Exposing the Fiat Mind Virus

Dendritic Xylem

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Neutral AI in human sense of the words, is that even possible??
I really don't know. Maybe in the future. I don't trust the ones we have now.

How shall their children choose their way pr reintegrate into society?
The Amish have "Rumspringa" where the child at age 16 goes out into the world to decide if they want to live in modern society or stay with the Amish community.

Also they'd need much to much place! If everyone did world would be overcrowded.
Yes. This is why I said population control would be required. Or only some limited groups could achieve it rather than everyone globally.
Not everyone is ready to unplug from the matrix.
 

Widur

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don't know. Maybe in the future. I don't trust the ones we have now.
They're not real AIs, as they're not conscious. It's just machine learning.
It's not yet that much code generated that "ghost programs" can spring outta nowhere in programs.
The Amish have "Rumspringa" where the child at age 16 goes out into the world to decide if they want to live in modern society or stay with the Amish community.
Yeah after been indoctrinated!
Yes. This is why I said population control would be required. Or only some limited groups could achieve it rather than everyone globally.
This is fascist, what about the unborn?
Or just some people taking 10 times the place the others need? What for?
Would you like to have been controlled out of existence?
Also… no system… that’s the point. Since you entered this thread, the value of your fiat has decreased half a percent. Enjoy poverty.
You use simplified models.
have no problem if the world is divided and the self reliant freedom lovers live in one part and the retards in the other.
Not fair. One free, one indoctrinated since birth, no both!, which would happen since every society watches out for itself, the free ones, too.
No system is impossible after a certain size is reached.
Not everyone is ready to unplug from the matrix.
Not everyone is ready to unplug from most simplified belief systems it seems.
 

Dendritic Xylem

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They're not real AIs, as they're not conscious. It's just machine learning.
Of course it's just LLMs. Even more reason not to trust it.

Yeah after been indoctrinated!
I didn't say I support everything the Amish do. I just gave you an existing example to your question.

This is fascist, what about the unborn?
Or just some people taking 10 times the place the others need? What for?
Would you like to have been controlled out of existence?
Nature isn't egalitarian. Good luck creating your perfect system that caters to the billions of people that don't give a fuck about you.
There are already people taking 1000 times as much as others. Good luck changing that.
All of us are being controlled out of existence. You can help yourself and loved ones, or cry about equality/equity on the internet. See which is more productive.

I don't want to trash the fiat thread with off topic arguments anymore. We'll have to agree to disagree.
 

ArgentSeeker

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Nice ideas and I agree with the bad stuff like microplastic and that.
But without growth and all that we wouldn't have been able to support 7 billion people with just the least of life standard. If you calculate it through your ideas don't work. Also when most of the real bad shit happened we were in constant danger of total nuclear eradication.
So it wasn't that important at the time.
What's really needed is more intelligent systems than just capitalism. But growth and fiat money is needed. Otherwise weed all be poor. Also gold is mined from slavery of africans till today.
Human attention is the greatest currency in existence. It's the individual's attention and effort that give things value. Intermediate mediums of exchange, like gold and silver, are excellent because they're durable, relatively scarce, have a variety of uses, and are divisible. Paper currency has always, 100% of the time, ended in hyper-inflation and failure because the parasites and sociopaths end up occupying the lever of control to issue such currency, and then they control how it is issued, and to who. Thus, because we let bankers have control of the monetary system, we have created an upside down society where evil is rewarded and celebrated, because fraud, deceit, and theft are at the root of every transaction. We shouldn't even call it "fiat" currency, because it implies that they're godlike beings speaking value into existence. These "people" are detestable leeches, and that you handwave their behavior when there's literally thousands of years worth of examples of why you should never give currency control to governments or bankers flabbergasts me.
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Widur

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These "people" are detestable leeches, and that you handwave their behavior when there's literally thousands of years worth of examples of why you should never give currency control to governments or bankers flabbergasts me.
You're right about sociopaths ruling the systems and banks and I don't handwave them. But that's due to the system being evil by nature and has nothing to do with paper money. It's the other way round. They've to control the fiat money well or it would break down which would be very bad for them. So fiat money controls the leading sociopaths at least partly.
 

ArgentSeeker

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You're right about sociopaths ruling the systems and banks and I don't handwave them. But that's due to the system being evil by nature and has nothing to do with paper money. It's the other way round. They've to control the fiat money well or it would break down which would be very bad for them. So fiat money controls the leading sociopaths at least partly.
Paper money is de-facto fraud, as it's a misrepresentation of the original article it was meant to represent, especially as it pertains to America and its constitution.
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Paper money and its issuance in 1913 in America was the prequel to global war, economic depressions, and the general degradation of the country. 100 years later and the purchasing value of 1 dollar has gone down >99%. If you can't make the connection between the debasement of currency, purchasing power, captured institutions, and paper money, then you need to spend a few days reading history and economics lessons.
 

Widur

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course it's just LLMs. Even more reason not to trust it.
Cause they've no will and no agenda? Ridiculous.
Nature isn't egalitarian
I didn't say so. I said birth control, which has nothing to do with nature, is fascist, because some people aren't allowed to live for the sake of others. It's like eugenics!
Good luck creating your perfect system that caters to the billions of people that don't give a fuck about you.
There are already people taking 1000 times as much as others. Good luck changing that.
They'll create the better system themselves, when the bad system starts trashing their live. They already do.
Paper money is de-facto fraud, as it's a misrepresentation of the original article it was meant to represent, especially as it pertains to America and its constitution.
Interesting. Outdated laws in america. Don't know what's special about this?
Paper money and its issuance in 1913 in America was the prequel to global war, economic depressions, and the general degradation of the country. 100 years later and the purchasing value of 1 dollar has gone down >99%. If you can't make the connection between the debasement of currency, purchasing power, captured institutions, and paper money, then you need to spend a few days reading history and economics lessons.
Hard to take you serious. People have more money not less. Yes it's worth a hundredth part. But you got 200 times as much. This is just stupid. I am reminded of German "Reichsbürger" shit just left wing.
I am not going to waste my time here any more, so don't bother to answer.
 

Awani

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I am not going to waste my time here any more, so don't bother to answer.

Good, because you’re wrong. Create a pro-fiat thread and leave this one alone. This is about exposing the virus, not becoming infected with it.
 

Widur

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Good, because you’re wrong. Create a pro-fiat thread and leave this one alone. This is about exposing the virus, not becoming infected with it.
I shall leave you alone and should not challenge youre point of view do I get that right?
The whole idea of calling a financial system virus cause its independent from material based ties and so free to evolve. It has a smell of conspiracy theory...you should rather answer my thread :https://alchemyforums.com/index.php...ainable-by-science-at-least-on-2nd-look.8004/
I am totally ready to see beyond the veil and acceppt the world as bigger and more magical than people tend to believe, but I see more wishful thinking here than anything worthy or tries to proof what people claim. Thats cheap and the real poverty.
 

ArgentSeeker

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Cause they've no will and no agenda? Ridiculous.

I didn't say so. I said birth control, which has nothing to do with nature, is fascist, because some people aren't allowed to live for the sake of others. It's like eugenics!

They'll create the better system themselves, when the bad system starts trashing their live. They already do.

Interesting. Outdated laws in america. Don't know what's special about this?

Hard to take you serious. People have more money not less. Yes it's worth a hundredth part. But you got 200 times as much. This is just stupid. I am reminded of German "Reichsbürger" shit just left wing.
I am not going to waste my time here any more, so don't bother to answer.
In 1970 in America, one gold troy ounce was 35 dollars officially and between 37 and 39 dollars on the open market unofficially. The minimum wage was 1.60 and the average wage was anywhere between 3.30 and 4.15. Let's call the cost of gold 40 and average wage 4 dollars, for the sake of simplicity. That means, in the course of one week, a person on minimum wage could 64 dollars in a 40 hour work week, and a person with an average wage could make 160 dollars. The minimum wage worker could make the market equivalent of 1.6 troy ounces of gold, and the average wage worker made 4 troy ounces of gold. In today's dollars, comparing the price of gold, the minimum wage worker made 6956.8 (1.6 troy ounces times the current spot price of 4348) and average wage worker made 17392 in a week (4 troy ounces times 4348). In hourly measurements, that value is 434/hour and 173.92/hour for average and minimum wage workers, respectively. Compare this to today's minimum wage of 7.25/hr and the average hourly wage of 37.75. The math is indisputable.

Furthermore, even if you compared average home income from then and now vs average sales cost, you'd lose on that point as well. Average household income was approximately 8730 and the average sales price of a home was 23000, or roughly 3x the average household income. Today's average household income is 87599 and the average sales price of a home is 398000 to 410000, or approximately 4.5 times the average household income. Did we create more hours in the day to compensate for this drastic increase in cost of one of the most basic things required to live in society, a home? Ought we to work 80 hour weeks to have the same standard things, like homes and cars, our parents and grandparents had and have? Do we adopt 3rd world labor conditions and degrade our quality of living? Or, maybe, do we address the root cause of the problem, that being the debasement of currency?

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"My Son, do you feel within yourself that heroic ambition which is the infallible characteristic of the Children of Wisdom? Do you dare seek to serve God alone, and to master all that is not of God? Do you understand what it means to be a Man? And are you not weary of being a slave when you were born to a Sovereign? And if you have these noble thoughts which the map of your horoscope does not permit me to doubt, consider seriously whether you will have the courage and strength to renounce everything which might prove an obstacle to your attaining that eminence for which you were born."
 
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Widur

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Whatever you calculate, people are not poorer than they were. Even if it's true that were over the peak, it's due to inherent mistakesin capitalism. Not due to some tiny into reality calculated differences. Obvious that you want to believe it.
Self-reflect, Mark, self reflect!
 

Awani

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If there is one thing I have learned having lived half a life: socialists and communists should not be allowed within 10 feet of a calculator or a budget.
 

Dendritic Xylem

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Grab farm land while you still can, before people like Bill Gates scoop it all up.
 

Awani

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The theme of the future is streaming, leasing and renting not owning. Now it might be practical to stream or lease certain things, but be mindful that you own the essentials (gold, property) and lease the irrelevant (like Netflix).
 

Lux Natura

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In the grand scheme, nobody owns anything, except for potentially the one thing, which most people never even focus on anyway as they think it is worthless, because it's value cannot be denominated in fiat, or gold, or anything else easily tangible or tradeable. When you die, you don't take any of it with you. It's yours, to varying degrees, for a time. The themes of "streaming, leasing and renting not owning" is not just part of the future - it's part of the past. Serfdom / feudalism. All that is happening is we have entered into a new techno-serfdom / techno-feudalism. Each revolution, be it agricultural, industrial, technological, or otherwise, further enslaves, because each of these revolutions have a singular purpose behind them: the increase of productivity output, efficiency, and the development of systems of hierarchies which concentrate the wealth of the system to the top.

Each revolution has been a genetic expression originating from the virus.
 

Awani

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I disagree. I am talking about reality, not some philosophical outlook. The entire system of modern society has gone from owning to renting. This is a fact if you look into it for five minutes. And it is growing, thus it is the future.

Even I don't buy DVD's anymore or VHS for that matter like in the old days... I don't own my content as much as in the past. So, this is the new way... and it's indisputable.

My point is, when it concerns important things - not DVDs - try and own it... there is a movement that renting is better than owning property. This is a huge lie.
 

Lux Natura

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I disagree. I am talking about reality, not some philosophical outlook.
Philosophical outlooks are maps or models of reality. Your own "fiat-mind-virus" concept is itself a philosophical outlook. All expression of reality, no matter how well or poorly we understand them, are philosophical outlooks. This is inescapable, and should not provide an issue to discussion.
 

Lux Natura

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To give some more examples of what these philosophical systems are, and how they relate to things you talk about, techno feudalism / techno serfdom, is basically best understood as those technology companies who "own" a product which people use (whether free or by subscription service). In your example, netflix, which is a pay-per-use system, versus actually buying and owning the movies or shows in a hard copy. In a larger scale, it is the private companies that own the actual transmission lines on which all the data is sent back and forth for communication. You pay to use these lines (or at least someone pays). They are pay-to-play, pay-to-use, and the ownership remains with the company. Subscription services are just a layer of this cake, but behind the scenes what is happening is everything is being turned into this. It's a feature of techno feudalism, to turn everyone into a serf.

Where these giant tech companies overlap with traditional politics that spot in which develops technofascism, as these companies can use their leverage to set political and economic policy. Hence you end up with a system, in which perhaps it is no longer possible to "own" a certain thing, but you can only rent it, lease it, or pay to use it for a time, and you have no choice in this, as no options to own exist. That is the result of technofascism.

Some philosophical systems which are antifascist, and anti-technofascist, include ones like the crypto-anarchists - that same philosophical outlook that brought us things like blockchain tech and bitcoin. The whole idea is was fight the feudalism/serfdom divide of the capitalist fascists in order to create a system where people can once again own (instead of paying to merely use).

By and large, all modern fiat systems have always been an expression of technofascism, because it is the issuing authority that creates that fiat who determines how and when you can use it, and more importantly, you only have the right to use that fiat, and now own it. It is theirs, was always theirs, will always be theirs, and you merely transact with it. This is why it is illegal to counterfeit it, make your own, or destroy it, because you do not own it. If we remove the fiat system, and go back to when precious metals were used and stamped into coinage, it was still illegal to counterfeit coinage, hence the various bans on alchemy in the historical past, because those alchemist / metallurgists could potentially make amalgams that could pass for gold or silver.

If you wholly and fully "own" something, then nobody can extort a tax on your for that thing. This is why, in most places in the world, nobody truly owns their own property. The ability to collect property tax is due to belonging to the fiefdom, and your taxes paid are the obligatory vassal duties. The feudal lord (government) in most cases lays total claim to all subterranean minerals and ores, and you have a "right of use" of the surface property, by buying it, and then have to continue to pay taxes on it, because you are merely using it with permission of the feudal lord, according to their rules.

You see, the whole concept of "you don't own, you merely pay to use" is, and has been, baked into the way things are for a very long time.
 

Pilgrim

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Grab farm land while you still can, before people like Bill Gates scoop it all up.

Pointless because they are going to take it away from you in various ways in the not too distant future. They will make it untennable through land taxes or something similar.
 

Dendritic Xylem

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Pointless because they are going to take it away from you in various ways in the not too distant future. They will make it untennable through land taxes or something similar.
Land without mcmansions has very cheap taxes where I live. The taxes on my meager acre of land is under $90 per year. It could increase 100X and still be cheaper than renting an apartment. You can get even lower rates using agriculture exemptions. The feds here even offer the "Farm Optional Method" which allows farmers to earn social security credits even during low-income or net loss years. Not that social security will exist much longer. But (((they))) understand the only way to prevent elite homes from getting burned/droned by the plebs is if the food keeps flowing. That's also why the feds just increased farm subsidies from 30 billion in 2025 to over 44 billion in 2026.

I think Lux is right about feudalism. Tech oligarchs and owners of useful land become lords, while everyone else gets serfdom.

What you say is certainly a possibility. It's also possible we get a pole shift cataclysm that wipes out all gov't and the associated taxes. In that case, the smart move will be to have enough land/guns/ammo/surveillance to support and protect yourself and loved ones.

The alternative is to embrace helplessness and spend ever increasing prices for increasingly shittier slop from grocery stores. Or become a robber parasite larping as Robin Hood. I prefer to at least attempt self-reliance. Even if there's a chance of it being futile.

Farmers.jpg
 

Lux Natura

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In that case, the smart move will be to have enough land/guns/ammo/surveillance to support and protect yourself and loved ones.
Some of the people around here still use horses for 100% of their farm "power" instead of tractors, and use old iron implements to do all the prepping of the land, seeding, harvesting, etc. There is quite a community that is interested in these things. Selective logging using hand saws and horses, that kind of stuff. Of course it's a niche thing, really only available to those who have already paid off their land and aren't short for cash. We still have blacksmiths that will work by hand using coal and coke too, leatherworkers who make harnesses for horses, wagon makers, etc.

Lots of useful chemicals you can get your hands on easy, such as carbonate from wood ashes for making of soap. Making ethanol is easy to do, provided you have fruits or vegetable matters and a container to ferment them in. Ethanol is useful as fuel, but also an antiseptic. If you can make ethanol, you can make vinegar as well. Lots of local native plants have medicinal value as well. There are easy sources of nitrates, similar to what was used in the old days (extracting from top layer of soil in horse barns). Lots of locals make their own extracts, salves, jams, and many similar things to sell or trade with others.

All these things help create communities with resilience. I think wanting to do it all alone may be an enormous undertaking. For sure its going to be the people in the cities that are going to suffer the most, because they have the least amount of resilience, or capacity between themselves to produce anything. They are primarily importers and consumers of goods. Cities are basically giant work camps filled with worker housing.
 

Awani

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Capitalis
Some philosophical systems which are antifascist, and anti-technofascist, include ones like the crypto-anarchists - that same philosophical outlook that brought us things like blockchain tech and bitcoin. The whole idea is was fight the feudalism/serfdom divide of the capitalist fascists in order to create a system where people can once again own (instead of paying to merely use).

Whenever someone uses the term capitalist as a slur and grouping it with fascism, then the entire argument falls apart.

Nothing is more dangerous and disgusting than communism… and that’s how commies speak.

Capitalism is in essence anti-feudalism.

Every aspect of capitalism that seems bad is usually capitalism infected by socialism/statism.
 

Dendritic Xylem

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Whenever someone uses the term capitalist as a slur and grouping it with fascism, then the entire argument falls apart.

Nothing is more dangerous and disgusting than communism… and that’s how commies speak.

I've come to the conclusion that the type of govt or economic system can be less of a problem than the size of it. Communism/socialism has worked fine for small indigenous tribes and villages. But when the community gets so big that everyone doesn't know each other, then the leaders can engage in corruption while hiding behind a police state.

There's this idea that communism leads to "you will own nothing". Yet the Chinese have significantly higher homeownership rates than most countries, including the more capitalistic ones like America. Of course the Chinese have plenty of problems as well.

Free market capitalism (on a large scale) has a natural tendency toward ever increasing competitiveness and automation which leads to ever decreasing profit margins which leads to economies increasingly based on speculation and financialization, on top of lower quality production. But maybe robots/AI will take over production and create a new trend toward decentralization, at least in some ways. You could have a personal robot fabricate your own clothing at home instead of relying on outsourced child slave labor just to save money over buying local.
 

Lux Natura

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Capitalism is in essence anti-feudalism.
Capitalism is in essence neo-feudalism. Sure, it did away with the old historical system, but replaced it with another one that shares many of the same principles. All the defining features that you can list of feudalism have their respective expression within capitalism.

very aspect of capitalism that seems bad is usually capitalism infected by socialism
This is the "bid bad wolf" that is used to scare the ignorant voters, especially in places like the USA. Every single government in the world runs some form of socialism as part of the system of public or collective programs. In many cases its things like allowing the strong labor unions, free post secondary education, free healthcare, retirement plans, access to funds if one is out of work, the kinds of economic help available to the poor, sick, etc. In many other cases it is the system of taxation that pays for things like roads and infrastructure, public parks, and so on. Within the American system (just using that for now because it is a good example), the peak of socialism in the USA was during the years of high taxation of the wealthy and strong labor unions that created the economic powerhouse that people still have nostalgia towards. It was that era when a single working father in a factory earned enough to buy a nice house, a car, support the whole family, and they could go on small vacations every year. That all ended with the economic shifts that were started by the series of deregulations that ultimately culminated in most of their production being offshored. In the USA, capitalism killed the middle class, because the capitalists ended up having enough political power to change wide ranging policies.

Nothing is more dangerous and disgusting than communism… and that’s how commies speak.

I would argue that ignorance of different ideologies is a more dangerous thing, and sticking to a favorite ideology that one defends makes one simply a pawn or dupe of that system. There are problems with all ideologies, because none of them are put into practice in a perfect way. That is why we call them ideologies. They are philosophical constructs.

Whenever someone uses the term capitalist as a slur and grouping it with fascism, then the entire argument falls apart.

One final note. What if capitalism is actually in fact, in many cases, acting in a fascist way? This has nothing to do with what one likes, what system one thinks is best, but an honest dispassionate view of things.

Some tell tale signs of capitalistic societies becoming more and more fascist are things like the destruction of the previous labor force, such as the breaking up of unions, offshoring jobs, purposely keeping minimum wages low, banning strikes, or using cheaper labor (imported immigrants, illegal aliens). Another example is the regulatory capture, where the leaders of industry are now in positions of political power, so they are able to set governmental policies that are designed to personally benefit their own industry, such as enacting bailouts and favoritism for their own industry, or allowing them to continue existing in a monopoly. The expansion of the military industrial complex, and expansion of the surveillance state is also a sign of increased fascism.

One can see that fascism is, in essence, the movement towards removing those elements within a society that were originally sourced from socialist movements or ideologies.

The political spectrum is not merely binary - it is not merely right and left, (as defined by classical socialism on the left and capitalism on the right), but also has a vertical axis, defined by increasing authoritarianism in one dirrection, and increasing anarchism in the other. Within this plane one can find various ideological islands. Fascism is a movement towards more authoritarianism, regardless whether the ideology one is speaking of is on the right or left side of the spectrum. That is to say, both pure socialism and pure capitalism have the capacity to move towards fascism, it is not a mutually exclusive phenomenon.

Corporate autocracy, which, for example, is a system of government that can be used to describe some capitalistic societies, such as the USA, is authoritarian in nature, thus fascist. The whole of Reaganism was authoritarian. Right wing "laissez-faire" capitalism is closer to anarchism or anarchro-capitalism. Fiscal conservatives are more authoritarian and fascist than Neo-Liberals.

Here is a political compass test - 25 or so questions show where you land on the scale: https://www.politicalcompass.org/

It's helpful to understand what amounts of each of the different ideologies you actually believe in.
 

Awani

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I’m busy now… but a quick reply that will make you understand why we won’t ever agree.

Unions are evil scum and they should all be destroyed. Socialism is also evil.

Liberty or death.