• The migration to this new platform is complete, but there are a lot of details to sort out. If you find something that needs to be fixed make a post in this thread. Thank you for your patience!

Crowdfunding Translations

Illen A. Cluf

Hermes Trismegistus
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
1,591
There are always assholes. Why not include a list of the Patrons in the finished work? At least something of a carrot.

Great idea! I think that the sponsors are an important part of the finished product, and deserve to be recognized.
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
Great idea, Dev! I think that the sponsors are an important part of the finished product, and deserve to be recognized.

while the PERK in this case will be the finished book it certainly is doable to include the patrons on one thank-you page.

However, they will also be visible for as long as the crowfunding platform exists on that platform.

-sam
 
Last edited:

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
Crowdfunding translations

I have been looking into the technical aspects of this and found a solution that would cost in its "simple" version 200$ and in the more elaborate version that allows for more (but IMO in our case unnecessary) options 500$. Both require a certain setup of the server which I already have in place so my guestimate is one or two workdays to set it up.

That is not too much, even if it fails to work in the long run and only practise will show how much administrative work the individual project will be.

I have a pet script, namely the "Die 7 heiligen Grundsaeulen der Ewigkeit - by AdaMah Booz" -the seven holy pilars of eternity- that I would propose to translate as a companion of the Naturweg and the 13 letters.

When Naturweg was first published I got (from a member of Adam Mcleans forum) a list of aliases under wich I.C.H. also wrote - and this was one of them.

I have already transcribed the book and published the transcription thru BoD in Germany. I believe it to be of quite some value to the researcher of the Fulcanelli/I.C.H. line.

http://www.amazon.de/sieben-heiligen-Grundsäulen-Ewigkeit-Zeit/dp/3848224909/


But before I dive into server-updates and the like I would like some feedback of who would "sponsor" such work in the spirit of "crowdfunding".

And if others have their own pet projects, I would like to know about those too.

-sam
 
Last edited:

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,757
Administrative Post

Hi Everyone,

This thread got quite derailed/off-track in relation to its original/intended topic, and gradually devolved into a crossfire and interpersonal feud, which started to reach personal levels and mutual accusations of an increasingly personal nature (whether 'founded in reality' or not - I don't know, nor do I really care).

So, the respective 'flaming' posts have been 'wholesale' archived for now, and, as/if time allows, posts/sections of a less personally offensive nature will be inserted into relevant threads, if/where such threads exist.

Not sure when this will happen, as the mods don't have all/every day to read/check everything that is posted and to manage various thread topics if/when they get derailed.

So, please continue here on the topic of crowdfunding translations, and leave the personal issues out, preferably focusing more on agreeing on a system/platform first, and only later discuss potential texts and translators. In other words, I would say: Let's build the foundations first, before we argue who decorates the penthouse and how.

PS: Please do not reply to this post, as it is an administrative 'intervention' and as such, not open to discussion.

Thank you!
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
preferably focusing more on agreeing on a system/platform first

OK, in this spirit:

If WORDPRESS, a free blogging software, is already present on the server the following CF software IMO offers the most bang for the buck. I am aware of a few free solutions who need a lot more nibbeling with the code to do what one wants - and that is a time factor. Given my amount of time I want to spend and the learning curve I would have to endure this is NOT an option for me, but may well be for someone with more programming skills and time at hand:

http://ignitiondeck.com/id/ignitiondeck-pricing/

of those 3 options the middle one seems adequate. The cheap one does not supply membership options which I find essential, and the delivery of digital content could come in handy too. The ENTERPRISE version offers no real advantage for us IMO unless each and every person wanting a book translated also wants to learn how to manage such a crowdfunding endevor (which as I understand it is the job of the platform admin, and it is mainly what he gets paid for with his percentage of the cake).
In any case, should the need for the ENTERPRISE option arise an upgrade is always possible with little extra trouble.

As I said elsewhere I think a dedicated and independent operator is preferable to a group of operators and dedication to one group/forum for the aforemetioned reasons.
There are at least 3 big alchemy platforms who would likely participate if it is kept neutral. what I DONT want is to create a splitting of these precious resources and any real competiton in the very small field of alchemy should be avoided at all costs. It is hard enough to envision any kind of success as all those who have published in this field will confirm.

This software allows for (none free but mostly cheap) add-ons like facebook integration, additional payment platforms and such which is a great plus, as we cannot know what may become useful in the future. It also seems well established with a fairly good userbase, so it likely will not disappear overnight and the support along with it.

Also: "Themes" can be purchased, in the range of 50-100$ which support certain fields of intersts, like church donation, music distribution, social services to name a few. I may find one that fits our purpose better than the default delivered with the base package but havnt yet looked in depth.

-sam
 

Awani

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
9,922
sam said:
of those 3 options the middle one seems adequate.

Why not use a site that is for free (no nibbeling required)... usually they take about 3-5 % as a fee once the campaign is funded.

Also this is a small niche. Why need a platform? Why not just set up a PayPal and then crowdfund by word of mouth, sharing on FB, emailing everyone you know. Make it more direct and personal. Not sure how much money you need but if you spend 150 dollars on the platform alone well that could have paid many hours of translating.

sam said:
I would also suggest to make the printed version EXPENSIVE rather than cheap. I have observed that people who know the value of this work are willing to shell out 50 or even 100 bucks for a book whichs translation, if done solely for them, would cost 20 times that money. The cheap characters will never pay that kind of money (unless they create a mafia style cooperation - but thats far fetched). Thats saves us from "uploads" indefinitely.

When the translator has been paid just let it go for free. There can always be a LULU copy that people can get for a price just to cover the cost of LULU.

If you want to make money on it after the people who has already done the work has been paid, then I think you should invest in it yourself and do it like a business. If it is not a business don't treat it as one, if it is... do, but then don't do crowdfunding unless everyone reaps the profits... which is guaranteed to cause a major headache.

The point was to be able to read alchemical works that are in a different language, that is it. Why complicate things?

:cool:
 
Last edited:

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
Why not use a site that is for free (no nibbeling required)... usually they take about 3-5 % as a fee once the campaign is funded.

the specific ones take more like 5-10% and the general ones are of no use for us (see below)

Also this is a small niche. Why need a platform? Why not just set up a PayPal and then crowdfund by word of mouth, sharing on FB, emailing everyone you know. Make it more direct and personal. Not sure how much money you need but if you spend 150 dollars on the platform alone well that could have paid many hours of translating.

that has been done, the results are in, it does not work.
and 150 bucks get you nowhere with a good translator.

The MAIN point to have a dedicated platform is this: the admin of that platform does not just get his % for making it available like the big platforms do, he is also responsible for making each new project KNOWN to those who may have an interest. In the big wide world that is not needed, and also almost impossible, but for small niches this is done all the time thats why chuches and social clubs have their very own CF sites. If you use a big one then you also have to learn whom to approach, and that goes for each single individual who wants something translated, it is easily 20% of the work, if not more.


When the translator has been paid just let it go for free. There can always be a LULU copy that people can get for a price just to cover the cost of LULU.

in a perfect world that would be ideal, alas we dont live in a perfect world. in this world people want to be paid for their work, and the only way to get a good translation any cheaper is to leave the rights with the translator so he can later make it into a book and hopefully get some more sales on the open market.
It may be possible to have a special rule to release the work after X years (as mentioned before, e.g. 5 or 10).


If you want to make money on it after the people who has already done the work has been paid, then I think you should invest in it yourself and do it like a business. If it is not a business don't treat it as one, if it is... do, but then don't do crowdfunding unless everyone reaps the profits... which is guaranteed to cause a major headache.


But CF IS a business, it is used foremost and first by businesses to get funding that would not get any from banks. thats the whole idea. so where is the headache.
Unless you are willing to spend your time for free and do free work for all of us, thats the way its done: business. Now there can be businesses with certain say sympathetic rules towards a certain interest group, or in other words, if I myself like alchemy I will likely give those who want alchemical translations a special treat, i.e. less money. But it remains a business. There is nothing wrong with it. Even if alchemy is only a hobby for you - everybody with a hobby finances numerous businesses if he collects stamps, books or model cars, it makes no difference.

The point was to be able to read alchemical works that are in a different language, that is it. Why complicate things?

because it has been tried without and found not to be working.
 

JDP

Hermes Trismegistus
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
1,990
Once again, speaking from years of experience in this subject, there is only one way that has withstood the test of time and worked:

1- An adequate translator who is fluent in both the source language (German, Arabic, Latin, etc.) and the target language (in our case, English) and is willing to work on "unusual" subjects like alchemy/chymistry is located (this might take YEARS of testing translators until one is found) and who does not ask for exaggerated translation rates (0.01 to 0.03 $ per word translated is fine, more than that and it starts to get prohibitive even when several people pitch in to cover the costs)

2- People have to come forth stating that they are interested in the translation of any given text and will pitch in to help cover these costs

3- The person who finds the translator, or perhaps someone else assigned to assume the role of coordinator, if need be for someone with more familiarity with the literature of alchemy/chymistry and its specialized language/vocabulary, has to discuss any problems/mistakes that may be found in the first submitted translation with the translator and attempt to correct/clarify as many of them as is possible for a final more polished translation

4- A word count is made (this is very easy to do nowadays thanks to Microsoft Word's handy "word count" feature) of this final more polished version of the translated text and the translator paid his fees (this requires risk on the part of the person coordinating the project, as the initial money to pay the translator has to come from his own pocket; I have assumed this role myself a bunch of times, and yes, sometimes I end up paying the shares of some dead-beat bums who do not keep their word to pitch in to help cover the costs. Fortunately, the majority of people are not like that and do keep their agreements to share in the costs.)

5- The shares per person are submitted to the person coordinating the translation project, preferably through a quick and secure medium, like PayPal (sometimes I have received shares from contributors in the form of money orders or even cash via regular mail, but most people nowadays have access to PayPal accounts, so they prefer this method)

6- The translation is distributed via email among all those who contributed their share for making the translation happen (dead-beats who do not submit their shares are carefully noted, black-listed and of course banned from ever pretending to participate again in such projects as they are a threat to the whole effort and can actually end up costing the coordinator of the project some money from his own pocket)

PS: This exact same method also has worked very well in helping acquire photocopies/scans of rare and difficult to find books, articles or university theses on alchemy/chymistry.
 
Last edited:

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,757
Scan & Copy Protection

If anyone is interested :cool:

Unscannable Books by Jasmine Raznahan
[link broken]

Also, the following technique (first video on the playlist) is used in Hollywood when handing out confidential scripts, to prevent them from being 'leaked out' :)


I must admit the book designs are both interesting and entertaining :)
 

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,757
Since nothing ever happens until one or more people actually take initiative, I've been doing a bit of 'plotting, scheming and conspiring'' behind the scenes to check for possibilities to create a crowdfunding platform for the translation of alchemical texts. In principle, it is intended to work with a variety of languages and a number of different translators.

However, before we get ahead of ourselves, I would like to see if there is any actual interest, expressed in actual texts.

That's why I've created this spin-off thread, to 'test the waters', so to speak: Translation Suggestions
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
In the meantime I have purchased the Ignition Deck CF "solution" - unfortunately its far from a solution, its basically a overpiced half baked product with rudimentary support. and although I am into "computers" for 3 decades now I am pulling out hair over this program.

In other words, it will take a little while until it runs like "advertised" :)
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
I have been considering a simple solution, like the paypal donation function combined with a simple html page. That may still be an option because it can be realized fast and almost serves our needs, almost only because the real CF solution has a few gimmicks that make it easier to manage once more than one or two translations are happening simultaneously (which may or may not happen). So give me some time here. The average needed for a "normal" i.e. purely commercial site to be built with this tool seems to be 3 month to one year, depending on complexity and funds.
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
heads up:

OK, the ACF (Alchemy Crowd Funding) site is nearing completion - of course there will always be enhancements and add-on but the basic functionality is there and only a few smaller quirks need to be fixed.

-sam
 

Ghislain

Thoth
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
2,494
I have been half following this discussion and have to admit it has gone a little over my head.

What are the benefits of crowd funding as opposed to sponsorship apart from spreading the burden of cost?

What happens if a crowd funds something that never comes to fruition, how are those funded held to uphold their offer?

Just for information...

Crowdfunding

Some Schemes funded by Crowdfunding...

Electric Eel Shock, a Japanese rock band in 2004 raised £10,000 from 100 fans (the Samurai 100) by offering them a lifetime membership on the band's guestlist. Two years later, they became the fastest band to raise a US$50,000 budget on SellaBand.

Franny Armstrong later created a donation system for her feature film The Age of Stupid. Over five years, from June 2004 to June 2009 (release date), she raised £1,500,000.

In December 2004, French entrepreneurs and producers Benjamin Pommeraud and Guillaume Colboc, launched a public Internet donation campaign to fund their short science fiction film, Demain la Veille (Waiting for Yesterday). Within a month, they managed to raise €17,000 online, allowing them to shoot their film.


Seed Accelerators

Seed accelerators are fixed-term, cohort-based programs, that include mentorship and educational components and culminate in a public pitch event or demo day. While traditional business incubators are often government-funded, generally take no equity, and focus on biotech, medical technology, clean tech or product-centric companies, accelerators can be either privately or publicly funded and focus on a wide range of industries.


Y-Combinator

Y-Combinator is one such Seed Accelerator...

As of May 2013, Y Combinator had funded over 500 startups. The number of startups funded in each cycle has been gradually increasing. The first cycle, in summer 2005, had eight startups. In the summer 2012 cycle, there were more than 80. Y Combinator subsequently reduced their class size down to less than 50 with their winter 2013 batch, but as of summer 2014 is back to more than 80.

Some of the better-known funded companies include Scribd, Reddit, Airbnb, Dropbox, Disqus, Stripe.

Paul Graham has stated that 37 of over 500 start ups have a valuation of over $40 million.

Paul Graham noted at the Global Mobile Internet Conference that Y Combinator startups have a combined value of more than $13.7 billion. In a 2014 blog post, Altman updated these numbers, noting that the total market cap of Y Combinator companies is over $30 billion, with portfolio companies having raised over $3 billion, and that 3 companies are worth over $1 billion.

I apologise if some of my questions have already been covered.

Ghislain
 

Dendritic Xylem

Invenies
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Messages
474
Thanks Sam for putting the time into building a site. It is very much appreciated.
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
I have been half following this discussion and have to admit it has gone a little over my head.

What are the benefits of crowd funding as opposed to sponsorship apart from spreading the burden of cost?

What happens if a crowd funds something that never comes to fruition, how are those funded held to uphold their offer?

you questions will be addressed in the faq page of the CF site once it is published.
Please be patient, it will take a bit longer as expected.

-sam
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
Thanks Sam for putting the time into building a site. It is very much appreciated.

Thanx a bunch. much appreciated.

Unfortunately a severe bug came up yesterday that questions the functionality of the ACF site. I hope that the support people can and will handle it although support there is slow and often not very effective.
I guess it will just take a little longer.
In the meantime if anyone feels like doing a bit of spell-checking on that site for me, that would be great. pm me if you are so inclined.

-sam
 
Last edited:

Ghislain

Thoth
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
2,494
In the eantike if anyone feels like doing a bit of spell-checking on that site for me, that would be great. pm me if you are so inclined.

Sam, I have looked but can't find the link to the site...could you send me the link please.

Ghislain
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
Sam, I have looked but can't find the link to the site...could you send me the link please.

Ghislain

thats because it has not been published. It is not fully functional, as mentioned we are struggeling with one severe and a few smaller (design related) bugs.
If you want to help with spell-checking that would be great, I will pm you the URL but please do not publish it (yet).

-sam
 

Ghislain

Thoth
Patron of the Arts
Honorable Meister
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
2,494
Sam I would love to help spell check, but wouldn't it be easier to run it through a spell checker?

I would like to see what you have done with the site though, if that would be ok :confused:

Ghislain
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
Sam I would love to help spell check, but wouldn't it be easier to run it through a spell checker?

I would like to see what you have done with the site though, if that would be ok :confused:

Ghislain

It has been run thru a spell checker but there are errors this simple device built into wordpress does not catch.

anyway, this has now to wait as i was just made aware that for crowdfunding different rules at paypal apply than for any other business. This will delay the going public futher I am afraid as I have to clear our operation with paypal first and they may not OK it in which case I have no plan B (yet).

If you like legaleze have a look for yourself:

[link broken]


and its getting worse, although we likely will never have to deal with funds this big here :)

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/crowdfunding-s-secret-enemy-is-paypal/1100-4743/

it would be funny if it wasnt so sad:

http://consumerist.com/2012/01/03/p...urchased-violin-instead-of-return-for-refund/

I am now investigating stripe for fund processing. looks pretty good so far. another delay though.
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
I would like to see what you have done with the site though, if that would be ok :confused:

Ghislain

well, no can do, once the genie is out you cant put it back :)
but it really is just an empty framework, the projects (translations) will give it flesh. right now it looks like an ebay page with no product :)))
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
To keep you guys updated, one biggie was solved today - but one other remains. In the meantime issues with paypal are also getting resolved so the time is not altogether wasted.
ETA : another 2 weeks ....

anyone wanting to submit a project can start collecting data for it. 2 weeks is not that much time....:rolleyes::cool::D
 

sam

Terrae
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Jan 19, 2012
Messages
89
Good news: Got " conditional approal" by Paypal today. That means we could start using the CF system, and as long as no f*ckups happen or they find out I'm in reality a mafia godfather laudering cash its OK. <kidding>

So now one bug in the system remains to be fixed, plus a few additions need to be made to the pages explaining the stuff and then we are good to go ...
 

Andro

Alchemical Adept
Magus de Moderatio
Patron of the Arts
Hermetic Pilgrim
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
7,757
Great!

Now we need text suggestions for translation, in which more than a small number of people may be interested.

If anyone has such suggestions, please post them in the appropriate section of this sub-forum.

When the CF site/platform will be publicized, I assume it will contain the suggested 'Ground Rules'/'Terms of Engagement'/etc...

I really hope it works out!