Of course, I've heard some criticism on these boards of Jung's approach to alchemy, and I agree to an extent... I think he reduces it too much, minimizing the practical side in favour of the spiritual, when, really, the two need to be going hand in hand or neither is going to work, at least as well. Still, I felt it was important to raise for discussion his thoughts on the subject.
deviadah said:
WCH said:
Of course, I've heard some criticism on these boards of Jung's approach to alchemy, and I agree to an extent... I think he reduces it too much, minimizing the practical side in favour of the spiritual, when, really, the two need to be going hand in hand or neither is going to work, at least as well.
Yes I have noticed that too... I for one am somewhat pro-Jung. I think he is an important figure and has pulled forth a lot of forgotten shit back into the collective!

There has always been a silent war between the practical and spiritual sides of alchemy - and in fact one of the reasons why these forums exist is to put an end to this battle.

None is better than the other... and none is 100% accurate without the other. They are both part of the same system i.e. As above so below, as without so within... etc
solomon levi said:
Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing.
Yes - to my understanding, this is referring to other bodies which we possess, other levels of energy,
as you mentioned astral travel, etc. These bodies actually require some exercising. For one who is used
to walking and moving muscles, even on an unconscious/automatic level, to move while out of
the body is completely different - an effort of will/intent, which we don't normally use on a
conscious level, yet intent underlies everything we do. So when people die, if they have not
learned to utilise these bodies whilst alive, they will not be available when dead either, and
thus death will be an ending of the known and of themselves as far as they are concerned.

Something else to contemplate is waking up in your dreams, realising the dream nature of this world.

Some movies attempt to show this paradox of learning to use other bodies - "Ghost", "The Matrix".
overfien said:
The resurrection is the lifting of the seven serpents. These are the seven levels of knowledge the seven doorways of the seven great initiations of Major Mysteries. Each body has its own sacred fire. Revelations 2:1 “Unto the Angel of the church of Ephesus write: “These things said he that holdeth the seven Stars in his right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks.” This angel is our Inner Christ who walks in the midst of the seven golden candle sticks. The seven stars are the seven major chakras. Each of our seven bodies that needs to be resurrected has its own golden candlestick.
ThPhARTh said:
Hello Overfien,

I wonder, were does the idea of 7 bodies come from?
edit: can you explain a bit, as well as the source?
or experience?
deviadah said:
Might not answer your question but there is a lot of 7 related material in this thread: Seven
ThPhARTh said:
Am aware of the magnificence of 7, so great topic, thanks Dev

can it be a bit more complicated ( ) as -a body connected to each chakra.- ?
how I see Alchemy .. it is.
unless specific energy's are regarded as a body but are they Bodies in fact?
 

Quarrox

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Hi,

what is the difference between the both or how are they related? I often read that hermeticism belongs to gnosticism (or the other way around), and that the one is a subsection of the other. I know that the gnosticism has various branches, like the Rosicrucians for example. But Hermeticism??


Gnosticism:

-Has a transcendent god
-Has a fake creator god, named Demiurge, it created the physical universe
-The Demiurge has servants, called Archons, who are the connection joints between the humans and the Demiurge
-Gnosticism is partly connected to Christianity (???)

Hermeticism:

-No creator god, just the one and only
-God aka "the All" is beyond comprehension
-Apparently one of the oldest philosophies and cradle of all (?) religions
-The universe(s) is/are a mental dream of the All, or rather a divine meditation and hence outside of the "All".

I wrote down a lot of half knowledge and some speculation. I try to learn and understand how Gnosticism and Hermeticism are connected or rather the opposite, separated? Corrections of my statements and further explanations are highly welcomed.

Thanks!
 
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Andro

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I think you are indeed proposing the 'right' questions...

I suppose this thread could turn into a very interesting discussion, if it picks up :)
 

Quarrox

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Andro, thanks. Hopefully! I tried to find direct comparisons of the two in the internet, so far without success.
 

Awani

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I would say that they are equal and seperate as well. Gnosticism is, IMO, true Christianity. The Demiurge you mention is the God of the old testament.

Hermeticism is more of a philosophical and esoteric concept from the works of "hermes". It is hermeticism that, in a sense, has moved laboratory alchemy into the realm of spiritual alchemy.

Gnosticism is a modern word and refer to the early followers of Jesus.

Also if a God is not a creator it is not a God. ;)

:cool:
 

Awani

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I would also not say Rosicrucianism is a branch of Gnosticism, rather a branch of Hermeticism.

Gnosticism is stand-alone origin-Christianity.

:cool:
 

Quarrox

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I would say that they are equal and separate as well. Gnosticism is, IMO, true Christianity.

Jehovah? A god that punishes and demands worshipping? So why does the transcendent God "allow" the Demiurge to act like it desires? I think the point in Gnosticism is becoming enlightened and aware of the true nature of God and ourselves. What role does the Demiurge play in this scenario? The Demiurge must be a creation of the supreme God, so it must have a purpose, right?

I like your summary.
 

Awani

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The Demiurge is Satan. Satan is a fallen angel. Archetypically speaking that is.

You cannot learn about love if there is no hate. ;)

:cool:
 
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Quarrox

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And now a lot more makes sense :)

Thank you Dev, i must rest and think about it for a while. Thumbs up!
 

Awani

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No problem. But keep in mind that this is my view. The true truth can only come from within... I don't claim authority in these matters, only authorship of my own views.

:cool:
 

Quarrox

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Yes, sure. Don't worry, it is just another puzzle piece to think about, to contemplate. Perhaps i will reject the puzzle piece again and try to find one that fits better. :)
 

Kiorionis

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You cannot learn about love if there is no hate. ;)

I agree, based on my experiences. And where Love teaches sympathy, unity and compassion (and etc.), Hate teaches equally well the virtues of strength, resilience and fortitude (and etc.).
 

Amon

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The following comes from Walter Russell's "The Universal One"

[image link broken]

I believe it completely agrees with hermeticism and the God of Christianity. Looking at the universe that way blew up my mind. To think that we don't exist apart, that there are not many, but ONE. That everything is a different manifestation of the One, that "comes" into existance as a result of the motion of the One substance. Therefore all things are One and all return to One.

The All of Hermeticism is the One from which all springs forth. And that One is not apart from the physical universe. It IS the universe
 

Andro

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Also if a God is not a creator it is not a God. ;)

No one creates anything. Everything already exists, even if only in potential.

Whoever poses as 'creator(s)' - all they do is download and 'fix' their own version of reality into the (perceived as fixed) realm of the left-brained realm of the 'White Sun'.

The 'Black Sun' is the sub/super-conscious of all possibilities/probabilities, while the 'White Sun' is the left-brain conscious intent and reality-fixing agent.

If (for example) we contemplate the classical Yin-Yang symbol beyond the exoteric meaning traditionally associated with it, we may glimpse into some much deeper mysteries...

A fully active, internalized and synchronized feedback loop between the Black Sun and the White Sun (which may be loosely compared to 'Mercury' and 'Sulfur', respectively) would allow us the same 'reality download access' as those who pose as 'creator gods'.

The 'dividing' area inside the Yin-Yang symbol is representative of the 'veil' or 'dual mirror' between the realm of UN-manifest and manifest probabilities. The double-faced figure of Janus is an allegory for having 'eyes' in both wolds.

There is no 'creator god'.

Many so-called 'Hermetic' writings (such as the 'Kybalion') are partially well conceived psy-op scripts (so is the bible script/code in many ways, including 'predictive programming'), designed to implant us with certain fixed, rigid and hierarchical models of reality, but if we read (for example) the Kybalion, we can discern that it is FULL of logical fallacies, as well as conveniently avoiding the most significant 'questions'.

I personally find the Walter Russel quote above to be quite accurate in many ways, as much as anything can be 'accurate' in a reality that is marketed and implanted into us as 'fixed', but is in fact far from being so.

What is described in Gnosticism as 'Archons' can be seen as 'beings' (or constructs) who can 'download' their own reality models from 'the other side of the looking glass' and subsequently market them to us as 'this is the way it is'. Marketing propaganda is accomplished via two main methods: Seduction and Intimidation. These 'Archons' also love to 'pose' as 'creators', but this is not the case. One could say they may have better developed 'download access' abilities through the 'looking glass', from where already exiting potential realities are downloaded and marketed as 'Creation'.

janus-2.jpg
 

Awani

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No one creates anything. Everything already exists, even if only in potential. Whoever poses as 'creator(s)' - all they do is download and 'fix' their own version of reality into the (perceived as fixed) realm of the left-brained realm of the 'White Sun'. There is no 'creator god'.

You are correct if you are speaking about "lower" level aspects of the Mystical Algorithm of the Divine. If you are speaking about "God" then I disagree.

But the Origin/Source... the Uncreated Self-generating Divine Light Mystery... aka God... is a Creator. Anything within/without of this "God" falls under the views you just stated... but none of these things would exist at all if the Source had not "created" them.

The Kogi people have this creation myth, which is one of the best I have ever come across and fits perfectly all the theories/ideas and direct experiences I have had:

In the beginning there was nothing. All was darkness. There was nothing at all. Only the mother. She was Aluna. She was pure thought. Without form. She began to think. The mother conceived the world in the darkness. She conceived us as ideas. As we think out a house before we begin to make it real. She spun the thread. Spinning us all in the story. Creating us in thought. And then came the light. And the world was real. - source

Notice that the "nothing" is not nothing, because Aluna/God was there. Meaning "nothing" + "god" is the same thing... or there would be just nothing.

The Big Bang is a creation.

If everything inside this creation is already created, even all time lines and pasts and futures... sure fine... but the source is creation.

The Macrocosm of God is Creation... and that is why the highest forms of endeavours humans can take up is the Microcosmic form of Creation: shamanism, art, alchemy, music, literature, films, love (babies)...

It is not a trap. It is a mirror of the "man" upstairs.

So yes by performing Sacred Art (creation) we are dowloading and fixing some version of reality... but any Sacred Art of the highest order achieves transcendence for the practitioner (for the creator) regardless if it is a download or an actual creation. Complete passivity will lead nowhere. The silent monk who does nothing has validity, but we must not be fooled that such a monk does "nothing"... that he is trying to avoid any form of creation. Far from it.

To be able to achieve complete unity with the mind of God, with the unknown nothingness, is a Creation of achieving "true" perception and ultimately a liberation from the Creation in the first place.

I don't see a dualism in this. Uncreated vs. Created.

Rather I see everything as Created and yet everything as Uncreated, since - like the song goes... "row row row your boat gently down the stream, merrily merrily merrily merrily... life is but a dream".

IMHO.

...designed to implant us with certain fixed, rigid and hierarchical models of reality...

Which can also includes your own views (and my own) as none is "safe" from such models/designs (lack of hierarchy is a sort of hierarchy of one/none)... so beware. ;)

:cool:
 

Andro

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IF by 'creation' you mean the 'fixing' of certain variations from the UN-Created infinite realm of probabilities, then the disagreement is merely a semantic issue.

But the realm of the 'Black Sun' (call it 'Aluna', if you will) was/is never created and is beyond ALL our concepts of space & time. It doesn't 'create' either, there is nothing to be created that doesn't already exist in the so-called 'Dark Dimension' (so named as well as allegorically represented in the movie 'Doctor Strange', where for some weird reason it is portrayed as 'evil')

In term of infinite possibilities/probabilities, there is no 'nothing'. Still, perceived reality is merely a 'collapse of the wave function' or a 'collapse of a set of probabilities into a perceived state of 'fixation'. Or, the rendering of a 'wave' into a 'particle' (like in the double slit experiment).

Becoming 'Whole' or 'Liberated' involves (the way I see it) the internal unification of the 2 realms (Above & Below, Left and Right, conscious and sub/super-conscious - return to be KNOWN - not 'perceived' - as 'One Thing'). Hemispheric Synchronization, in more 'modern' terms. The 'Janus' hermaphrodite become androgynous. The two Suns become known as ONE.

What choices are available when this is accomplished - I don't gno.
 

Awani

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To know is a perception, because even in the knowing of the highest order - when there is no doubt - there will always be the unknown possibility.

Becoming Whole = Creation

I diasagree that the Black Sun, as you call it, does not create. Frankly it is the opposite. It does nothing but create. To be fair when something acts in a perpetual manner it might seem static to the outsider.

If "it" did not create we would not have this conversation.

So to a degree there might be some semantic issue, but also there seems to be a sort of difference in outlook. IMO.

All I have stated thus far I know deeply, but I do not claim to "know". That would be silly. ;)

:cool:
 
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Andro

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All I have stated thus far I know deeply, but I do not claim to "know".

The 'Looking Glass' or 'Dual Mirror' I've mentioned above has this interesting quality of reflecting our convictions back at us, even if they contradict each other :)

Now, to take these concepts a bit further, on our physical plane, this 'Looking Glass' or 'Veil' or 'Dual Mirror' (or Separator) can be (metaphorically or not) associated with the surface/water level.

From the preface of Nietzsche's 'The Gay Science':

Where you stand, there dig deep!
Below you lies the well!
Let obscurantists wail and weep:
"Below is always - hell!"


The 'Light of the 'Black Sun' (limitless, UN-specified potential) rises from (below) Earth -> to (above) Heaven ('White Sun'/Left Brain/fixation/collapse of probability via Conscious Intent) and thus gathers the 'powers' of both 'Above' and 'Below', to accomplish the 'Miracle of One Thing'.
 

Quarrox

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The Demiurge is Satan. Satan is a fallen angel. Archetypically speaking that is.
:cool:
The gnostic concept of the Demiurge aka Satan is a negative one, correct? Why is this Demiurge allowed to operate, what is the point? Wouldn't that make the gnostic transcendent God a positive one and hence subordinate it to the dualistic concept? And if it wouldn't make God a positive one, what is still the point?
In the hermetic philosophy, as far as i know, the All is untouched of any of the 7 hermetic laws (Kybalion), it is the law above the laws.

You cannot learn about love if there is no hate. ;)

:cool:
That makes a lot of sense to me. But would the neutral balance between love and hate not be the ideal state? Both are the same thing, just very polar, on the opposite end of the scale. If you love a lot, you can hate a lot too. If you can be very euphoric, you can be very melancholic too, etc. I think a "neutral" level of all conditions and states, is a form of (auto)control. For me, love is a desirable state, but the right thing perhaps might be a neutral state, free of emotions, the perfect balance.

The following comes from Walter Russell's "The Universal One"

I believe it completely agrees with hermeticism and the God of Christianity. Looking at the universe that way blew up my mind. To think that we don't exist apart, that there are not many, but ONE. That everything is a different manifestation of the One, that "comes" into existence as a result of the motion of the One substance. Therefore all things are One and all return to One.

The All of Hermeticism is the One from which all springs forth. And that One is not apart from the physical universe. It IS the universe

It says that "God is the universe. God is not one and the universe another". So this is, in my interpretation, a pantheistic view. God is in everything that is. But when hermeticism teaches that the universe is a mental thought of the All, it means that is separated from God/All. If i send out a thought, it is sent away. I am not my thought, i am the father of my thought. Tho, possible that it's true, but then it would contradict to the hermetic idea IMHO.
Also, which kind of universe is meant? The physical one, the mental one, the spiritual one or all of them?
The Kybalion for example talks about 3 different planes (chapter VIII, planes of correspondence).
And do we carry the often mentioned divine spark in us? Is the spark on a long journey to finally reunite with the all?
Sorry for the many questions.

Many so-called 'Hermetic' writings (such as the 'Kybalion') are partially well conceived psy-op scripts (so is the bible script/code in many ways, including 'predictive programming'), designed to implant us with certain fixed, rigid and hierarchical models of reality, but if we read (for example) the Kybalion, we can discern that it is FULL of logical fallacies, as well as conveniently avoiding the most significant 'questions'.

I personally find the Walter Russel quote above to be quite accurate in many ways, as much as anything can be 'accurate' in a reality that is marketed and implanted into us as 'fixed', but is in fact far from being so.

Could you give some examples of the fallacies and avoidance of the most significant questions? I remember i had some doubts about some teachings, it's a shame i don't remember them at the moment, i should start making notes. In summary it had pretty much "Aha"-effects for me. This is my first book. Could you give advices for other, maybe "better" books to read and learn?
 

Amon

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It says that "God is the universe. God is not one and the universe another". So this is, in my interpretation, a pantheistic view. God is in everything that is. But when hermeticism teaches that the universe is a mental thought of the All, it means that is separated from God/All. If i send out a thought, it is sent away. I am not my thought, i am the father of my thought. Tho, possible that it's true, but then it would contradict to the hermetic idea IMHO.
Also, which kind of universe is meant? The physical one, the mental one, the spiritual one or all of them?
The Kybalion for example talks about 3 different planes (chapter VIII, planes of correspondence).
And do we carry the often mentioned divine spark in us? Is the spark on a long journey to finally reunite with the all?
Sorry for the many questions.

My understanding is that there is One Mind and One Essence, and this One Essence by "moving" generates to "illusion" of duality, then of multiplicity and then of separation. Thats the easiest way i can put it. Its topics like this when you realize how restraining human language is. Maybe because we are trying to describe things of which we know nothing similar or close in qualities. Its like trying to explain colors to a blind by birth. The 3 universes of the Kybalion all exist simultanously and are groups that contain the primordial essence vibrating in certain frequencies (like the Infrared group is ONE group that contains MANY wavelengths etc.). The physical universe is the one where what we call "physical" is primordial essence vibrating at another group of vibrations. In short, all the so called "different" universes are the effect of One substance vibrating and the "illusion" of them being different is only due to how our mind operates. Its like saying snow, ice,water and steam are different. They are the same thing in different vibratory states. As for the last question, i do believe it is. I don't know what God's goal is by doing all this or if there even is any (as the gospel's say "the Lord's will is unkown") and i also do not believe that God wants you to eternally "burn" in hell. If i recall correctly, hell is actually called "purgatory" which in a sense could mean to wash ignorance off of yourself and show you the true nature of things. The only thing i see keeping you in "hell" is your own self.
 

Awani

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This is how I see it...

Why is this Demiurge allowed to operate, what is the point?

Everything is a lesson, and "God" is the teacher.


That makes a lot of sense to me. But would the neutral balance between love and hate not be the ideal state? Both are the same thing, just very polar, on the opposite end of the scale.

I disagree. Your statement only makes sense to me if you are talking about "like" and "hate". Love, at least in the sense I see it, is a totally different affair... the English language has raped the word "love"... it is even used in sentences like "I Love Candy"... in other languages this word is - for the most part - only used in the most special cases such as "I Love You".

But when hermeticism teaches that the universe is a mental thought of the All, it means that is separated from God/All.

Are you separated from what you think? Are you the body or the mind or the spirit?

Could you give advices for other, maybe "better" books to read and learn?

Early on in my own studies these books helped me a lot. I have not read them in years so I don't know how I would feel about them now... but when I was a novice, of sorts, in this area of study then these are a few of the books that aided me a great deal:

  • The Secret Teachings of All Ages by Manly P. Hall
  • Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norvill
  • Gnostic Philosophy by Tobias Churton
  • Alchemy Recovered and Restored by Archibald Cockren
  • The Golden Chain of Homer

:cool:
 
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Quarrox

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@Andro + @Awani:

Many thanks for your statements, its something to think about again. And also for the book recommendations!
 

zoas23

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Many so-called 'Hermetic' writings (such as the 'Kybalion') are partially well conceived psy-op scripts (so is the bible script/code in many ways, including 'predictive programming'), designed to implant us with certain fixed, rigid and hierarchical models of reality, but if we read (for example) the Kybalion, we can discern that it is FULL of logical fallacies, as well as conveniently avoiding the most significant 'questions'.

The Kybalion is an early XX century text (I think you know it, but there's always a lot of confusion and people thinking that it's 2000 years old) and is not part of the "classical" Hermetic literature...

... and it's really a bad book.
 

Schmuldvich

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Very cool to see someone posting some Walter Russell. Certainly a man more people need to study, especially those who study the esoteric arts. Nice post, Amon! Have you had the chance to read any of his other works?

Regarding Gnosticism, these are some of my favorite Gnostic texts, being that I can see the Alchemy parallel with these:


The Reality Of The Rulers

On the Origin Of The World

The Treatise On The Resurrection

Eugnostos The Blessed

Allogenes

The Paraphrase Of Shem

Melchizedek

The Thought Of Norea

The Prayer Of Thanksgiving

A Valentinian Exposition

Authoritative Teaching

The Revelation Of Adam

The Three Steles Of Seth

Three Forms Of First Thought

The Sophia Of Jesus Christ

The Second Treatise Of The Great Seth

The Testimony Of Truth

The Gospel Of Truth

The Teachings Of Silvanus​



...As far as Hermeticism goes, everyone needs to read "The Divine Pymander" if they have not.