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Bismuth and Golden Rosicrucian Method to Attract and Collect the Spiritus Mundi

alfr

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Hi Thoth
I don't think it is we are working on a commentary of what it is but it's difficult to translate propery it seem to be salts prepared in a special way from bismuth.
More later as its very important to understand the text well before work commences.

Hi Illen, Solomon, Thot. Pleroma. an every one

very very thank garvolt2002 for all the translation

About the question that matter is used in this instruction about magnesia-bismuth and the acttract with one special manipulation of it the spiritus mundi etc.etc.

NOW SO i put here a pages of one essay-introductory about alchemy and the various matters of the Thesaurun Thesaurorum that there are in the translation in italian version of the edition meditereaenee la via della vera Alchimia this version is one translation of the first book there is the partial translatio of the THESAURO THESAURORUM in german by Archarion :

entitled: von wahrer Alchemie, Die Bereitung desm Steins der Weisen im Innen und Aussen in Theorie und Praxis mit dem Testament der Bruderschaft des Gold- und Rosenkreuzes, Verlag Hermann Bauer, Freiburg im Breisgau, 1967 by Archarion,

(we made of the thesauro thesaurorum ( as i have say in many my post ) with our group Agape Prometeo a one edition almost integral in the 1989 made by one comparative translation between the various vesion of these manuscripts of this precious tesaure of this original and traditional and very secret manuscript of the internal and reserved operativity alchemical of the german golden RC a one almost integral traduction titled: thesarum thesaurorum testamentum Testamenti Fraternitatis Rosae et Aurea edition Agape Prometeo milano 1989 italy all the NEW translaion now arrived in french and english are derived from pdf of this our translation -as all can see- )

SO in the italian secondary partial translation of edition mediterranee: la via edella vera Alchimia la preparazione della pietra filosofale interiore ed esteriore il testamento dei dei Rosa Croce d'Oro by Editions Mediterranee by Archarion Roma italy 1994

SO : there are one very interesting essay-introductory about alchemy and the various matters of the Thesaurun Thesaurorum by the autor Archarion ( This essay-introductory about the alchemy by Archarion there is also in german version of the 1967 Verlag Hermann Bauer, Freiburg im Breisgau, ) - but this (i am sorry) interesting essay-introductory is only in italian-

SO i have found about magnesia-bismuth some page very interesting and i put here ( here the first page after translation it i put more) and i put here the original italian and a version translation ( good) in englsh and i hope MAYBE that this first page of MAYBE clarification by this essay-introductory by my friend Archarion MAYBE can help as and put more deep the study and maybe the exprimentation of this method with special salt exstract by the some varietes of the bismuth (as we can see: BISMUTHATE OR BISMUTOSPATO in italian in book is BISMUTITE O BISMUTOSPATO).for attract spiritus mundi etc

translation in english of the page 108 (on magnesia-bismuth) by edition mediterranee of the book la vera alchimia by Archarion

But the real classic subiectus artis and the vitriol of the wise and the Lion green the dragon green taken from the philosopher's black earth, magnesia or lead black of the wise. This vitriol is not sulphate of iron or copper, (as the lead is not the lead or antimony, or common or one of the their minerals) but a greenish salt extracted in a certain way by two particular varieties of a mineral crude of bismuth, THE BISMUTHATE OR BISMUTOSPATO (in italian in book is BISMUTITE O BISMUTOSPATO).
( note by alfr here my friend Archarion made refers to the instructions of the Thesaurum thesaurorum on magnesia-bismuth that follow )
Use this mineral is use this mineral is most advantageous not only because NOT ONLY BECAUSE JUST A FEW LIBRE (while to obtain from these materials requires a sufficient amount of salt transport tons of earth or hundreds of gallons of rainwater), but also because it has within it the seed of less universal ; so- wanting or having to do it-we can achieve our goal also without use the metal gold.


original version in italian page 108 (on magnesia-bismuth) by the edition mediterranee of the book la vera alchimia by Archarion

Ma il vero classico subiectus artis e il vetriolo dei sapienti e il leone verde il drago verde ricavato dalla terra nera filosofale , magnesia nera o piombo dei sapienti .Questo vetriolo non è il solfato di ferro o di rame, ( come il piombo non è il piombo o antimonio comune o uno dei loro minerali ) ma un sale verdastro estratto in un determinato modo da due particolari varietà di un minerale grezzo del bismuto , LA BISMUTITE O BISMUTOSPATO. Usare questo minerale è PIU VANTAGGIOSO NON SOLO perché NE BASTANO POCHE LIBRE ( mentre per ottenere da queste materie una quantità sufficiente di sale occorrono mezzi quintali di terra o centinaia di litri di acqua piovana ) ma anche perché esso ha dentro di sé il seme universale inferiore ; per cui- volendolo o dovendolo fare – possiamo raggiungere il nostro scopo senza usare l’oro metallico .

(sorry all for my bad englis)

my best regarsd alfr
 
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Pleroma

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what about this book...
Toeltius, Johann Georg:
JG Toeltii, The world-famous Philosophical Coelvm Reseratvm Chymicvm Or Philosophical Treatise Wherein is not just the matter and hand grips, What and how the lapis Philosophorvm In the pre-and after-work, but also how from all four kingdoms of nature, is as astral-Animal-Vegetable and mineral rich, noble and invaluable tinctures and Medicamenta, both to maintain health and life, as well as improvement and Transmutirung to produce the imperfect metals, shewed offenhertzig, those lovers of true Hermetic philosophy love ausgefertiget

its in German...you can download it here... [link broken]

its also in rams but you cant really read it..its in script.
 

Illen A. Cluf

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But the real classic subiectus artis and the vitriol of the wise and the Lion green the dragon green taken from the philosopher's black earth, magnesia or lead black of the wise. This vitriol is not sulphate of iron or copper, (as the lead is not the lead or antimony, or common or one of the their minerals) but a greenish salt extracted in a certain way by two particular varieties of a mineral crude of bismuth, THE BISMUTHATE OR BISMUTOSPATO (in italian in book is BISMUTITE O BISMUTOSPATO).


Thanks alfr. So, is my understanding correct that the author is stating that the mineral is not philosophical bismuth, but actual vulgar bismuth?

Thanks,
Illen
 

Illen A. Cluf

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what about this book...
Toeltius, Johann Georg:
JG Toeltii, The world-famous Philosophical Coelvm Reseratvm Chymicvm Or Philosophical Treatise Wherein is not just the matter and hand grips, What and how the lapis Philosophorvm In the pre-and after-work, but also how from all four kingdoms of nature, is as astral-Animal-Vegetable and mineral rich, noble and invaluable tinctures and Medicamenta, both to maintain health and life, as well as improvement and Transmutirung to produce the imperfect metals, shewed offenhertzig, those lovers of true Hermetic philosophy love ausgefertiget

its in German...you can download it here... [link broken]

its also in rams but you cant really read it..its in script.

Thanks Pleroma, but I wish I could read it.
 

alfr

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Thanks alfr. So, is my understanding correct that the author is stating that the mineral is not philosophical bismuth, but actual vulgar bismuth?

Thanks,
Illen

Hi Illen and every one

Yes he say that but i do not never try this so i read as all you this indication about magnesia-bismut so now we must all together investigation and maybe made some experimentation about this.
I put of this book more pages translation about more indiction on magnesia-bismuto in future.

my best regards alfr
 

Moshe

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Hi Illen and every one
Yes he say that but i do not never try this so i read as all you this indication about magnesia-bismut so now we must all together investigation and maybe made some experimentation about this.
I put of this book more pages translation about more indiction on magnesia-bismuto in future.
my best regards alfr

Hello Alfr,
Thanks for all your sharing and your efforts for the group.

I think we are not going to find an alchemical manuscript with the prima materia magnet clearly written.
We have to consider all the qualities that are described by this matter. Think of what RogerC has often said about it -
that is the mother of metals. Would this be any different?
It is not yet a mature metal. That is my thinking. It is not crude bismuth, as much as I love and adore bismuth - it's my favourite metal.
I wish it was bismuth. It is a Saturn. It's non-toxic. It's diamagnetic. It creates the Sign of the peacock with very little fire. However...
I would like to explore the following... along the lines of what Solomon Levi has shared:

"frequently found at Schlackenwald in Boemia"
The mines in Schlackenwald were tin mines amongst granite.
Personally, when i see argentite I am reminded of argillaceous earth,
that is: clay.

Clay, to me , doesn't fit the criteria spoken of in this document.
However, I like the line of thinking - what do we find in the following mines:

Sassonia dans la Selva Ercinia. is... the following place:
Brocken, Wernigerode, Harz, Germany
Just to the East of Harz National Park in Germany... (you can look at in on a Google map)
(in that document, it says that the Prince of the area of Sassonia (Saxony) - guarded this and you needed to know someone to get it - it was so high in demand. (also because it has the metal silver in it)

Here are more places mentioned in France that have this mineral:
Close to S. Béat, un Gur excellent ou écume d'or.

here we see mentioned again the name GUR - so, it is looking less and less likely that it is actually bismuth... or anything mentioned under an actual name.

Dans le comté de Foix, dans la montagne Cazeret dans la mine d'or le minéral de bismuth le plus beau. In the Foix County, on Mount Cazeret, in the gold mines, the most beautiful bismuth mineral.

Près de la petite ville Sech, une magnésie supérieure à celle du Piémont.
In the little town of Sech, a "magnesium" superior to the one found in Piemont.

Dans les mines à Lourdat mucus d'or, mater d'or et Gur d'or en grande quantité.

A De Couson, il y a une magnésie délicieuse pour l'art.

Au Languedoc à Tournon, dans les mines d'or de l'endroit, une délicieuse magnésie (Minera de Bismuth. Ms Darmstadt) bismuth.


this is also in the gold mines - i am assuming it is in the vulgar gold mines, not philosophical gold mines, as discussed earlier between True Puffer and myself here.

Dans les Baronnies de Régens près de Narbonne il y a une mater d'or excellente.

Près du village de St Jean, et même près de la petit ville il y a une magnésie délicieuse.

A St Antoine, près de St Aman, la magnésie la plus belle est là.

En Provence, dans la montagne Mondona il y a trois genres différents : une comme
celle du Piémont, une magnésie bismuth, une autre magnésie solaire ou Gur solaire
(miniere rouge d’or).



So all of these places in France have it.
It is found in Germany, also Hungary is mentioned.
These are all the places mentioned in Hyl and Coahyl, and The Mercurius de Mercurio... for the location of the Dew of Heaven. It is still the same thing - the One thing - Gur.

This, by the way, is another clue...
Elle est récoltée lorsque le soleil entre dans le Cancer, dès qu'il y à la
pleine lune, car c'est alors qu'elle change et devient jaune comme l'or

Moshe's translation - it is harvested when the sun enters into Cancer, when there is a full moon, because it is then that she changes and becomes yellow like gold. :cool:

If that is not allegory, then it is another clue for our matter.

Would anyone know what minerals are mined from those above mentioned places?
This may also be a misleading step to do, since it may not even be mentioned - something thrown off, treated with contempt... they use it to make roads. it is thrown out. But perhaps learning more about the items mined in those places in France could lead to more information.
 

alfr

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Hi every body

(thaks Moshe)

Always about bismth? magnesia? argentite di zinco? a page (sorry in french) of the original manuscript Thesaurum Thesaurorum ( it say ) where give some indication where we can found it and the better quality ?

mabe we can help to descover wath are in reality this matter

De magnésie et comment la trouver de façon meilleure

II y a des manières diverses qui portent l'appellation de magnésie : l'une, en mine
d'argent telle la (minière d’or, Roth Gold erz) pirargirite blanche. Elle semble marron et
sale et se trouve soit au-dessus, soit au-dessous du métal et elle est appelée
Saalbrand. Elle est récoltée lorsque le soleil entre dans le Cancer, dès qu'il y à la
pleine lune, car c'est alors qu'elle change et devient jaune comme l'or. On la trouve
aussi dans le Piémont, en Ungeria et tout particulièrement en Sassonia dans la Selva
Ercinia. Cependant, celles qui sont comme le cou de pigeon et de diverses couleurs
comme un cou azur de pigeon ne peuvent être obtenues autrement que par
51
l'entremise d'un bon ami auprès de la cour de Sassonia car ils ne doivent céder même
pas une livre de la mine où poasse ce minéral sans la signature même du prince
électeur de Sassonia. 2 demi-quintaux coûtent 100 talleri car chaque livre du minéral
contient 1 lot de bon argent. Si l'on veut donc obtenir un tel minéral, le prince
électeur lui-même doit donner la permission par une signature de sa propre main, ce
qui après paiement, on peut l'obtenir (le minéral) de la mine. On dit que, près de la
montagne où l'on trouve ce minéral, est érigée une fourche afin de punir celui qui
emporte un tel minéral sans permission. Tout cela permet de voir combien la maison
Sassonia a tenu en estime ce minéral dans le temps et combien il est toujours estimé,
étant donné les difficultés à le trouver et à l'obtenir.
Il y a également plusieurs endroits en France où se trouve ce minéral, comme près de
S. Béat, un Gur excellent ou écume d'or. Dans le comté de Foix, dans la montagne
Cazeret dans la mine d'or le minéral de bismuth le plus beau. Près de la petite ville
Sech, une magnésie supérieure à celle du Piémont. Dans les mines à Lourdat mucus
d'or, mater d'or et Gur d'or en grande quantité. A De Couson, il y a une magnésie
délicieuse pour l'art. Elle est d'une apparence marron-rouge avec des rayures et de
nombreuses couleurs. Au Languedoc à Tournon, dans les mines d'or de l'endroit,
une délicieuse magnésie (Minera de Bismuth. Ms Darmstadt) bismuth.
Dans les Baronnies de Régens près de Narbonne il y a une mater d'or excellente. Près
du village de St Jean, et même près de la petit ville il y a une magnésie délicieuse. A
St Antoine, près de St Aman, la magnésie la plus belle est là.
En Provence, dans la montagne Mondona il y a trois genres différents : une comme
celle du Piémont, une magnésie bismuth, une autre magnésie solaire ou Gur solaire
(miniere rouge d’or).

my best regarsds alfr
 
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True Initiate

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En Provence, dans la montagne Mondona il y a trois genres différents : une comme
celle du Piémont, une magnésie bismuth, une autre magnésie solaire ou Gur solaire
(miniere rouge d’or).

Miniere rouge d’Or is Pyrargyrite called in German Rotgiiltigerz, which means Red Golden Ore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrargyrite

It was often confused with Proustit and even Cinnabar.
 
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Moshe

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Miniere rouge d’Or is Pyrargyrite called in German Rotgiiltigerz, which means Red Golden Ore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrargyrite

How very very interesting.

Pyrargyrite is isostructural with proustite, a silver arsenic sulfide. Isostructural means that the two minerals have the same structure but a different chemistry.
Ag3SbS3 (silver antimony sulfide)

Pyrargyrite.jpg

note on this page here -it says "Pyrargyrite with quartz."
and it begins immediately in this document shared by Alfr the following -

Therefore take 50 pounds of pure zinc argentite without quartz

a blackish mineral, silver antimony sulfide, AgSbS3, showing, when transparent, a deep ruby-red color by transmitted light; ruby silver: an ore of silver.

[image link broken]

looks like cinnabar.

Big hug to True Puffer.
 

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silberglanz

Hello, dear friends,

A. Regarding the "magnesia", the manuscript of Darmstadt, p. 183 (p. 110 left of the pdf) uses the word "silberglanz". Wikipedia informs us that it is the minerals akanthite or argentite. Both have the formula Ag2S.

B. In the chapter on Magnesia and where to be found, p. 120 of the above Ms (p. 73 right of the pdf), the word used is Weissgolderz, "white gold mineral". (Red gold mineral is pyrargyrite). Literally, this is a mineral composed of gold, silver and tellurium. I do not think our magnesia is this one.

If the word used in the Ms is a misspelling for Weissgultigerz, old mineralogies say that it is a silver mineral called "minera florenorum alba". Today it is called freibergite and it is a comlex sulfosalt containing metals like Ag, semimetals like Sb and As and sulphur.

C. Paracelsus, in his "Coelum Phil.", 5th canon, says:"Two kinds of Antimony are found: one the common black, by which Sol is purified when liquefied therein. This has the closest affinity with Saturn. The other kind is the white, which is also called Magnesia and Bismuth."
I found two antimony ores that are white, valentinite and senarmontite. Both are antimony oxide, so I do not think they are our "magnesia".

I have not yet arrived in a conclusion, but I think that our magnesia should be a sulfosalt that contains antimony. After all, in the Ms it is stated that one kind of magnesia is indeed pyrargyrite, which is a sulfosalt.

Thank you,

Oratius
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Hello, dear friends,

A. Regarding the "magnesia", the manuscript of Darmstadt, p. 183 (p. 110 left of the pdf) uses the word "silberglanz". Wikipedia informs us that it is the minerals akanthite or argentite. Both have the formula Ag2S.

B. In the chapter on Magnesia and where to be found, p. 120 of the above Ms (p. 73 right of the pdf), the word used is Weissgolderz, "white gold mineral". (Red gold mineral is pyrargyrite). Literally, this is a mineral composed of gold, silver and tellurium. I do not think our magnesia is this one.

If the word used in the Ms is a misspelling for Weissgultigerz, old mineralogies say that it is a silver mineral called "minera florenorum alba". Today it is called freibergite and it is a comlex sulfosalt containing metals like Ag, semimetals like Sb and As and sulphur.

C. Paracelsus, in his "Coelum Phil.", 5th canon, says:"Two kinds of Antimony are found: one the common black, by which Sol is purified when liquefied therein. This has the closest affinity with Saturn. The other kind is the white, which is also called Magnesia and Bismuth."
I found two antimony ores that are white, valentinite and senarmontite. Both are antimony oxide, so I do not think they are our "magnesia".

I have not yet arrived in a conclusion, but I think that our magnesia should be a sulfosalt that contains antimony. After all, in the Ms it is stated that one kind of magnesia is indeed pyrargyrite, which is a sulfosalt.

Thank you,

Oratius

Interesting! Which particular PDF are you referring to, oratius?
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Thesaurus Thesaurorum A Fraternitate Rosae Et Aureae Crucis Testamento

Thanks Andro, but there are several pdf versions floating around (at least two by the past Alleilius - 'Adam Goldsmith'). I was wondering which specific translation/transcription was used.
 

Andro

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Thanks Andro, but there are several pdf versions floating around (at least two by the past Alleilius). I was wondering which specific translation/transcription was used.

The Darmstadt German MS - handwritten, very difficult (for me) to decipher. Neither translated nor transcribed, just the MS.
 

Illen A. Cluf

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The Darmstadt German MS - handwritten, very difficult (for me) to decipher. Neither translated nor transcribed, just the MS.

Thanks. One of the English translations by 'Goldsmith' was quite crude. The other was only a little better.
 

oratius

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Hi again! (I hope this post is relevant).

I am studying the Sendivogius Letters, where magnesia is mentionned. (Letter 36, Practice).

The practice described is very simple: 1. Distillation of the "magnesia". 2. Preparation of the gold sperm. 3. Preparation of the Stone from the above.

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/send40.html

I hope that Sendivogius' magnesia is the same as the Rosicrucians'...
 
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alfr

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HI ever body

MAGNESIA Some know who work at the laboratory identify with PIEMONTITE , also named as the soap of the glassmakers and in the work of it it give a special liquid green color

darmstad thesauro thesaurorum ms
we have translation many of it and public it in our thesauro of agape prometeo edition but it is in italian french and english translation it is very bad

my best regard alfr
 
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Dendritic Xylem

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I thought I had the french version, but am having trouble finding it.
My alchemy hard-drive is horribly unorganized.
 

Illen A. Cluf

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I thought I had the french version, but am having trouble finding it.
My alchemy hard-drive is horribly unorganized.

I actually contributed to part of the English translation, and went to great effort on my section (it turned out quite reasonable). However, I was very disappointed with the poor translation of most of the remaining parts. The very young 'Adam Goldsmith' promised to improve the rest of the translation, and I believe he came up with an improved version, but I understand that it was not much better. I think he basically just used the Google Translation on the French part. He passed away before he could improve it further.
 

Seth-Ra

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I actually contributed to part of the English translation, and went to great effort on my section (it turned out quite reasonable). However, I was very disappointed with the poor translation of most of the remaining parts. The very young 'Adam Goldsmith' promised to improve the rest of the translation, and I believe he came up with an improved version, but I understand that it was not much better. I think he basically just used the Google Translation on the French part. He passed away before he could improve it further.

Thats because he wanted to make revised versions later, with slightly better translations than the previous versions and keep making a profit off it. (i know, its shitty, but such was the way of his ventures.)



~Seth-Ra
 

Illen A. Cluf

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Thats because he wanted to make revised versions later, with slightly better translations than the previous versions and keep making a profit off it. (i know, its shitty, but such was the way of his ventures.)



~Seth-Ra

I don't wish to speak ill of the deceased, but I agree. His motivation to do so was his financial situation. He was very deep in debt.