. Arnold de Villeneuve Le Rosaire des Philosophes

[Illen A. Cluf]

Does anyone, especially the French members of this forum, happen to have (or know where to get) a modernized French version of: "Le Rosaire des Philosophes, Sur La Fleur d'Alkemis" by Arnaud de Villeneuve?

This is the long version of the Rosary (not the condensed version) and also not the "Rosarium Philosophorum".

It is MSS 2874 DE LA BIBL. de L’ARSENAL, XIV° SIECLE.

The old French version starts with:

"Ci commence le rosaire de maistre Arnauld de Villeneuve sur la fleur d'alkemie, c'est a savoir sur la grant pierre aux philozophes et commence ainsy. "

I have been looking for such a copy for years without any luck and find it astonishing that there is no such copy, seeing that this is one of the most often referenced source used by later alchemists.

 

[JDP]

Does anyone, especially the French members of this forum, happen to have (or know where to get) a modernized French version of: "Le Rosaire des Philosophes, Sur La Fleur d'Alkemis" by Arnaud de Villeneuve?

This is the long version of the Rosary (not the condensed version) and also not the "Rosarium Philosophorum".

It is MSS 2874 DE LA BIBL. de L’ARSENAL, XIV° SIECLE.

The old French version starts with:

"Ci commence le rosaire de maistre Arnauld de Villeneuve sur la fleur d'alkemie, c'est a savoir sur la grant pierre aux philozophes et commence ainsy. "

I have been looking for such a copy for years without any luck and find it astonishing that there is no such copy, seeing that this is one of the most often referenced source used by later alchemists.

I suppose you have already seen this:

http://www.bnam.fr/IMG/pdf/rosaire.pdf

This is an old French version of the 14th century "Rosarium Philosophorum" attributed to Arnold of Villanova. For those who can understand Spanish, there is an excellent modern Spanish translation made directly from the original Latin:

https://www.amazon.com/Rosario-Los-Filosofos-El-Rosarium/dp/8489768064

But since it is out-of-print the copies you can find nowadays for sale are absurdly expensive.

If I remember correctly, there is also a modern French translation in Calvet's book about the alchemical works attributed to Villanova:

https://livre.fnac.com/a3857945/Ant...alchimiques-attribuees-a-Arnaud-de-Villeneuve

You might want to check on that before purchasing, though. I know he translated several alchemical texts attributed to Villanova in that volume, but I can't remember with 100% certainty if the "Rosary" was included.

 

[Florius Frammel]

German version

 

[JDP]

German version

Strangely, some of the works collected in that volume have not been traditionally attributed to Villanova (like the dialogue between Maria and Aras, for example, which is actually based on an Arabic text, which itself is based on Alexandrian-Byzantine sources; I have a surviving manuscript copy of an Arabic commentary of this alchemical dialogue, found in a Turkish library; it is in the process of being translated into English.) Don't know why the editor decided to include these texts in a collection of works attributed to Villanova.

 

[JDP]

And to further clarify this topic of the "Rosary" attributed to Villanova...

This text here:

http://www.rexresearch.com/rosarium/rosarium.htm


is NOT the "Rosary" attributed to Villanova but a 16th century text, usually known as the "Rosary of the Philosophers with figures" ("cum figuris") to distinguish it from the older work attributed to Villanova, which is not accompanied by any drawings. The folks at rexresearch.com should have done their homework better instead of contributing to further confuse these two texts.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

I suppose you have already seen this:

http://www.bnam.fr/IMG/pdf/rosaire.pdf

This is an old French version of the 14th century "Rosarium Philosophorum" attributed to Arnold of Villanova. For those who can understand Spanish, there is an excellent modern Spanish translation made directly from the original Latin:

https://www.amazon.com/Rosario-Los-Filosofos-El-Rosarium/dp/8489768064

But since it is out-of-print the copies you can find nowadays for sale are absurdly expensive.

If I remember correctly, there is also a modern French translation in Calvet's book about the alchemical works attributed to Villanova:

https://livre.fnac.com/a3857945/Ant...alchimiques-attribuees-a-Arnaud-de-Villeneuve

You might want to check on that before purchasing, though. I know he translated several alchemical texts attributed to Villanova in that volume, but I can't remember with 100% certainty if the "Rosary" was included.

Hi JDP,

Thank you. The first link is the text I had quoted - it's very difficult to read because it is fully loaded with Old French words, old spellings, and some words no longer used. That is the text for which I'm looking for a modern French version.

I have a copy of the Spanish Rosario version, but I'm not familiar with Spanish.

The third link looks promising but leads to a very expensive book and there's no guarantee that the text is included.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

German version

Thanks FF. I wish I could read German.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

And to further clarify this topic of the "Rosary" attributed to Villanova...

This text here:

http://www.rexresearch.com/rosarium/rosarium.htm


is NOT the "Rosary" attributed to Villanova but a 16th century text, usually known as the "Rosary of the Philosophers with figures" ("cum figuris") to distinguish it from the older work attributed to Villanova, which is not accompanied by any drawings. The folks at rexresearch.com should have done their homework better instead of contributing to further confuse these two texts.

Yes, there are many different versions of books called "Rosary". The one that is most often quoted is the longer Rosary version mentioned above. Then there's a condensed version often called the "Little Rosary" (which is available in English). Then there's the one with the woodcuts, often called "Rosarium" which is a totally different text. The longer version is available in Latin, old French, German and Spanish, but most oddly, not in modern French or English. Yet it continues to be one of the most quoted of alchemical books. A modern French or English version should become a high priority for anyone wishing to translate. This book forms the basis for later texts such as those by Cyliani, the Hermetic Recreations, the Naturweg, John Palmer, Fulcanelli, etc.

 

[JDP]

Hi JDP,

Thank you. The first link is the text I had quoted - it's very difficult to read because it is fully loaded with Old French words, old spellings, and some words no longer used. That is the text for which I'm looking for a modern French version.

I have a copy of the Spanish Rosario version, but I'm not familiar with Spanish.

The third link looks promising but leads to a very expensive book and there's no guarantee that the text is included.

I found the table of contents for Calvet's book, it confirms that it does indeed have a French translation of the "Rosary" attributed to Villanova:

https://www.academia.edu/34300974/L...édecine_et_prophétie_au_Moyen-Âge._Paris_2011

See the "TEXTES ET TRADUCTIONS DES ŒUVRES ANALYSÉES" section.

 

[JDP]

Yes, there are many different versions of books called "Rosary". The one that is most often quoted is the longer Rosary version mentioned above. Then there's a condensed version often called the "Little Rosary" (which is available in English). Then there's the one with the woodcuts, often called "Rosarium" which is a totally different text. The longer version is available in Latin, old French, German and Spanish, but most oddly, not in modern French or English. Yet it continues to be one of the most quoted of alchemical books. A modern French or English version should become a high priority for anyone wishing to translate. This book forms the basis for later texts such as those by Cyliani, the Hermetic Recreations, the Naturweg, John Palmer, Fulcanelli, etc.

I think you are going to be rather disappointed when you can fully read it. The author maliciously makes it look as if he is talking about gold & silver amalgams with metallic mercury. You can easily tell he is lying through his teeth, though, since he also describes such things as red liquids being involved in the operations, which are simply impossible to obtain by working with actual metallic amalgams only. The "Book of Washings" attributed to Nicolas Flamel uses the exact same tactic: trying to convince you (i.e. lure you into a road that leads nowhere but certain failure) real hard that he is talking about metallic mercury and its amalgams with gold & silver, yet he also describes such things as sublimates, "stinking/fetid" liquids and white/red "oils" involved in the operations, which are simply impossible to be obtained by manipulating amalgams only. Misleading bastards!

Of the alchemical works attributed to Villanova that I have read so far, the most interesting is the "Mirror of Alchemy", which is very different from the text by the same title attributed to Roger Bacon. It takes the form of a dialogue between a master and a disciple. It also has an interesting brief description of a "particular" for turning silver into gold, performed with "the oil Duenech" (i.e. a form of the secret solvent.)

 

[zoas23]

I For those who can understand Spanish, there is an excellent modern Spanish translation made directly from the original Latin:
https://www.amazon.com/Rosario-Los-Filosofos-El-Rosarium/dp/8489768064
But since it is out-of-print the copies you can find nowadays for sale are absurdly expensive.

Probably in Amazon, but if you look into Spanish speaking bookstores, all the books of that collection are easy to find and they are expensive, but not "absurdly expensive" (maybe 35 or 40 dollars).

Have you seen that specific translation? That publishing house is weird... they have both very good books and terrible books (terrible as in mutilated, sometimes books heavily based on illustrations being published without any illustration... and sometimes indirect translations in which the source is quite obvious -i.e, Latin and Spanish have the same "root" for a lot of words... and yet some "Latin translations" are obviously Latin-to-English and then English-to-Spanish).

Then again, they also have very good books... but I don't "blindly trust" that specific publishing house. Sometimes they are good, sometimes a disaster. Have you seen by yourself this specific book?

 

[JDP]

Probably in Amazon, but if you look into Spanish speaking bookstores, all the books of that collection are easy to find and they are expensive, but not "absurdly expensive" (maybe 35 or 40 dollars).

Have you seen that specific translation? That publishing house is weird... they have both very good books and terrible books (terrible as in mutilated, sometimes books heavily based on illustrations being published without any illustration... and sometimes indirect translations in which the source is quite obvious -i.e, Latin and Spanish have the same "root" for a lot of words... and yet some "Latin translations" are obviously Latin-to-English and then English-to-Spanish).

Then again, they also have very good books... but I don't "blindly trust" that specific publishing house. Sometimes they are good, sometimes a disaster. Have you seen by yourself this specific book?

Yes, I have a copy of it. It was translated directly from Latin by a Catalan "licenciado" in Latin philology: Joan Borrell.

I find the majority of the stuff published by Indigo to be nicely done, actually.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

I found the table of contents for Calvet's book, it confirms that it does indeed have a French translation of the "Rosary" attributed to Villanova:

https://www.academia.edu/34300974/L...édecine_et_prophétie_au_Moyen-Âge._Paris_2011

See the "TEXTES ET TRADUCTIONS DES ŒUVRES ANALYSÉES" section.

Actually, it mentions the Rosaruius Philosophorum which might be the woodcut version, not the major Rosay.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

I think you are going to be rather disappointed when you can fully read it. The author maliciously makes it look as if he is talking about gold & silver amalgams with metallic mercury. You can easily tell he is lying through his teeth, though, since he also describes such things as red liquids being involved in the operations, which are simply impossible to obtain by working with actual metallic amalgams only. The "Book of Washings" attributed to Nicolas Flamel uses the exact same tactic: trying to convince you (i.e. lure you into a road that leads nowhere but certain failure) real hard that he is talking about metallic mercury and its amalgams with gold & silver, yet he also describes such things as sublimates, "stinking/fetid" liquids and white/red "oils" involved in the operations, which are simply impossible to be obtained by manipulating amalgams only. Misleading bastards!

Of the alchemical works attributed to Villanova that I have read so far, the most interesting is the "Mirror of Alchemy", which is very different from the text by the same title attributed to Roger Bacon. It takes the form of a dialogue between a master and a disciple. It also has an interesting brief description of a "particular" for turning silver into gold, performed with "the oil Duenech" (i.e. a form of the secret solvent.)

If this is misleading, then we can also conclude that Philalethes, Hermetic Recreations, Naturweg, Cyliani, John Plamer and Fulcanelli were also misleading, since they were all based on the principles expressed by Villa Nova.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

Yes, I have a copy of it. It was translated directly from Latin by a Catalan "licenciado" in Latin philology: Joan Borrell.

I find the majority of the stuff published by Indigo to be nicely done, actually.

Actually, the Spanish version differs somewhat from the French version. It seems to be a loosely adopted version. Or is it that the French version is a loosely adopted version from the Latin? I'm not to clear on this. Which is more accurate?

 

[JDP]

Actually, the Spanish version differs somewhat from the French version. It seems to be a loosely adopted version. Or is it that the French version is a loosely adopted version from the Latin? I'm not to clear on this. Which is more accurate?

I haven't looked at that old French version, but I have compared the Spanish translation with the Latin text published in many 16th-17th century editions and it is an accurate translation of it.

 

[JDP]

If this is misleading, then we can also conclude that Philalethes, Hermetic Recreations, Naturweg, Cyliani, John Plamer and Fulcanelli were also misleading, since they were all based on the principles expressed by Villa Nova.

I really don't see much connection between these texts and Arnold's "Rosary". That text is very misleading with all its apparent talk about metallic mercury and amalgams. Even "Philalethes" insinuates more intricate manipulations with mercury than the extremely vulgar things the author of the "Rosary" claims if you interpret his words 100% literally (his "preparation" of mercury consists in subliming it with some salts and then reducing it back to running mercury in "hot water"; but this is in itself a trap, as no matter how hot you make ordinary water, it will not reduce this mercuric salt back into a running mercury; Weidenfeld points this out and warns about the "foul play" in this passage.) But like I said, it's obviously a trap. The things the author describes simply can't be achieved by manipulating amalgams alone. Who has ever prepared any red liquid, for example, by manipulating metallic amalgams???? Nobody, that's who!

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

I haven't looked at that old French version, but I have compared the Spanish translation with the Latin text published in many 16th-17th editions and it is an accurate translation of it.

Well, not really. For example, I have the Latin version, as well as the old French and Spanish versions. Both Latin and old French versions start with the Table of Contents (listing the chapters). The Spanish version does not include this. Also, the introduction is different.

 

[JDP]

Actually, it mentions the Rosaruius Philosophorum which might be the woodcut version, not the major Rosay.

No, there's just no way that Calvet could have made such an elemental mistake. The guy is a scholar of Arnold of Villanova and his alleged connection with alchemy. It is his area. His translation is of the 14th century "Rosary" attributed to Villanova, not the 16th century German text with the figures.

 

[JDP]

Well, not really. I have the Latin version, and both the Latin and French versions both start with the Table of Contents (listing the chapters). The Spanish version does not include this.

The Spanish version has the table of contents at the end. The content of the text is the exact same one as the Latin editions.

 

[Illen A. Cluf]

The Spanish version has the table of contents at the end. The content of the text is the exact same one as the Latin editions.

Exact? Why at the end then? Anyways, I need to check the comparisons more closely.

 

[JDP]

Exact? Why at the end then? Anyways, I need to check the comparisons more closely.

What difference does it make where the table of contents is placed? The contents are still exactly the same no matter where it is placed. The Spanish translator followed more modern practices of placing tables of contents at the end rather than at the beginning of a book. That does not alter the content of the text itself one bit.

 

[Schmuldvich]

Misleading bastards!

More like: Ignorant readers!

 

[JDP]

More like: Ignorant readers!

LOL! Yeah, right, blame the innocent victim and spare the malicious culprit. You have swallowed hook, line and sinker the lame and silly excuses that these guys conjured up so that they could feel good about lying at their leisure and mislead others into wasting their time & money. They deserve no pity or defense whatsoever. If there is such a thing as a "Fiery Pit of Hell", this kind of alchemists are being scorched right in the middle of it for all the damage they caused to countless people.

 

[tAlc]

LOL! Yeah, right, blame the innocent victim and spare the malicious culprit. You have swallowed hook, line and sinker the lame and silly excuses that these guys conjured up so that they could feel good about lying at their leisure and mislead others into wasting their time & money. They deserve no pity or defense whatsoever. If there is such a thing as a "Fiery Pit of Hell", this kind of alchemists are being scorched right in the middle of it for all the damage they caused to countless people.

Well you just proved his point. Ignorant readers.

No alchemists is going around spoonfeeding "these people"... the ignorant ones had it coming. Might sound harsh, but it's the truth to those who just experiment or follow what they hear wildly and not taking things by a grain of salt at a time... else no damage would have been made.

Besides, it's not so hard to imagine that it's "ignorant readers" and maybe not always the case but definitely at least apart of most cases...

I've encountered so many people and I'm sure you have too, of the same type of people professing to be some sort of guru in a field of study, turns out they know little about it, and are on the wrong track, but here they go preaching what they're saying anyways as if what they say is true and "correct" at all.

Take the Book of Aquarius, or the Nick D. ******** guy for example... no Internet back then, so talk got around differently then it does now... can the same incidences today have had happened before too? Sure.