• The migration to this new platform is complete, but there are a lot of details to sort out. If you find something that needs to be fixed make a post in this thread. Thank you for your patience!

Cyliani

Triune One

Rectificando
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 9, 2022
Messages
184
IMO the those guys were using marcasite to make sulfuric acid, and then mix the sulfuric acid with ethanol to make ether.
To do this is a pretty cumbersome and difficult process, but that’s what I think Cyliani is referring to when he speaks of the labor’s of Hercules....making ether from marcasite.

Hey Ghetto alchemist,
where do you interpret in the text of Cyliani where he is referring to the making of ethanol to mix with the sulphuric acid to make ether?
Is there a quote you can share?
 

ghetto alchemist

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
557
Hey Ghetto alchemist,
where do you interpret in the text of Cyliani where he is referring to the making of ethanol to mix with the sulphuric acid to make ether?
Is there a quote you can share?

IMO Cyliani couldn’t mention nor describe ether clearly because he still had to maintain his oath of secrecy.
He basically said he can't reveal the “name of the matter, of the Labors of Hercules and the knowledge of the Fire”.

I only see 2 clues RE ether...
> the nymph warned him of the dangers in the labour of Hercules and that he can lose his life if not imprudent.
> Cyliani told us that he suffered a major injury while performing the work which was expected to shorten his life.

Ether explosions in the lab caused by formation of peroxide’s are a real danger to all chemists working with it, even up to this day.

Fun fact: all the noteable early alchemists were making ether prior to its discovery by mainstream science.
We can now read Geber, Lully and Arthephius and see that they were clearly describing the physical characteristics of ether in their texts many years before anyone else knew anything about it.
The fact is so obvious that even Wikipedia is forced to admit it in their page about ether.
Prior to it’s discovery by science the masters held the ether recipe as a closely guarded secret of alchemy, but would openly talk of it’s properties.
And after the discovery of ether by science, the later alchemy masters all suddenly stopped describing the alchemical substance with the properties of ether....how interesting.....
 
Last edited:

Jimmy Rig

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
479
"IMO Cyliani couldn’t mention nor describe ether clearly because he still had to maintain his oath of secrecy.
He basically said he can't reveal the “name of the matter, of the Labors of Hercules and the knowledge of the Fire”.

I was reading a book last night and came across this line in an interesting section. I think it is relevant to this oath of secrecy.

"Now that you have created a thought matrix and sealed it
against the intrusion of impinging mind radiation from others,
set up either consciously (in some cases through jealousy or
ego) or unconsciously by the mass mind’s collective resistance to
progress, you must observe the third rule to protect your creative
intent and “tell no man.” This, too, is a law of precipitation—one
that allows you to circumvent concentrated beams of human
thought and feeling patterns which can be most disturbing to a
successful alchemical experiment unless certain safeguards are
activated."
 

Illen A. Cluf

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,544
Is it a relevant discussion to discuss the difference between what kind of stone can be had between the animal, vegetable, and mineral kingdoms?
For eg, a Stone can be made from feces. There are enough works out that suggest it.
Same as with a plant stone.
But can these stones transmute?
Can they fully offer medicines for longevity for the human being?
I think it would be relevant, but perhaps in a separate thread. There seems to be many types of Stone, which may be helpful medically, but not all of them transmute.

It seems to be in the mineral kingdom due to the very fixed nature of that kingdom.

Yes the alchemists mention the importance of the minerals in terms of achieving the necessary degree of fixity.

So back to Cyliani in this thread, and the other texts that have great similarities, which I have come to call "The Quartet."
Cyliani
Recreations
ICH
Palmer
The matter of two metallic natures would certainly seem to point to marcasite more so than feces.
Exposing the marcasite to the humid night air we get 'pyrite decay' - definition - When exposed to humid air, pyrite reacts with oxygen and water to create iron sulfide (the rust), corrosive sulfuric acid and harmful sulfur dioide gas.

I often found it interesting to read, in all the Quartet, they mention vitriol...
In some of them, it seems so in passing, or they don't connect it much to the context at hand.
Well... marcasite breaks down naturally in this fashion... which makes a lot of sense out of their mention of Vitriol.

Vitriol is often mentioned in reference to marcasites, but the term "Vitriol" was always used in a very vague manner. It is hard to pin down what they actually meant by that term.

And we're back to the eagles, which the Quartet so generously explain.

So in essence, there is really no getting around the labor of Hercules in slowly fixing the SM???????
Even when there is discussion of the short path, one still needs the Mercury / Alkahest and that just plain and simply takes time...
I am asking and also speaking out loud here, to myself, as I've known of this path for some time now, and have, ironically,
wasted quite a bit of time in a Herculean attempt to find another way to avoid having to do the labor of Hercules.

Doh!
The labor of Hercules is mentioned by almost al the past alchemists, so I don't think it can be avoided. Yet there are some works that suggest that the entire work can be done in a few days or even hours. I'm not sure if this means "from scratch", or if one already has a "prepared matter" to begin with. Many treatises begin with a prepared matter as though it were already found in Nature, and don't explain how it was prepared. I suspect that the preparation is what constitutes the Heculean Labor.
 

Illen A. Cluf

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,544
IMO the those guys were using marcasite to make sulfuric acid, and then mix the sulfuric acid with ethanol to make ether.
To do this is a pretty cumbersome and difficult process, but that’s what I think Cyliani is referring to when he speaks of the labor’s of Hercules....making ether from marcasite.

Interesting concept. What kind of reaction is there when ether interacts with metals?
 

Illen A. Cluf

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,544
If the human body produced coals, that which exists after all the heavenly nature is cooked from it and nourishes our body is most likely to be the most likely candidate no? It is dark, no doubt about that and I've seen pictures posted of what our matter looks like after ablution, quite dark indeed.
But does this produce "A" Stone, rather than "The" Stone? In other words, does this lead to a medicinal result, but not a matter that can transmute metals?
 

ghetto alchemist

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
557
What kind of reaction is there when ether interacts with metals?
Obviously normal ether won’t dissolve metals, BUT it should dissolve the white powder form of metals the same as ethanol does.
(Also Cyliani referred us to using gold oxide anyway, and not the metallic form.)

It’s on my bucket list to make some ether and do the test.
Unfortunately it truly is a Herculean effort to create it.
Especially WRT to making concentrated sulfuric acid, it’s a total bitch to distill no matter how you do it.

The labor of Hercules is mentioned by almost al the past alchemists, so I don't think it can be avoided. Yet there are some works that suggest that the entire work can be done in a few days or even hours
IMO that difference is due to the two separate processes of the wet path and the dry path.
 

Triune One

Rectificando
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 9, 2022
Messages
184
But does this produce "A" Stone, rather than "The" Stone? In other words, does this lead to a medicinal result, but not a matter that can transmute metals?

I've been mulling this over and I think LeoR is on to something.
Not that others have not considered this... are not considering this.
And many authors do openly mention it, as in this quote I shared earlier from The Golden Chain of Homer Part 1

If therefore , a reader has to prepare a remedy for sustaining , preserving and also lengthening his life, he has no reason , if he does
not wish to do to run to mine galleries or earth growths and animals, but he should run to himself . His own urine and excrements are powerful enough to prepare with them the most glorious medicine for himself and his neighbor , for they contain the world spirit as truly as gold and silver and the very carbuncle itself.

This path is also quite clearly expressed in the Rosicrucian texts like Thesaurum Thesaurorum, Toeltius' "Coelum"...

So... thinking out loud here.

Gold is the centrally most exalted metal in the mineral realm.
Grapes are that for the vegetable realm and
Man is that for the animal realm.

I think many of us would agree, as plenty of authors write, that Man is the Microcosm, containing everything
of the One inside himself.
So IF Man is the Microcosm (image and likeness, etc. etc)
and
IF Man is the most evolved in the animal Kingdom
and
IF Man can draw in the Astral spirit in the air...
Then, his urine and his feces can make a very nice medicine.
A fiery water and a coal digested in the bowels of the "earth."

If an alchemist is very drawn to transmuting baser metals to gold, *maybe* this is not the right path for such a person.
But if, as Ghetto alchemist states in his signature...

"Show me a stone which can cure cancer in 1 week,
and I care not whether it transmute base metal to gold."

Then how about this -

"Show me a stone from which the most glorious medicine can be made for man and his neighbor,
and I care not whether it transmute base metal to gold."
 

Illen A. Cluf

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,544
"Show me a stone from which the most glorious medicine can be made for man and his neighbor,
and I care not whether it transmute base metal to gold."

But have you considered whether or not the the actual test of transmutation of base metals to gold is the ultimate and only test to ensure that you have achieved the Stone that will also result in the path that leads to most glorious medicine that can be made?

[I mention "the path" since the achievement of the Universal Medicine actually precedes the achievement of the transmuting Stone].
 

Triune One

Rectificando
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 9, 2022
Messages
184
But have you considered whether or not the the actual test of transmutation of base metals to gold is the ultimate and only test to ensure that you have achieved the Stone that will also result in the path that leads to most glorious medicine that can be made?

I have considered this, yes.
It is a most worthy consideration.
The transmutation, therefore, is the sign that you have that Stone which can create the most glorious medicine...

If so, Golden Chain of Homer author is being somewhat misleading, to say "the most glorious."
Or...
If the Stone is made from minerals, we need a medium to ingest it. Alcohol, the mercury of the plant kingdom, works well, so that man can ingest the medicine from minerals / metals. If this is the case, would a medicine made directly from man for man not be more easily absorbed? Might that also factor into its efficacy as a medicine?

To be honest, I really don't know. This is a subtlety I have no experience or knowledge to edify.
 

Illen A. Cluf

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,544
I have considered this, yes.
It is a most worthy consideration.
The transmutation, therefore, is the sign that you have that Stone which can create the most glorious medicine...

If so, Golden Chain of Homer author is being somewhat misleading, to say "the most glorious."
Or...
If the Stone is made from minerals, we need a medium to ingest it. Alcohol, the mercury of the plant kingdom, works well, so that man can ingest the medicine from minerals / metals. If this is the case, would a medicine made directly from man for man not be more easily absorbed? Might that also factor into its efficacy as a medicine?

To be honest, I really don't know. This is a subtlety I have no experience or knowledge to edify.

Yes, you have raised some very important issues. Transmutation itself involves minerals and minerals only, whereas Medicine involves the Animal Kingdom, specifically Man. And Man ingests both the Plant and Animal Kingdom. So the question is, how to ingest the Medicine if it is of the Mineral Kingdom?

And the alchemists have seemed to have addressed that issue. The mineral aspect of the Stone mainly gets involved AFTER the Stone has progressed past the Medicine stage. Often what it involves is adding the seed of Gold (or Silver), which is a metal.

So before that, although minerals are used in the process, primarily to capture and fix the SM, the resultant Medicine itself does not necessarily contain any poisonous mineral substances, but rather a type of salt, and the amount taken is miniscule. Even if a tiny amount of iron is contained (if Marcasites are involved, they primarily contian iron), it is not poisonous in small amounts and in fact a necessary ingredient, which is found in all blood. Also, the alchemists state that the Medicine should be taken with some wine, which is the Plant Kingdom, which is the food of Man.

If we were to use Antimony, as so many alchemists suggest, then the issue of poison becomes critical. But, since we are only involving iron in potential, in its primal state, this seems to become a non-issue, which is yet another verification that iron is used as opposed to any other metallic mineral. What other, of the seven metals in total is considered as "safe" as iron in very small amounts? (consider lead, mercury, silver, gold, tin and copper). None. And yet, at most, the Medicine likely contains the most miniscule amount of iron. Any other trace minerals would be neglibible.
 

Kibric

Occultum
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jul 24, 2017
Messages
910
One tradition says that*Artemis*found a mighty herd of five Ceryneian hinds playing on the base of*Parrhasian*hill far away from the banks of the "black-pebbled*Anaurus"[1]*where they always herded. Artemis was so impressed by the hinds that she yoked four of them to her golden chariot with golden bridles, but purposely let one escape to the*Ceryneian*hill to be a future labour for*Heracles.[1]*Whilst in Ceryneia, the hind chased farmers from vineyards.[3]
She conceived the Minotaur after mating with the*Cretan Bull*while hidden within a hollow cow that the*Athenian*inventor*Daedalus*built for her, after*Poseidon*cursed her to fall in love with the bull, due to her husband,*Minos, failing to sacrifice the bull to*Poseidon*as he had promised.
Heracles shook the krotala (similar to*castanets) on a certain mountain that overhung the lake and thus frightening the birds into the air.[7]*Heracles then shot many of them with feathered arrows tipped with poisonous blood from the slain*Hydra. In some versions of this story this labour was discounted

The Mares, which were the terror of Thrace, were kept tethered by iron chains to a bronze manger in the now vanished city of Tirida[5]*and were named Podargos (the swift), Lampon (the shining), Xanthos (the yellow) and Deinos (or Deinus, the terrible).[6]*Although very similar, there are slight variances in the exact details*

Labours

Was the man an allegory for? Or did the dark vine get wrapped up in someones life?

Each Labour is coded instruction for the long way, see Exodus I think. Edit, Sorry not that was reading last night on Alchemywebsite?, cant remember the text, at the top it had a quick mention of a "brief way"

But this stood out in Exodus
gold couples with it eleven times it sends forth its seed, and is debilitated almost unto death; but the Chalybes conceives and begets a son more glorious than the Father.
 

Jimmy Rig

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 10, 2021
Messages
479
I have been shy from jumping into this too much because I have not read cyliani in depth. Silly me however life has been quite busy lately! (This is not a complaint, just being honest.)

I have read in quite a few texts that "the stone" is received by the alchemist as a gift from God and that both the educated and commoner have obtained it.

Is it possible that we are severely missing the mark?
I am not saying that we are, but it is a possibility..

I have a thought, which is not original to myself but comes from more of the spiritual alchemy side of things however I think it can be easily tied into the apparently physical lab alchemy texts.

Let's say that the whole "turning base metals or lead to gold" is in fact talking about the transmutation of man from a leaden, dull, state to a state that is "golden" or shining, spiritualized, etc. This happens via "the fire" or "secret fire" (SM) especially if we are going with the golden chain ideals (all is universal fire condensed or slowed down into various forms, Fire>Air>Water>Earth) all being essentially the same thing but rarefied or condensed to various degrees.

This is going to be a rather long post as I want to be satisfied that I have tied any loose ends in my reasoning at the moment.

If we look at the metal gold, or any metal for that matter, they can be refined into their "pure" state from a rough ore by means of fire and heat. The metalurgist can remove impurities by skimming the surface and also by means of escape of impurities into the air.

So although Gold is the king of minerals, it is not always found in this state, usually it is intermingled with other minerals, or is found among them in lesser qualities in the case of a vein which may be quite pure, but is rare comparatively to gold bearing ores which are much more common with much lower concentrations of gold.

Similarly, grapes although the king of vegetable realm need to be processed and refined to become eau de vie. Through heat of two kinds, natural heat of fermentation and intense heat for distillation to separate the "pure" spirit from the impure.

Humans, although the king of the animal kingdom, are seldom found "pure" in nature and will almost always require some degree of "refinement" by fire in order to be recognizable for what they really are. In most of humanity, the spiritual gold is found in small quantities, but can be increased through refinement via fire (spirit). Some humans are relatively pure already from birth such as holy men, saints, Christ etc.
It seems pretty plain to me that Jesus was quite capable of performing alchemical feats without any chemistry involved.

I think it is quite possible that if one (a human) succeeds in retaining their golden state or in coalescing enough spiritual fire that they will have the "medicine" within themselves to stop aging and heal any infirmities. Once this stage of stopping or reversing entropy through practising right action which would be different for each individual(not good/evil but true self in action) then the next step would be the ability to transmute aspects of or even their entire environment. Once the self has been mastered, which can only happen as a result of congruity with the all IMO then the all becomes part of the self and can also be transmuted hence the ability to change physical lead into gold.

Anyways just food for thought, I will have to read Cyliani and perhaps my perspective will change but these texts as you all know are seen differently through each ones eyes. Only one version is correct however (probably not this one). It is said that the lab work mirrors the alchemists internal work.
 

Philosophical

Rectificando
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
116
But does this produce "A" Stone, rather than "The" Stone? In other words, does this lead to a medicinal result, but not a matter that can transmute metals?

Quite possibly. I am not necessarily seeking something that turns lead into gold. I am seeking understanding and insight into nature's processes of creation. I feel there is a great mystery locked away in the human coals.

The golden chain talks of changing animals to vegetables to minerals and visa versa. What if something different is meant by the 3 kingdoms than what we think? What about the references in Hermetic Cabinet to the matter being animalistic?

I'd really like to thank everyone for the discussion on marcasites. I can see the correlations with 13 letters definitely. It is really fascinating and something I'll get to exploring along side what I am currently doing.
 

Illen A. Cluf

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,544
Quite possibly. I am not necessarily seeking something that turns lead into gold. I am seeking understanding and insight into nature's processes of creation.

I fully agree, that is also my intent. I'm not interested in transmutation other than as a test to ensure that the process and understanding followed was on the right track. It would also be wonderful to achieve a Medicine, but the real intent for me is a greater understanding of Nature, Creation, connection to Source, and our role in it.

I feel there is a great mystery locked away in the human coals.

I don't deny that. I also feel there is a great mystery locked away in the human waters.

The golden chain talks of changing animals to vegetables to minerals and visa versa. What if something different is meant by the 3 kingdoms than what we think? What about the references in Hermetic Cabinet to the matter being animalistic?
What are your thoughts on what else could be meant by the 3 kingdoms?
 
Last edited:

Philosophical

Rectificando
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
116
What are your thoughts on what else could be meant by the 3 kingdoms?

I have actually written a little bit about some thoughts I have on the Three Kingdoms here.

If you feel comfortable sharing have you worked this marcasite process at all? Did you use human waters for ablutions?
 

Illen A. Cluf

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,544
I have actually written a little bit about some thoughts I have on the Three Kingdoms here.

If you feel comfortable sharing have you worked this marcasite process at all? Did you use human waters for ablutions?

That is the part of the Golden Chain where the author interpreted his observation based on the limited knowledge they had at the time. Sure, if you place a plant seed in the mineral earth, vegetable matter will grow. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the minerals transmuted into plants.

And if you expose the earth to moisture and air, insect eggs can easily cause "animals" to hatch and crawl around. Look at the soil in your yard and you will see all sorts of ants, worms, etc. They didn't just mutate from the soil.

They did not have the microscopes that we have today and were not able to see that tiny vegetable seeds, and spores can cause vegetable matter to grow, or tiny eggs can cause insects to hatch. Other Alchemists talk about the worms that suddenly appear in corpses. We all know today that they are not a transmutation of human meat into maggots. Their observations were correct, but their interpretations were not. Other alchemists knew that the three Kingdoms were distinct.
 

Triune One

Rectificando
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 9, 2022
Messages
184
That is the part of the Golden Chain where the author interpreted his observation based on the limited knowledge they had at the time. Sure, if you place a plant seed in the mineral earth, vegetable matter will grow. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the minerals transmuted into plants.

And if you expose the earth to moisture and air, insect eggs can easily cause "animals" to hatch and crawl around. Look at the soil in your yard and you will see all sorts of ants, worms, etc. They didn't just mutate from the soil.

They did not have the microscopes that we have today and were not able to see that tiny vegetable seeds, and spores can cause vegetable matter to grow, or tiny eggs can cause insects to hatch. Other Alchemists talk about the worms that suddenly appear in corpses. We all know today that they are not a transmutation of human meat into maggots. Their observations were correct, but their interpretations were not. Other alchemists knew that the three Kingdoms were distinct.

This is not necessarily so definitive within our present-day "scientific" understanding as it may first appear. It is quite possible that matters / creatures and other small organisms morph into other matters from, what would appear to be, nothing, or nothing other than the original matter.

Have you ever encountered the topic of "pleomorphism?" How different organisms can stem from a "root" or "seed" pleomorphic organism.

Wilhelm Reich, for one, observed small living creatures stemming "out of the blue" from orgone. (I might be misrepresenting this, as its been over 15 years since I read this, but something along these lines...)

George Wiseman, of "brown's gas fame" shares a story of how "new water" (water that results from burning hydrogen/oxygen gas mix), when exposed to sunlight beaming through a jar of mineral elements, will create a sludge inside itself which contains all the minerals elements in the solution.

Michel Schiffe, of "Memory of Water" experiments, demonstrates how a totally sterile medium can grow bacteria when exposed to the vibrational frequencies of the bacteria, and cells will respond to water that is exposed to these bacteria's vibrational frequencies (homeopathic) as if the bacteria itself is present in the water.

Lots of potential growth in our understanding which is fun to consider.

I will also say, as much as I enjoy this topic and find it interesting, so wanted to chime in about it, I do think it may also be a little off-topic, and, in my opinion, not so relevant for the great discussion we're spinning right now. But it's interesting to consider.
 

Triune One

Rectificando
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 9, 2022
Messages
184
I have been shy from jumping into this too much because I have not read cyliani in depth. Silly me however life has been quite busy lately! (This is not a complaint, just being honest.)

I have read in quite a few texts that "the stone" is received by the alchemist as a gift from God and that both the educated and commoner have obtained it.

Is it possible that we are severely missing the mark?
I am not saying that we are, but it is a possibility..

I have a thought, which is not original to myself but comes from more of the spiritual alchemy side of things however I think it can be easily tied into the apparently physical lab alchemy texts.

Anyways just food for thought, I will have to read Cyliani and perhaps my perspective will change but these texts as you all know are seen differently through each ones eyes. Only one version is correct however (probably not this one). It is said that the lab work mirrors the alchemists internal work.

"Show me a way to the Internal stone for man,
and I care not whether it is even a lab process at all."

Right?
Agreed.
However, I myself wouldn't say that to follow the lab path is to be missing something.
The one can support the other. Almost how you use more of a matter to volatilize the fixed,
we can do so as well with the matters of our internal makeup.

In India and China, the yogis and Taoists went to great lengths to prepare
medicines so they could prolong their lives so they could attain to that internal state.
Lab Stone or not, it's the same internal state.
Alchemists have sought the same.
Medicine to prolong life to attain to the highest state of the human being.
 

Triune One

Rectificando
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Sep 9, 2022
Messages
184
Even if a tiny amount of iron is contained (if Marcasites are involved, they primarily contian iron), it is not poisonous in small amounts and in fact a necessary ingredient, which is found in all blood. Also, the alchemists state that the Medicine should be taken with some wine, which is the Plant Kingdom, which is the food of Man.

If we were to use Antimony, as so many alchemists suggest, then the issue of poison becomes critical. But, since we are only involving iron in potential, in its primal state, this seems to become a non-issue, which is yet another verification that iron is used as opposed to any other metallic mineral. What other, of the seven metals in total is considered as "safe" as iron in very small amounts? (consider lead, mercury, silver, gold, tin and copper). None. And yet, at most, the Medicine likely contains the most miniscule amount of iron. Any other trace minerals would be neglibible.

I don't think this is just a matter of poisonous or not, but rather is the Golden Chain of Homer principle of:

One cannot go from one extreme to another without an intermediate.

I do think science and alchemy should line up, yes, but our present scientific model, especially biomedical, is so riddled with non-sense, pseudo-science, and political and economical (greed) factors, that I am comfortable to consider ancient principles that are universal in nature, rather than needing to match up with present-day science.

I say that because I can't stand here and back this GCH principle with science. I can only say, this principle makes sense to me.
Let's say we try to take a very volatile element and mix it with earthly fixed elements, they won't merge, dissolve, or marry well. That's what I feel may also be at play.
Even if you place the mineral stone in the body, sure, it will go into the body, but without the medium of the plant kingdom to marry between the animal (volatile) and the mineral (fixed), it will not be as well absorbed and bio-available. I am sure there ARE in fact plenty of chemical examples, but I can't think of any right now. I remember reading quite a few in the Golden Chain of Homer Part 1 and 2.
 

LeoRetilus

Occultum
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
825
But feces are not black as coal and do not contain spherical objects that glitter like gold. Also, they can not really be crushed into powder.

Blackness is a state you must attain is it not? It comes from total putrefaction. Digested food(life-force released) is not putrefaction(all animals have bacteria that fix niter in their guts, this is the true source of the "breathe of life"}......also when dry you can crush it and it burns already as coal, and again its my opinion that from the common collequalism..."all that glitters is not gold", was derived from logic. I believe the texts say it contain a glimmer of gold, not that it glitters like gold. Fulcanelli even reiterated this, when he says you may already have a small quantity of gold if incinerated and ashed.
 

LeoRetilus

Occultum
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
825
Absolutely, but where do we draw the line? If we stretch the allegory far enough, we could conclude that just about anything "fits the bill" - as many do. I don't think the alchemists would have gone too far out of line with their descriptions, as there was little need to do so. "Black as tar" as many describe the coating, is not at all the same as "dark brown". They could just as easily have described the casing as "dark as the wood of an oak" leaving the allegory still open to interpretation. To go as far as to describe "brown" as "black" is just being too deceptive without purpose.

IMO, when they're describing the mine of a body, they are referring to urine, which was often used in alchemical operations. The illustration you provided even shows a man urinating. Blackness in this case is not being used to describe natural processes such as putrefaction, but in reference to the subject matter. Also, they are specifically describing "spheres" within the coal, and there are no such spheres in feces, no matter how hard you look. Instead, they are referring to spherical marcasites, which are actually found in coal mines, and which glitter like gold (but are not gold). They were also tossed out as useless, and children loved to play with them. The coal was tossed on many of the streets, and the poor had more use of coal than the rich since their homes were not as well constructed.

In terms of the micro/macro cosmic parallel, the spherical marcasites were often described as balls or planets, and are clearly depicted in many symbolic illustrations, the most common of which is the symbol for antimony. Thus in terms of diversion, antimony was used to distract practioners away from the marcasites. The symbol was also used to represent Earth.

No, I don't think elaborate apparatus is required. One crushes the marcasite and leaves it out in the Spring to collect the real matter which is SM. It is only used as a magnet (and marcasites are made of iron, which is an allegory for magnet). This is then placed in simple glass vessels and allowed to "putrefy". Thus you see there is already more than enough allegory without the need to use it to veil the feces of man. The marcasite is NOT the subject matter, but is used to attract the subject matter.

So marcasites are also hidden in a place where most would fail to look, and if found, like the miners who found them, they were discarded in a pile of rubbish. There was reason why marcasites were called "Fools Gold". There was little or no use for them at the time.

Bacteria putrefies Plant material, and Animal material, but the Alchemists constantly warn that we are dealing with minerals, not animal or plant matter. In the mineral world, what is the parallel to bacteria that putrefies minerals? It is water, air/wind and sun/heat - the three other elements. As the mineral "putrefies", rusts and crumbles, it draws in the Spirit, just as matter draws in the human or animal spirit. It is this highly volatile spirit that the alchemists sought to fix.

I think I've now revealed more about this approach than just about anyone on this forum.

I think you miss that form and function together make a name and that is the way names were given based on form and function if you wer e to study the phonetic cabala and the etmology of words it would be quite clear as it is to me and in 7 years my mind has not changed. And while you are trying to qualify everything quite specifically remember that everything is written in allegory, and you are trying to rediscover something that never was lost, only that the ego of man lost sight of as important! The very basis of life! You ignore a lot of the qualification from the masters, especially ...ICH!
 

LeoRetilus

Occultum
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Nov 30, 2009
Messages
825
Just throwing in my $0.02 that I totally agree with Illen about Cyliani referring to marcasite nodules, because I independently came to the same conclusion.

For me, it seemed a pretty obvious metaphor that digging in the ground at the roots of an oak tree meant digging for marcasite nodules.
I don’t live in France and I’m not an expert, but I always got the impression that you can find truffles in the roots of an oak tree.
And it just seems a pretty logical metaphor of the marcasite nodule for a truffle.

Also, it’s not a secret on this forum that the old timer alchemists were using marcasite nodules, Alfr busted that one open over 10 years ago.

IMO the those guys were using marcasite to make sulfuric acid, and then mix the sulfuric acid with ethanol to make ether.
To do this is a pretty cumbersome and difficult process, but that’s what I think Cyliani is referring to when he speaks of the labor’s of Hercules....making ether from marcasite.

And in the interests of sharing...I’d like to add that the very excellent analysis work in the beginning of the thread linking 3 separate texts with the common theme of producing three salts.
One of those texts mentions the second salt appearing “between two waters”.
IMO that’s a clear reference to the boundary layer between ether and water.
Also the appearance of needle like crystals in the water after cooling it down is referring to the crystals of potassium nitrate forming when it gets cooled down from hot.
So basically I think that whole “3 salt” process just means:
> make a saturated hot water solution of vivified saltpetre
> put ether on top of the solution and cool it down
> as the saltpetre crystallises there should be an effect of 3 salts forming
> assumed that this transfers the HIM component of the saltpetre into the ether because saltpetre is 100% insoluble in ether.

And then in turn, IMO Cyliani then uses the vivified ether to dissolve and augment gold oxide into transmutation stone (as I’ve already stated before on this forum).

No doubt, some of you will strongly react to what I just said.
So I remind you that Cyliani explicitly stated a need to learn formal chemistry to succeed and he also explicitly mentioned using gold oxide.
Cyliani obviously has exceptional chemistry skill just to even be able to make gold oxide, I don’t even know how to make it living in the 21st century. (I do know how to make white powder gold though, which IMO is partially vivified gold oxide/hydroxide)
IMO most alchemy processes simply use silver oxide to make transmutation stone first and then tinge it into a gold stone later, something far simpler than acquiring gold oxide.

You guys are hysterically hilarious..... I studied and wrote on this forum about marcasites for years! Real talk!I was the marcasite freak, I spent thousands of dollars collecting and crushing and processing specimens for years! Its a disambiguation of words, I gave the explanation finally above where I show excepts from 13 Letters and ICH, both in German that is where the disambiguation occurred!!

Good luck ! Especially the scientific and chemical approach, you guys are going to unlock a new form of matter and energy from....a mineral? You guys? The old ones did as well? With your means, with theirs? A multi trillion dollar facility underground bordering France and Switzerland along with the brightest minds ever are trying to do so with something as powerful as a particle accelerator? And here is life, the basis of which is spirit! Acting subtly, infinitley more powerful than matter and energy!

Food for thought. Perhaps?

Follow the paths that lead to life......
 

ghetto alchemist

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
557
Good luck ! Especially the scientific and chemical approach
Here is what Cyliani says regarding the scientific and chemical approach:
Cyliani: I would advise ... only to begin ... after having followed several courses in chemistry

LeoRetilus: And here is life, the basis of which is spirit! Acting subtly, infinitley more powerful than matter and energy!
That’s right....the magic comes from the amazing spirit of the world which makes all life possible (aka HIM).

But IMO the alchemist must still concentrate that spirit into a solvent and then use the solvent to turn a metal oxide powder into a transmutation stone.

I got that simple truth independently from my own research and analysis... but then I find that Cyliani even directly tells us to operate on gold oxide:
Cyliani: gold must be reduced to a very pure calx or oxide

LeoRetilus: I gave the explanation finally above .......
I honestly can’t easily elucidate your interpretation of Cyliani’s process.
Would you mind repeating it clearly and succinctly?
 

dan

Visita
Mysterious Stranger
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
20
If you think about it putrefaction isn't as important as the initial starting matter, remember that it is Spiritus Mundi and Astral Spirit that are the actual starting matter and man and his matter are simply the magnet, so it is the salt that needs to putrefy in the matter and if you ignore this most important step you will find yourself like the the letter from Perrad to Gerbant, where he relates...."your agent solvent is devoid of virtue". You must lay the material out during the spring during the period where the moon gives it's greatest reflection of light. Some sources say two weeks but in all actually this must continue the whole spring and into the summer weather permitting and even mostly during the fall. As Recreations states the whole matter takes an uninterrupted period of two years to gather enough salt!! This is the most important part of the pre work, if you start with nothing you end with nothing! When you practice this even for a couple of weeks you will start to see the salt crystalize and grow after it dries out. This is in actuality the true philosophical"sublimation" that we talk about, of course the one of the final eagle gives the most brilliant and pure salt, we clean our mercury till it no longer leaves a tail. . The reason for this isn't a question so much of purity but separation to make the mercuric!! Until it becomes the definition of it! We do this by separating the sulfur from it and this leaves it hungrier for it's counter part, at each fermentation the salt drops it's sulfur and we collect this black earth for the work of the Philosophical sulfur!! It does not make it "dirty" only "balanced" to get any work out of nature we must first unbalance it. The other option to waiting two or three years is to do more quantity at once. Letters say to collect 100lbs. I'd also watch my diet!! Shoot for quality over quantity of raw mass! In this regard.....eat plenty of legumes!!! Lol I've have my reason for saying that tied up both in history, tradition and actual contemporary real science and the Science of Hermes.
hello leo.
The final sections of the Pharnlacopoea show Glauber’s immersion in esoteric alchemy in later life. His revelation of a “secret sal armoniack” (ammonium sulfate) was followed by the revelation of an even grander “most secret sal armoniack” (ammonium nitrate?). The latter was claimed to be the celebrated alchemical substance that Adam brought out of the Garden of Eden. Man thus carried within himself the means to transform the natural world—but in such a loathsome place that his pride kept him from finding it. In spite of the deliberate obscurity, it seems likely that Glauber prepared his “most secret” salt by combining ammonia and saltpeter, made from excrement and urine.
greetings dan-