Exposing the Fiat Mind Virus

[ArgentSeeker]

Savings destroy economy.

That's money market theory which they use to justify endless money printing, and it only took 10 years after debasing the currency system in the US in 1913 for the boom/bust cycle to begin in the 1920's great depression. Keynesian economics is a cancer.

 

[Widur]

We're shall growth and growth motivation come from??

 

[Awani]

So you think that if money has lasting value everyone would become Scrooge McDuck? LOL

Growth doesn’t come from government spending or artificial demand - if printing and spending money created wealth, poverty wouldn't exist.

Growth is driven by production, savings and innovation. Real growth happens when everyday business owners risk their own hard-earned money (often initially saved) to build something new and make a profit. Everyone I know who started a business did so from savings.

But I get it, the fiat mind virus is one hell of a drug.

 

[Widur]

So you think that if money has lasting value everyone would become Scrooge McDuck? LOL

Where did I say that?

if printing and spending money created wealth, poverty wouldn't exist

It doesnt create wealth, but steer economy and push it in the right moment.

Growth is driven by production, savings and innovation

Exactly. But all this need a motivation for.

Real growth happens when everyday business owners risk their own hard-earned money (often initially saved) to build something new and make a profit. Everyone I know who started a business did so from savings.

Exactly. And its more people cause theire savings are losing worth.

But I get it, the fiat mind virus is one hell of a drug.

I come to think you know shit about real drugs and addiction!

 

[Awani]

Where did I say that?

When you said: Savings destroy economy. We're shall growth and growth motivation come from?

It doesnt create wealth, but steer economy and push it in the right moment.

Oh does it, does it? LOL

Exactly. But all this need a motivation for.

I guess the human race wasn't motivated until the non-gold backed fiat system in the 20th century came into play... we could never afford endless wars back then either so that's good. Now we can afford that. And the value of your money hasn't decreased 90-95% in the last 50-70 years... none of this has happened... Dude... stop living the lie.

And its more people cause theire savings are losing worth.

Why is the savings losing value? I wonder what it could be? Hmm???

I come to think you know shit about real drugs and addiction!

I know plenty of real drugs and real addiction. If you're addicted to something, it's because of your own mind or your own actions. It has got nothing to do with the drugs. Some people can do coke when they feel like it and never get hooked, whilst other people do it one time and next week they blow dudes behind the dumpster to get enough fiat to buy more coke.

Blaming the drug is removing responsibility. Trusting government fiat systems is removing responsibility.

A sane monetary world with a sane drug policy and a sane legal system requires responsible adults... it is not a world suitable for children.

 

[Andro]

 

[Widur]

When you said: Savings destroy economy. We're shall growth and growth motivation come from?

I really cant see the cause and effect you describe.

Oh does it, does it? LOL

Well, it would if the rich guys wouldnt abuse the system in their favor. But the problem here is not the fiat money.

I guess the human race wasn't motivated until the non-gold backed fiat system in the 20th century came into play.

It was but often poverty stopped doings born from motivation.

And the value of your money hasn't decreased 90-95% in the last 50-70 years...

And the output of products and the earnings havent tripled, quadrupled since then...youre picking out single details but its a big picture.

Why is the savings losing value? I wonder what it could be? Hmm???

I dont know what you mean its a natural process if people create more wealth and do start ups from their savings.

I know plenty of real drugs and real addiction. If you're addicted to something, it's because of your own mind or your own actions. It has got nothing to do with the drugs. Some people can do coke when they feel like it and never get hooked, whilst other people do it one time and next week they blow dudes behind the dumpster to get enough fiat to buy more coke.

True, but everyone pays a prize when using coke. Just some manage to pay less and just here and then. But its bad for everybody. And the difference is NOT only the character, but the traumata and problems you carry. Drugs can be dangerous for everyone depending on situation and background.

it's because of your own mind or your own actions

Some people can do

whilst other people do

Sounds like master people thinking. People are less different than you think!

A sane monetary world with a sane drug policy and a sane legal system requires responsible adults... it is not a world suitable for children.

Yeah in a perfect world drugs wouldnt be a problem. Till then some drugs shouldnt be available.
Also, what about stupid people? Shall they die from social darwinism?
I also wonder if such a world would make that grown-up people. so wonder if its even possible to reach it!

 

[ArgentSeeker]

We're shall growth and growth motivation come from??

The same place that it came from since the beginning of time: the natural curiosity and circumstances of the human mind and soul. Since before recorded history, gold and silver were recognized as being valuable. Since records have been kept, over 6000 different currencies have been brought into and out of existence. Gold and silver remain.

 

[Awani]

Yes. Stupid people can die from their stupid actions. I’ve done a few stupid things in my life, and it’s my own fucking fault what happened to me due to those stupid actions.

I’ll answer the rest later.

 

[Dendritic Xylem]

We're shall growth and growth motivation come from??

Perpetual growth = CANCER

This obsession with constantly expanding industrialization is poisoning everybody and the planet.
Our brains and testicles contain microplastics because of our addiction to shortsighted materialism.
There are even microplastics in Antarctica which got there by travelling long distance in the atmosphere.
You can't eat fish from the ocean anymore without consuming trace amounts of various poisons.

We should put our energy toward developing sustainable systems which allow us to exist in harmony with Nature.
This will unfortunately require population control.
If you keep too many cows on 10 acres of pasture, it will destroy the pasture. Same thing applies to people.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

Perpetual growth = CANCER

This obsession with constantly expanding industrialization is poisoning everybody and the planet.
Our brains and testicles contain microplastics because of our addiction to shortsighted materialism.
There are even microplastics in Antarctica which got there by travelling long distance in the atmosphere.
You can't eat fish from the ocean anymore without consuming trace amounts of various poisons.

We should put our energy toward developing sustainable systems which allow us to exist in harmony with Nature.
This will unfortunately require population control.
If you keep too many cows on 10 acres of pasture, it will destroy the pasture. Same thing applies to people.

Today's society and human nature has shown that this is impossible. Our societies are totally governed by political decisions. Politics greatly attracts those very people who are most strongly attracted to power and materialism. Their policies strongly favour capitalist pursuits at all costs and are therefore opposed to sustainable development which means less corporate profits. The only reason they may slightly temper these policies is in order to ensure re-election. They will make empty promises and only token easements in their policies to appease the gullible. Today's society is becoming progressively more gullible since quality standards of continuing education, and thinking for one self is greatly discouraged through policies, as well as the encouraged addiction of endless hours of mindless entertainment, which robs people of the free time to study, learn and think about anything that is important.

 

[Dendritic Xylem]

Today's society and human nature has shown that this is impossible.

Agreed. I'm not optimistic about greater society in its current form. It would take a global cataclysm and small breakaway civilizations of like-minded people to achieve anything resembling my idealistic rantings. But I think that scenario has happened before on Earth and other planets.

Back to money. I like the idea of using raw food products like livestock and grains as currency. That's how civilization starts. Simple, productive, and immune to counterfeit or "coin clipping". Also, if anyone tries to inflate the supply...it reduces the cost of food instead of increasing it.

 

[Widur]

Nice ideas and I agree with the bad stuff like microplastic and that.
But without growth and all that we wouldn't have been able to support 7 billion people with just the least of life standard. If you calculate it through your ideas don't work. Also when most of the real bad shit happened we were in constant danger of total nuclear eradication.
So it wasn't that important at the time.
What's really needed is more intelligent systems than just capitalism. But growth and fiat money is needed. Otherwise weed all be poor. Also gold is mined from slavery of africans till today.

 

[Awani]

Well, it would if the rich guys wouldnt abuse the system in their favor.

They don't abuse the system. I do the exact same thing the "rich guys" do. They know the rules. Usually "poor people" are financially illiterate and cannot handle finances thus keeping them poor. It's a knowledge issuem not an abuse the system issue.

To be clear, the system is stupid. I'm just saying it's not black and white in the way you describe it.

But the problem here is not the fiat money.

If you can't see the forest for the trees, I seriously can't help you.

It was but often poverty stopped doings born from motivation.

What is poverty? Havin one job and supporting a family and owning a house like people did a 100 years ago, or having two jobs and not being able to even afford rent? What is the issue? According to you, it has got nothing to do with the debasement of the currency due to a fiat system that robs your future.

But without growth and all that we wouldn't have been able to support 7 billion people with just the least of life standard... growth and fiat is needed...

There will always be growth. Natural growth, not fake growth. If there is less money, that doesn't imply more poverty. Less money means each coin is worth more. Not that difficult. Rather than removing pennies and cents, they will be re-added. Remember in the old days, you could have a night on the town with a nickel and a couple of pennies. A non.fiat system would be LESS poverty.

What's really needed is more intelligent systems than just capitalism.

Crony capitalism and government subsidised corporations is not "captialism". What we need is non-government involved free markets.

Also gold is mined from slavery of africans till today.

Every computer and smart phone is run on coltan, mined by slaves in Africa and even if gold was forbidden and fiat was the only currency allowed you'd still fund the slavery by simply using this forum.

That has got nothing to do with a gold backed monetary system. In fact, even if the slavery continues, such a world would have less suffering in total because wars would be too expensive.

If you want to keep supporting the EXACT system that fucks you over, then go ahead.

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"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The earth belongs to the bankers. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again."

- Sir Josiah Stamp, former Governor of the Bank of England


"By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some."

- John Maynard Keynes in The Economic Consequences of the Peace


"The problem with fiat money is that it rewards the minority that can manipulate money and unintendedly penalizes the majority that responds to incentives. Fiat currency systems always fail because paper eventually returns to its intrinsic value - zero."

- Voltaire

 

[Awani]

I like the idea of using raw food products like livestock and grains as currency. That's how civilization starts. Simple, productive, and immune to counterfeit or "coin clipping". Also, if anyone tries to inflate the supply...it reduces the cost of food instead of increasing it.

I don't like that... it is not covinient. Also, while I like the archaic, I also like progress. Thus, I rather have a sound money system (whatever it might be), than carry bags of rice to get some milk.

Perpetual growth = CANCER

That's a good point. The stock market is probably a bad idea. I currently use it to for my own benefit, but in the grand scheme of things it probably is a bad concept because it requires perpetual growth no matter the cost. People talk about the AI bubble or other bubbles in the past... but the WHOLE thing is a bubble.

Their policies strongly favour capitalist pursuits...

It seems people use the term "capitalism" as a blanket term for lots of things. At its core, capitalism is private ownership of assets, voluntary exchange in a free market, and the pursuit of profit run by individuals NOT by governemnts (as is the case today).

The flaws of capitalism - often peddled by those on the left - can be easily traced to government intervention, not free markets.

- Inequality rises when central banks print money, inflating corporate assets while devaluing working-class savings.
- High costs in healthcare and housing are driven by state-enforced monopolies and zoning laws that stifle competition.
- Environmental damage occurs because governments fail to enforce private property rights, letting polluters damage public spaces without accountability.
- Labor exploitation is enabled by state bailouts and regulations that shield politically connected corporations, stripping workers of their natural competitive bargaining power.

Finite money (like gold and BTC) and free markets without goverment involvement is the cure.

Fiat systemts and government run "free" markets is the disease.

Communism is the plague.

 

[Widur]

They don't abuse the system. I do the exact same thing the "rich guys" do. They know the rules. Usually "poor people" are financially illiterate and cannot handle finances thus keeping them poor. It's a knowledge issuem not an abuse the system issue.

Its much less knowledge than resources. If you dont have money to start with, knowledge is og no use either!
Also if more have knowledge, its getting worth less.
And the clever guys or just the ones having the resources to put more tiem in find new ways yoou have to know about for earning money. So again, not knowledge, resources of time and money. Intelligence also, but mostly time and money as you can buy intelligence.

The stock market is probably a bad idea.

Its bad the way its run, dealing with whole companies, bringing them to rise or crash just by market movements. Creating bubbles.
but maybe if the state was more involved here, it could reduce this bubble creation, so I am not sure.
The basic idea of raising money and progress but making it possible for small investors to invest is not bad at all.

What is poverty? Havin one job and supporting a family and owning a house like people did a 100 years ago, or having two jobs and not being able to even afford rent? What is the issue? According to you, it has got nothing to do with the debasement of the currency due to a fiat system that robs your future.

What youre saying seems to have nothing to do with what I said. And tehre wasnt less poverty a hundred years ago!

"The problem with fiat money is that it rewards the minority that can manipulate money and unintendedly penalizes the majority that responds to incentives. Fiat currency systems always fail because paper eventually returns to its intrinsic value - zero."

The intrinsic value of gold is not much more than zero. Somethings worth is what people think it is!

 

[Dendritic Xylem]

But without growth and all that we wouldn't have been able to support 7 billion people with just the least of life standard. If you calculate it through your ideas don't work.

That's why I said it would require population control.

A big turning point in the growth dynamic was the development of the Haber-Bosch process in 1909. 19th century scientists realized the nitrate fertilizer demand would outpace the supply as world population grew. The answer was to fixate atmospheric nitrogen so we wouldn't be reliant on manure/guano. There's a really good book about it called The Alchemy of Air recommended by @solomon levi.

In 1900 the world population was much more sustainable at 1.6 billion. The Haber-Bosch process made population growth unsustainable.
The elites realized this and are doing everything they can to bring the population numbers back down to more manageable levels.
The Georgia Guidestones suggested keeping the population at 500 million.

I don't like that... it is not convenient. Also, while I like the archaic, I also like progress.

Digital currency would make sense if whale groups weren't manipulating the markets. One solution is to have digital UBI where everyone gets a set amount per year, and then that balance is deleted at the end of the year to prevent hoarding/accumulation. That helps reduce the whale group problem. I think the elites are actually working on implementing a similar system...at least for the proletariat. There's a theory that the recent aggressive push for data centers is partly to implement a new CBDC financial system to replace the US dollar. Quantum computing might create some friction though.

Gold/silver/copper is better than paper. But gives an unfair advantage to nations/communities that have access to natural deposits.
There's also the idea of using transmutation nefariously to create empires or clandestinely influence the leaders of empires.

Remember the Dutch finance guy Ronald Bernard that allegedly worked for the deep state/Illuminati/elites? It's been a long time since I watched his interview, but I think he mentioned seeing a warehouse full of gold bars to fund their agendas. I might be confusing him with someone else.

 

[Awani]

@Widur

Nope. It’s about knowledge and will. Something the victim class usually lack lots of.

The value of money has gone done circa 95%. Everything is much cheaper today, yet people can afford less with the same amount of ”money”. This is due to fiat. These are facts.

 

[Widur]

big turning point in the growth dynamic was the development of the Haber-Bosch process in 1909

That's right. Just I didn't know it was a reaction to fear of population growing.
But thing started earlier. I think they noticed somewhere around 1600 that dung is good for growth.
Hard to believe they didn't notice earlier.
Well that's what I read and looking in old books like magica naturalis it seems true.

1900 the world population was much more sustainable at 1.6 billion. The Haber-Bosch process made population growth unsustainable.

That's why I said it would require population control.

I am not sure about population control.
Isn't it the the seemingly unsolveable problems leading to true progress? Everything born from moneymaking is just improvement if you think about it.
How where computers born? WWII.
Nuclear power? Cold war.
It seems for true progress mankind has to stand close to the abyss.
Also, when was last time we didn't?
Surely some medieval period where there was nowhere real progress!
In Germany we killed more unborn babies since the sixties than soldiers died in WWII.
So population control is already there!!
I wouldn't wanna live in a population controlled world of 1 billion hippies just to be able to do trade in wholefoods and with progress and technology rationed.
Isn't this kind of egoistic??
Let earth live but people not?
Will it be your children who won't be born?
I'd rather live in a dystopic world with mankind fighting for survival than this hippie-fashism.
Sure we don't know where the route goes and have to watch out.
But there's only one way how mankind can truly evolve.
Going to the stars.
(In my opinion Venus is the only possible goal. Man can't live on Mars with 1/3g!
I can't believe they're serious! We have to terraform Venus(algae or bacteria into this superdense atmosphere, something like that). Endless energy and much closer than mars. There's no other option, Jupiters biggest moon is around as big as mars. Everyone thinks gravity doesn't matter. Then why not aim for the moon? It's just dumb. They can't be honest.
Back to theme, if you check the ground used for food production you realize we can easily nourish 70 billion people.
We just have to smarter. Smarter cities, shorter supply chains, produce wholefoods round the corner...

Digital currency would make sense if whale groups weren't manipulating the markets. One solution is to have digital UBI where everyone gets a set amount per year, and then that balance is deleted at the end of the year to prevent hoarding/accumulation. That helps reduce the whale group problem. I think the elites are actually working on implementing a similar system...at least for the proletariat.

Exactly, we need smarter economy.

Remember the Dutch finance guy Ronald Bernard that allegedly worked for the deep state/Illuminati/elites? It's been a long time since I watched his interview, but I think he mentioned seeing a warehouse full of gold bars to fund their agendas. I might be confusing him with someone else.

Nobody knows what's real and what narrative and what we're fantasizing up any more. I think where all leads to ist mostly due to our bravery.

Nope. It’s about knowledge and will. Something the victim class usually lack lots of.

They're not all equal. That's what they want us to think!
A lot, and it's always getting more, just lack money and opportunity!
Abuse, traumata, poverty and bad luck everywhere and you say its everyone's own fault.

The value of money has gone done circa 95%. Everything is much cheaper today, yet people can afford less with the same amount of ”money”. This is due to fiat. These are facts.

There's 2 sides. Income has gone up. Probably more than 20 times as much.

 

[Awani]

Income has gone up because value has gone down.

You fail to grasp what I claim. Not everyones fault. Your fault…

Your fault!

Running a business I always wanted to be anti-capitalist (whatever that means), anti-opressive and anti-corporate power. Then I found out if the workers gets such an employer they themselves turn greedy and abusive. By causality this lead me to having to use corporate power! This is just one...

alchemyforums.com

 

[Dendritic Xylem]

Everything born from moneymaking is just improvement if you think about it.

I disagree. More technology can be good up to a point. But overuse of tech and finance is leading us to a retarded and soulless state.

Surely some medieval period where there was nowhere real progress!

Medieval peasants worked fewer hours and had more free time than modern people.
I'm not saying we should return to that time. But staring at a computer 8 hours per day 'might' not be as healthy for us as being farmers and craftsman.
My idea of "progress" might be different than yours.

Isn't this kind of egoistic??
Let earth live but people not?
Will it be your children who won't be born?
I'd rather live in a dystopic world with mankind fighting for survival than this hippie-fashism.

People can have children. But sometimes intervention is needed to keep the herd healthy.
Most farmers/scientists agrees with this when talking about a population of animals. But people are special and different? That's the true egoism.
But eugenics is a sensitive subject because it can obviously have horrible consequences in the wrong hands.
Hippie fascism might work if the power is centralized to a neutral AI instead of a human dictator. Nepotistic oligarchy isn't working too well for us.
But I'm mostly a non-interventionist just philosophizing for fun. Every form of gov't controlled by people will ultimately become corrupted.
That's why I'm more interested in small breakaway communities with decentralized power structure. But maybe that's too idealistic.

 

[Widur]

disagree. More technology can be good up to a point. But overuse of tech and finance is leading us to a retarded and soulless state.

You didn't get what I meant. Of course more technology is good if used right and not just for moneymaking and producing consummate slaves.
I meant when there's dire need new stuff is discovered. E.g. computers. In times of not so dire need this technology is only improved.

Medieval peasants worked fewer hours and had more free time than modern people.

I am not sure about that! I think its the other way round.

But staring at a computer 8 hours per day 'might' not be as healthy for us as being farmers and craftsman.

Of course. There has to be some balance.
But modern sport sciences can make up for a lot in short time. Actors look like 60s bodybuilders today!

People can have children. But sometimes intervention is needed to keep the herd healthy.
Most farmers/scientists agrees with this when talking about a population of animals. But people are special and different? That's the true egoism.

I don't say uncontrolled growth was good. But the real problem is poor people have lots of children while rich hardly any. Other way round it used to be. So the real problem is elsewhere. Population control would be treatment of the symptom.

But people are special and different? That's the true egoism.

There not special. But with correct growth, meaning the intelligent growing stronger than the dumb, there'd be no problem. Although we maybe have time cure some symptoms!
With egoism I meant 500.000.000 people living in perfect world vs. 10.000.000 000 living in an imperfect. That'd be inhuman.

Hippie fascism might work if the power is centralized to a neutral AI instead of a human dictator.

Neutral AI in human sense of the words, is that even possible??

Every form of gov't controlled by people will ultimately become corrupted.

Well it depends on how you choose government.
But yeah, hard to imagine a government with enough power to do in our interest and also doing the right! Difficult.

That's why I'm more interested in small breakaway communities with decentralized power structure. But maybe that's too idealistic.

Not idealistic. How shall their children choose heir way pr reintegrate into society?
Also they'd need much to much place! If everyone did world would be overcrowded.

Income has gone up because value has gone down.

Yes, but only partly. So?
You presentation only the value going down, that's why I mentioned.

You fail to grasp what I claim. Not everyones fault. Your fault…

I grasp. But I say its not true.
System determining 80% to fail causes people to do better and better, but 80% fail anyway. Like hamsters in wheel. Horrible. But it's not true that it's their fault.
Not even the dumb ones! Cause a society needs to have a place for them, too!
You say you do better.
But what do you sacrifice for it? Your body? Your relationships?
You can't manage everything without proper starting resources.

 

[Awani]

Freedom, liberty, self-reliance > communism, statism, victimhood

 

[Widur]

Freedom, liberty, self-reliance > communism, statism, victimhood

Self reliance in a system always upping needed skills is more like social darwinism.

 

[Awani]

I have no problem if the world is divided and the self reliant freedom lovers live in one part and the retards in the other.

Also… no system… that’s the point. Since you entered this thread, the value of your fiat has decreased half a percent. Enjoy poverty.