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I'm working with a matter very similarly at the moment.

I would not be surprised if the matter Leo Retilus is describing is the same matter referred to by Bacstrom in his "Aphorisms and Process".

Although Bacstrom's text seems to imply "blood", this may not necessarily be the literal case.
 

Jimmy Rig

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I'm working with a matter very similarly at the moment. Just curious how long it took for you to see the changes you describe. IMO, a very fruitful avenue for research. Luckily the miasma doesn't actually last that long..

Okay so a few weeks indoor to putrefy and then probably a month or maybe 6 weeks max or so outdoors. This was almost 3 years ago so the exact time frames are lost on me..

I am pretty sure I fasted before collection too so that may or may not make a difference
 

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The whiteness also spread along the surface first, not sure if this helps.
 

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I would not be surprised if the matter Leo Retilus is describing is the same matter referred to by Bacstrom in his "Aphorisms and Process".

Although Bacstrom's text seems to imply "blood", this may not necessarily be the literal case.

I think we're all likely using the same material as I am using the combo LR suggests, Jimmy had only mentioned two substances from the same root and so I can only imagine he's using something similar or the same as myself. I'll have to have a look at Bacstrom though. Thanks Andro :)

Okay so a few weeks indoor to putrefy and then probably a month or maybe 6 weeks max or so outdoors. This was almost 3 years ago so the exact time frames are lost on me..

I am pretty sure I fasted before collection too so that may or may not make a difference

The whiteness also spread along the surface first, not sure if this helps.

Excellent, thanks JR. I have been putrefying the matter for a bit longer than a month, maybe closer to 3. It looks like a homogenous soup and have since let air into it for about 5 days or so. Surprisingly there is very little smell, although I guess that is an indication that the putridness is starting to change it's nature :D
 

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I would not be surprised if the matter Leo Retilus is describing is the same matter referred to by Bacstrom in his "Aphorisms and Process".

Although Bacstrom's text seems to imply "blood", this may not necessarily be the literal case.

This has been one of my favorite tractates for many years now. Couldn't find another thread on it, maybe I should start one?
 

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I suspect I am making too runny of a pancake, what ratios of flour to water do others use?
 

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Remember the weight and ratio of nature and what comprises a philosophical day!! We must not drown our matter, but instead allow it to dessicate fully before re-wetting. It will drink readily and create a hiss sound if you listen carefully, notice everything and open your senses!

Look at a philosophical day....the earth breathes, as do all living thing. You are dealing with the spirit and life of the world! At night she opens and allows inspiration of the spirit "Spero sperabo" this is when we were, the matter is thusly opened to accept the spirit just as plants do at night. When the sun comes up it dessicates the soil or earth around the "root" fully to allow oxygen to uptake into the plant!! The sun dried it to full and crystalizes into a salt!! That is the closing or enveloping and instill a philosophical sulfur from the sun. The opening and closing, the breathe of the world'. This is a philosophical day and congruent in every way to the 50 naeids and the washing of the Aegean stables, these are the Labors of Hercules.

Read the scholles from Recreations to guide, they are indispensable, and use it to create a sound precedent and method which you will follow, it is paramount that you understand nature!!

I love you all!! ❤️❤️❤️
 
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I had typed out and thought I had sent a reply in this thread already a few days ago but seems like it mustn't have gone through properly..anyhow:

Thanks Leo, funnily enough it was Recreations that made me think more about my ratios. From my reading of a few different manuscripts I figured a more wet preparation would be more ideal for the initial putrefaction. Golden chain gives a ratio in later chapters that leads to a more watery soup initially, Hermetic Cabinet says there must be a deluge initially. I figure this is for an initial putrefaction turning out bread and water into sourdough. I'm wondering whether letting my water turn to vinegar and then adding bit by bit as spoken of in Recreations and GC and Hermetic Cabinet.

How do others approach this bread making?
 

LeoRetilus

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I had typed out and thought I had sent a reply in this thread already a few days ago but seems like it mustn't have gone through properly..anyhow:

Thanks Leo, funnily enough it was Recreations that made me think more about my ratios. From my reading of a few different manuscripts I figured a more wet preparation would be more ideal for the initial putrefaction. Golden chain gives a ratio in later chapters that leads to a more watery soup initially, Hermetic Cabinet says there must be a deluge initially. I figure this is for an initial putrefaction turning out bread and water into sourdough. I'm wondering whether letting my water turn to vinegar and then adding bit by bit as spoken of in Recreations and GC and Hermetic Cabinet.

How do others approach this bread making?

If you think about it putrefaction isn't as important as the initial starting matter, remember that it is Spiritus Mundi and Astral Spirit that are the actual starting matter and man and his matter are simply the magnet, so it is the salt that needs to putrefy in the matter and if you ignore this most important step you will find yourself like the the letter from Perrad to Gerbant, where he relates...."your agent solvent is devoid of virtue". You must lay the material out during the spring during the period where the moon gives it's greatest reflection of light. Some sources say two weeks but in all actually this must continue the whole spring and into the summer weather permitting and even mostly during the fall. As Recreations states the whole matter takes an uninterrupted period of two years to gather enough salt!! This is the most important part of the pre work, if you start with nothing you end with nothing! When you practice this even for a couple of weeks you will start to see the salt crystalize and grow after it dries out. This is in actuality the true philosophical"sublimation" that we talk about, of course the one of the final eagle gives the most brilliant and pure salt, we clean our mercury till it no longer leaves a tail. . The reason for this isn't a question so much of purity but separation to make the mercuric!! Until it becomes the definition of it! We do this by separating the sulfur from it and this leaves it hungrier for it's counter part, at each fermentation the salt drops it's sulfur and we collect this black earth for the work of the Philosophical sulfur!! It does not make it "dirty" only "balanced" to get any work out of nature we must first unbalance it. The other option to waiting two or three years is to do more quantity at once. Letters say to collect 100lbs. I'd also watch my diet!! Shoot for quality over quantity of raw mass! In this regard.....eat plenty of legumes!!! Lol I've have my reason for saying that tied up both in history, tradition and actual contemporary real science and the Science of Hermes.....
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Letters say to collect 100lbs. I'd also watch my diet!! Shoot for quality over quantity of raw mass! In this regard.....eat plenty of legumes!!! Lol I've have my reason for saying that tied up both in history, tradition and actual contemporary real science and the Science of Hermes.....
But the mineral matter that Letters talks about cannot be the liquid animal matter that you are referring to, can it?
 

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Thank you Leo, good food for thought. I also think the matter is somewhat putrefied already and would contain what we need. So you're saying in your experience the vulgar Astral spirit we feed our matter also doesnt need purifying? Looks like I'm going to collect some more matter. It's late in the season to be doing it here but at least Autumn is right around the corner and we still get full moons regardless.

But the mineral matter that Letters talks about cannot be the liquid animal matter that you are referring to, can it?

Other side of the same coin. I have just finished the 1st letter and can see how the matter we're talking of could be used just fine based on the descriptions of the operations.
 

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But the mineral matter that Letters talks about cannot be the liquid animal matter that you are referring to, can it?

Illen I haven't had the pleasure of many exchanges on the public forum but please take a closer look at post #272 and have a look at the excerpt from the two books, ICH explains in a manner from the insight of the German translation into what marcz(marcasite) actual is, our clay, or The Clay of the Wise. This red earth that God made man from is! I know despised and disgusting right? "But he chose the lowly things of this earth and the things that are not to nullify those that are" also from ICH, quoted from memory but it actually lives in my heart. The other matter is liquid and enough has been written about it's preparation alone to make an alkahest, and perhaps so but it lacks a sulfur to make a true universal Philosophic Stone. We need the "mineral" matter! The coal or clay of the wise.

Also this question of mineral versus living material, we seek though an bacteria "that fixes niter" what it actually does is release the life force,chi, prana, spiritus Mundi whatever you please to call it. And releases it to go back into other life forms , namely plant, animal and......transition state metals!! Here is where the story of the angel telling Mohammed about the baetykus stone that, "fell from heaven" it's not a meteor it's a pun on words! It's the very stine kisses and veneratd in Mecca, a ouce if caca!!: It's like a mineral coal hard ca Sound indicative of the Greek khi for fire from heaven, yes because it happens through a radical and complete digestion of nature, think of a bog now take away some water and dry it up, what is it? The belly of the earth is the macrocosm to the belly of man, hence Saturn and The oak , read Greek mythology here, Saturn swallowed all of his children. I'd invite readers to re read the Phonetic Cabala thread. Fulcanelli's did one thing for me, he showed me where my focus should be!! Not on mineral matters but on the etymology of words and their hidden and veiled meaning,it took me the better part of 5 years to discover it. Now look here: Cabala Mineralis

cabmin01.jpg


Two minerals and one root! The true subject is Man as he is fed and sustained in life and death as simply an animal, made to consume other living things for survival, it's is simply recycled through the three kingdoms. At death man is separated from the indwelling living spirit and it goes into other firms of life. I don't not pretend to know or surmise what happens to humans after that. My guess is whatever is left of the intellect when the brain dies goes someplace or...it doesn't!
 

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Now a riddle.....in the above Cabala Mineralis picture we see a bone sticking out of the man pointing to something we find on the ground and yet also fertilize the plant with? Why knee deep though? Now look at this:

[image link broken]

Some say to dig a hole knee deep and do what with it? Place some "clay" in it? Before running water?
 

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Here is a quote from Hermetic Cabinet that I think is interesting in light of what is being discussed on this thread.
That there are few people who have understood how the stone of the philosophers is made, and will never understand it, if God, by a singular grace does not reveal it to them or some philosophers. For who could imagine that what men seek so eagerly for sp long is nevertheless enclosed in a matter which they trample underfoot, and which they throw through the streets, which they always have before their eyes, which is found in garbage and in the manure.

Theres actually a few relevant references throughout the text.

Now a riddle.....in the above Cabala Mineralis picture we see a bone sticking out of the man pointing to something we find on the ground and yet also fertilize the plant with? Why knee deep though? Now look at this:

[image link broken]

Some sayto dug a hole knee deep and do what with it? Place some "clay" in it? Before running water?

I cannot claim to fully understand this image. The knee must be bent? Would make sense considering where it comes from. I think I remember a text saying to urinate on it and cover but there are a lot of references to similar processes and I cannot remember specifically where I saw it.
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Illen I haven't had the pleasure of many exchanges on the public forum but please take a closer look at post #272 and have a look at the excerpt from the two books, ICH explains in a manner from the insight of the German translation into what marcz(marcasite) actual is, our clay, or The Clay of the Wise. This red earth that God made man from is! I know despised and disgusting right? "But he chose the lowly things of this earth and the things that are not to nullify those that are" also from ICH, quoted from memory but it actually lives in my heart. The other matter is liquid and enough has been written about it's preparation alone to make an alkahest, and perhaps so but it lacks a sulfur to make a true universal Philosophic Stone. We need the "mineral" matter! The coal or clay of the wise.
I did go back and look at post #272 and the two books, but there is some confusion. The Thirteen Letters and the Third Part of the Golden Chain are very specific as to their view of the starting matter, and I strongly believe it is not urine as you suggest, but a specific obvious mineral found in some coal mines. Certainly the Cabala Mineralis does indicate urine as the Magnet, but that differs from the other texts. I strongly beleive that these different texts are suggesting different processes to be used to atract the SM, so I see little connection to them other than the resultant SM.
 

LeoRetilus

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I did go back and look at post #272 and the two books, but there is some confusion. The Thirteen Letters and the Third Part of the Golden Chain are very specific as to their view of the starting matter, and I strongly believe it is not urine as you suggest, but a specific obvious mineral found in some coal mines. Certainly the Cabala Mineralis does indicate urine as the Magnet, but that differs from the other texts. I strongly beleive that these different texts are suggesting different processes to be used to atract the SM, so I see little connection to them other than the resultant SM.
I do not suggest it is urine! Urine is used to wet and potentiate the niter by its continual application during the spring nights,these are the 50 naeids or ablutions, each wetting and drying is a philosophical day as I explained above. Your mine is the mine of man! His colon! The microcosmic of the complete digestion of nature. Your colon already contains cyanobacteria it fixes niter from the air, these are the breathing exercises in Tai chi and Mutus Liber. When you visit your bathroom,outhouse or Privy(mine) outhouse! You employ the flick of the wrist...do you not? Coal =Caca
 

Illen A. Cluf

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I do not suggest it is urine! Urine is used to wet and potentiate the niter by its continual application during the spring nights,these are the 50 naeids or ablutions, each wetting and drying is a philosophical day as I explained above. Your mine is the mine of man! His colon! The microcosmic of the complete digestion of nature. Your colon already contains cyanobacteria it fixes niter from the air, these are the breathing exercises in Tai chi and Mutus Liber. When you visit your bathroom,outhouse or Privy(mine) outhouse! You employ the flick of the wrist...do you not? Coal =Caca

But feces are not black as coal and do not contain spherical objects that glitter like gold. Also, they can not really be crushed into powder.
 

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If the human body produced coals, that which exists after all the heavenly nature is cooked from it and nourishes our body is most likely to be the most likely candidate no? It is dark, no doubt about that and I've seen pictures posted of what our matter looks like after ablution, quite dark indeed.

Glitters like gold because it contains in itself the seeds of our gold. They are somewhat round.

It can be powdered once its oily/slimy nature is dessicated. Does the Hermetic Cabinet not tell us that the whole operation of alchemy under all its various names is but one operation? Solve at coagula.

We exude two natures, one oily and one salty. They come from one root and yet are two. Coagulating them together until they are inseparable and give birth to their son.

Of course the matter we talk of here is only the materia secunda as I understand it. It is not the prima materia which can never be found above or below the earth ready to use but must be prepared by art.
 

LeoRetilus

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But feces are not black as coal and do not contain spherical objects that glitter like gold. Also, they can not really be crushed into powder.

Do you not think that to a large part everything descriptive of our matter is allegorical, veiled in some philosophical tennant rather than overtly literal? I mean you seem still confused when I've made it quite clear, maybe not as blatant as Paracelsus did, perhaps, still. When we speak of nature and it's blackness, we are speaking of nature's "natural processes". And most important of any allegories is the micro/macro cosmic parallel, because it's how we relate the planets to the human body and are able to extrapolate the mineral from the mine of man. Coal is made in the belly of the earth the same way that feces is made in your own belly! The angels that's appeared to Mohamed and explained to him how this stone descended from heaven, slowly and subtly! It's is the very air you breath and the very food you eat. Has nothing to do with freaking matter or physical science!! It is the force of life! Aren't thee planets baren and with no life? Mars? If this wasn't all enough Fulcanelli's Ariane thread of the Phonetic Cabala takes us all the way there. Pull back those veils and open the eyes, everything you need is before you and in you. You really think the ancients in their caves and wilderness abodes had clean lab ware and spectrograms and the ability to discern from materials? To create a science? To measure even qualitative or quantitative? It is nothing of the science of the physical world and no particle accelerator nor lab procedure can net an exotic form of matter, which is life!! Or is this Science Of Hermes the very basis of life?

God was alive and he gave his spirit to animate all living things, for a dying world, I'm still trying to figure out the why but I have a really good idea! If God is spirit and not matter! And spirit wars continually with the flesh of the physical world but no where as much as inside the intellect of man, and this is why he hid it in a place that the proud would never seek to look, because the very ego of man, who separates man from God and his own indwelling spirt!

When we say something has a glimmer of gold it means hope not glitters like gold. It means that it is the seed of gold,because it is the life force and this is why gold is precious in the first place, it was once a living thing. Look at Revelations, at the end there will be only on physical matter! All All the street and walls of the Holy City will be made of a gold as clear and as pure as glass!

The funny thing is feces is burned as a fuel source, what's really the difference from coal? Look at the putrefaction, what putrefies a thing if not a bacteria? This particular one fixes niter in the colon and also in the earth, in fact all living things have a symbiotic relationship with the bacteria in their gut! It releases the life force from the living thing so that you can feed off it's spirit! It does the same thing near the fields of the earth to produce a kinda niter that fertilizes the earth in the spring. It's really the simplest thing in the world! And to get to the blackness of coal does take some work, but nature does it. Look at a bog once again in relation to a dried and burning coal seam, or any petroleum for that matter. I'd it not all rotting and purified organic, once living material?
 

LeoRetilus

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If the human body produced coals, that which exists after all the heavenly nature is cooked from it and nourishes our body is most likely to be the most likely candidate no? .

Indeed, well done!
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Do you not think that to a large part everything descriptive of our matter is allegorical, veiled in some philosophical tennant rather than overtly literal?

Absolutely, but where do we draw the line? If we stretch the allegory far enough, we could conclude that just about anything "fits the bill" - as many do. I don't think the alchemists would have gone too far out of line with their descriptions, as there was little need to do so. "Black as tar" as many describe the coating, is not at all the same as "dark brown". They could just as easily have described the casing as "dark as the wood of an oak" leaving the allegory still open to interpretation. To go as far as to describe "brown" as "black" is just being too deceptive without purpose.

IMO, when they're describing the mine of a body, they are referring to urine, which was often used in alchemical operations. The illustration you provided even shows a man urinating. Blackness in this case is not being used to describe natural processes such as putrefaction, but in reference to the subject matter. Also, they are specifically describing "spheres" within the coal, and there are no such spheres in feces, no matter how hard you look. Instead, they are referring to spherical marcasites, which are actually found in coal mines, and which glitter like gold (but are not gold). They were also tossed out as useless, and children loved to play with them. The coal was tossed on many of the streets, and the poor had more use of coal than the rich since their homes were not as well constructed.

In terms of the micro/macro cosmic parallel, the spherical marcasites were often described as balls or planets, and are clearly depicted in many symbolic illustrations, the most common of which is the symbol for antimony. Thus in terms of diversion, antimony was used to distract practioners away from the marcasites. The symbol was also used to represent Earth.

No, I don't think elaborate apparatus is required. One crushes the marcasite and leaves it out in the Spring to collect the real matter which is SM. It is only used as a magnet (and marcasites are made of iron, which is an allegory for magnet). This is then placed in simple glass vessels and allowed to "putrefy". Thus you see there is already more than enough allegory without the need to use it to veil the feces of man. The marcasite is NOT the subject matter, but is used to attract the subject matter.

So marcasites are also hidden in a place where most would fail to look, and if found, like the miners who found them, they were discarded in a pile of rubbish. There was reason why marcasites were called "Fools Gold". There was little or no use for them at the time.

Bacteria putrefies Plant material, and Animal material, but the Alchemists constantly warn that we are dealing with minerals, not animal or plant matter. In the mineral world, what is the parallel to bacteria that putrefies minerals? It is water, air/wind and sun/heat - the three other elements. As the mineral "putrefies", rusts and crumbles, it draws in the Spirit, just as matter draws in the human or animal spirit. It is this highly volatile spirit that the alchemists sought to fix.

I think I've now revealed more about this approach than just about anyone on this forum.
 

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No, I don't think elaborate apparatus is required. One crushes the marcasite and leaves it out in the Spring to collect the real matter which is SM. It is only used as a magnet (and marcasites are made of iron, which is an allegory for magnet). This is then placed in simple glass vessels and allowed to "putrefy". Thus you see there is already more than enough allegory without the need to use it to veil the feces of man. The marcasite is NOT the subject matter, but is used to attract the subject matter.

So marcasites are also hidden in a place where most would fail to look, and if found, like the miners who found them, they were discarded in a pile of rubbish. There was reason why marcasites were called "Fools Gold". There was little or no use for them at the time.

I think I've now revealed more about this approach than just about anyone on this forum.

I would agree and much appreciate your clear revelation here Illen.
I had been following your back and forthing with Andro on the Golden Chain of Homer Part 3 thread, especially the last few posts.

It seemed you were speaking against the third part, or perhaps, dubiously,

Originally Posted by Illen A. Cluf
The third part seems entirely bogus. [...] Since the Rosicrucians seemed to have a hand in the later development, it is possible that they prevented the third part from reaching the general public because of what it contained.

And it not being written by the same author as the first, and that author of the first that so clearly stated the matter, which brought my mind into question about what you thought of marcasite, as that is the matter that Part 3 truly and clearly reveals. It certainly does check off many of the boxes and I am happy you are speaking about it clearly like this.

It would seem there are many paths to the Stone...
Feces, Marcasite. These may be in the top of the charts as starting matters. But the question is, which one do we want to start with? Which makes matters easier, and more abundant?
And, one still requires knowledge of the rest of the path, of the principles, of what we're doing.

I have considered dung / humanure for some time.
Speaking of Golden Chain of Homer, he even states it clearly -

If therefore , a reader has to prepare a remedy for sustaining , preserving and also lengthening his life, he has no reason , if he does
not wish to do to run to mine galleries or earth growths and
animals, but he should run to himself . His own urine and excrements are powerful enough to prepare with them the most glorious
medicine for himself and his neighbor , for they contain the world
spirit as truly as sgold and silver and the very carbuncle itself. But
you must separate the excessive moisture from them and put the pure
constituents together. When it is still moist , draw it off in B .M. ,
and you will find at the bottom a treasure above all treasures for
your health.
And he (GCH) also states -

'But that the medicines, both for men and metals, are easiest
and quickest found in concentrated form. N,B, in the realm of the
subterranean creatures (the mineral kingdom) , in that our Brother
Homerus is quite right, as those will be convinced who carefully
heed what is extensively discussed concerning this matter in the
"Compass der Weisen", part II, paragraph I.
GCH Part 1 page 49

There are so many authors that point to the mineral kingdom for where we must begin our
journey to the Stone. That is why I do think that feces can make a most noble medicine for man's health,
but not necessarily the Stone itself. Or perhaps one might make a stone, but not the same as one will get
via the mineral path.

Toeltius' "Coelum Reseratum Chymicum " also shares a path to 'the' or "a" stone via feces, and also shares a path
following the use of the "firestone" which is another word that was used for marcasite... as it was used to light fires...
 

Illen A. Cluf

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I would agree and much appreciate your clear revelation here Illen.
I had been following your back and forthing with Andro on the Golden Chain of Homer Part 3 thread, especially the last few posts.

It seemed you were speaking against the third part, or perhaps, dubiously, it not being written by the same author as the first, and that author of the first that so clearly stated the matter, which brought my mind into question about what you thought of marcasite, as that is the matter that Part 3 truly and clearly reveals. It certainly does check off many of the boxes.

To be be even more clear, I have mentioned the expression 'this approach" several times. I don't subscribe to there being a single approach to the Philosophers Stone. Thus I was trying to clarify my understanding of "this approach". There might be similarities in other approaches used by alchemists, but often more modern approaches can accomplish a result in a few steps that may have taken many steps and different products to achieve in earlier approaches. The one thing in common is the Spiritus Mundi, but there are more than one way to attract it, some much more efficient than others. Thus if one uses a less efficient approach, isn't that considered as a "different" approach?

Regarding Part 3 of the Golden Chain, if you read it very carefully there can be litle doubt that it was written by someone other than the first two parts. The wording, philosophy and understandings are totally different. That is not to say that there might not be value in Part 3, and also that Part 3 may have been a deliberate attempt of diversion. It seems fairly certain that Part 3 was written by a Rosicrucian while the first 2 parts were writen by someone not necessairly associated with the Rosicrucians. The Rosicrucians were known to destroy texts that were too revelaing and distort other texts that were also too revealing. They felt that grand secrets were not to be disclosed to the general public.

The Thirteen Secret Letters were a direct spin-off from the third part of the Golden Chain. There can be no doubt whatsoever. All these parts were either very secret and happened to be released to the public by chance, or were released in a deliberate attempt to confuse the reader in thinking that the subject matter was something different than what it actually was. So IF we assume that these Letters and the third part WERE accidentally released, then that is what my interpretation entailed. I'm not saying it is the right approach, but rather that it is the interpretation intended by these works.

If you go back to other earlier treatises considered to be legitimate, they often stated that ONLY minerals should be used, not vegetable or animal matter. One could argue that feces is a type of mineral, but now we are playing word games, and we know that word games can be used to explain almost any matter in existence as the subject matter. Just make a list of all the subject matters that have been put forward! There will be dozens of such matters, all fitting some symbols, or allegories. If you read carefully, the alchemistis were fairly consistent in some respects, and it is those consistencies that one should focus on. They have constantly denied that such things as feces are the subject matter. One must be clear in their understanding of the difference between the subject matter and the other matters used to attract or develop the subject matter. Even Fulcanelli stressed that there were "helpers" in the alchemical process.

None of this helps us get any closer to the true understanding. But with even study and practice one quickly learns that there is a natural process involved which defeats understanding and which only Nature can accomplish, and another process that involves the alchemist and simple processes. The natural process involves a deep understanding of the laws of Nature, which can only be accomplished through long periods of observation and a certain amount of revelation. These understandings are often hinted at in the philosophical parts of treatises which are often ignored or dismissed for the more practical parts of the treatises. These philosophical parts often mention the heavens, spirit, stars, Moon and Sun and their influences. What they are hinitng at is the Spiritus Mundi, the true matter of the Philosophers Stone. Yet it is not a matter and thus the seemign contradiction. The spiritus mundi cannot be "captured" like any material object. Thus they describe various "magnets" that can be used to attract it under certain conditions and times of the year. Even once it is attracted, it can dissipate very readily, as it is extremely volatile. It must be progressivley "fixed" through at least seven eagles, before it can be contained and worked further.

So, getting back to the approach mentioned in the Thirteen Letters and the thrid part of the Golden Chain, there is absolutely no doubt that they are talking about spherical marcasites found in coal mines. They actually are found in coal mines, although likely they are not as common today as they were centuries earlier. They did not consider these marcasites to be metals, such as iron, but precursors to the metals, or the matter from which metals derived durign their development. Maybe in terms of today's chemistry they were naive, as marcasites ARE largely composed of iron, but they worked these marcasites directly from the mines, exposed them to the "heavenly influences" and made sure they were not exposed to rain or Sun. Has any chemist actually tried to work marcasite in that manner? Who knows what unknown process will work on that combination of matter to change its properties, or absorb other volatile substances not known to chemistry?

So, I doubt very much they were talking abot human feces. I think they actually meant a certain type of marcasite, whether in a deliberate attempt to confuse, or, if the documents were meant to be concealed (not overly likely), then as a secret process known to few. The question is: were the "secret letters" ACTUALLY secret, or were they MEANT to be revealed. That makes all the difference.
 

Triune One

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To be be even more clear, I have mentioned the expression 'this approach" several times. I don't subscribe to there being a single approach to the Philosophers Stone. Thus I was trying to clarify my understanding of "this approach". There might be similarities in other approaches used by alchemists, but often more modern approaches can accomplish a result in a few steps that may have taken many steps and different products to achieve in earlier approaches. The one thing in common is the Spiritus Mundi, but there are more than one way to attract it, some much more efficient than others. Thus if one uses a less efficient approach, isn't that conasidered as a "different" approach?

Yes, it was clear to me that you were not implying this is THE one approach...
Rather, LeoR did seem to be extolling feces as being THE approach.
That's what I was also getting at.

The Rosicrucians were known to destroy texts that were too revelaing and distort other texts that were also too revelaing. They felt that grand secrets were not to be disclosed to the general public.

I wonder if they even began the trend in alchemy to cover up the truth?
This does point to another topic, other than "Cyliani", so no need to address it here. I am just surmising.

If you go back to other earlier treatises considered to be legitimate, they often stated that ONLY minerals should be used, not vegetable or animal matter.

Yes. There are many.
Is it a relevant discussion to discuss the difference between what kind of stone can be had between the animal, vegetable, and mineral kingdoms?
For eg, a Stone can be made from feces. There are enough works out that suggest it.
Same as with a plant stone.
But can these stones transmute?
Can they fully offer medicines for longevity for the human being?

In other words, where can we get the highest form of the Stone?
It seems to be in the mineral kingdom due to the very fixed nature of that kingdom.

One could argue that feces is a type of mineral, but now we are playing word games, and we know that word games can be used to explain almost any matter in existence as the subject matter.

Or that the salts in the feces satisfy the "mineral" aspect of the feces.

Just make a list of all the subject matters that have been put forward! There will be dozens of such matters, all fitting some symbols, or allegories. If you read carefully, the alchemistis were fairly consistent in some respects, and it is those consistencies that one should focus on. They have constantly denied that such things as feces are the subject matter. One must be clear in their understanding of the difference between the subject matter and the other matters used to attract or develop the subject matter. Even Fulcanelli stressed that there were "helpers" in the alchemical process.

So back to Cyliani in this thread, and the other texts that have great similarities, which I have come to call "The Quartet."

Cyliani
Recreations
ICH
Palmer

The matter of two metallic natures would certainly seem to point to marcasite more so than feces.
Exposing the marcasite to the humid night air we get 'pyrite decay' - definition - When exposed to humid air, pyrite reacts with oxygen and water to create iron sulfide (the rust), corrosive sulfuric acid and harmful sulfur dioide gas.

I often found it interesting to read, in all the Quartet, they mention vitriol...
In some of them, it seems so in passing, or they don't connect it much to the context at hand.
Well... marcasite breaks down naturally in this fashion... which makes a lot of sense out of their mention of Vitriol.

These understandings are often hinted at in the philosophical parts of treatises which are often ignored or dismissed for the more practical parts of the treatises. These philosophical parts often mention the heavens, spirit, stars, Moon and Sun and their influences. What they are hinting at is the Spiritus Mundi, the true matter of the Philosophers Stone.

Thank you for that.

Yet it is not a matter and thus the seeming contradiction. The spiritus mundi cannot be "captured" like any material object. Thus they describe various "magnets" that can be used to attract it under certain conditions and times of the year. Even once it is attracted, it can dissipate very readily, as it is extremely volatile. It must be progressivley "fixed" through at least seven eagles, before it can be contained and worked further.

And we're back to the eagles, which the Quartet so generously explain.

So in essence, there is really no getting around the labor of Hercules in slowly fixing the SM???????
Even when there is discussion of the short path, one still needs the Mercury / Alkahest and that just plain and simply takes time...
I am asking and also speaking out loud here, to myself, as I've known of this path for some time now, and have, ironically,
wasted quite a bit of time in a Herculean attempt to find another way to avoid having to do the labor of Hercules.

Doh!
 

ghetto alchemist

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Just throwing in my $0.02 that I totally agree with Illen about Cyliani referring to marcasite nodules, because I independently came to the same conclusion.

For me, it seemed a pretty obvious metaphor that digging in the ground at the roots of an oak tree meant digging for marcasite nodules.
I don’t live in France and I’m not an expert, but I always got the impression that you can find truffles in the roots of an oak tree.
And it just seems a pretty logical metaphor of the marcasite nodule for a truffle.

Also, it’s not a secret on this forum that the old timer alchemists were using marcasite nodules, Alfr busted that one open over 10 years ago.

IMO the those guys were using marcasite to make sulfuric acid, and then mix the sulfuric acid with ethanol to make ether.
To do this is a pretty cumbersome and difficult process, but that’s what I think Cyliani is referring to when he speaks of the labor’s of Hercules....making ether from marcasite.

And in the interests of sharing...I’d like to add that the very excellent analysis work in the beginning of the thread linking 3 separate texts with the common theme of producing three salts.
One of those texts mentions the second salt appearing “between two waters”.
IMO that’s a clear reference to the boundary layer between ether and water.
Also the appearance of needle like crystals in the water after cooling it down is referring to the crystals of potassium nitrate forming when it gets cooled down from hot.
So basically I think that whole “3 salt” process just means:
> make a saturated hot water solution of vivified saltpetre
> put ether on top of the solution and cool it down
> as the saltpeter crystallizes there should be an effect of 3 salts forming
> assumed that this transfers the HIM component of the saltwater into the ether because saltpeter is 100% insoluble in ether.

And then in turn, IMO Cyliani then uses the vivified ether to dissolve and augment gold oxide into transmutation stone (as I’ve already stated before on this forum).

No doubt, some of you will strongly react to what I just said.

So I remind you that Cyliani explicitly stated a need to learn formal chemistry to succeed and he also explicitly mentioned using gold oxide.

Cyliani obviously has exceptional chemistry skill just to even be able to make gold oxide, I don’t even know how to make it living in the 21st century. (I do know how to make white powder gold though, which IMO is partially vivified gold oxide/hydroxide)
IMO most alchemy processes simply use silver oxide to make transmutation stone first and then tinge it into a gold stone later, something far simpler than acquiring gold oxide.