A Market for Elementals

[elixirmixer]

Are you referring to incorporeal non-human entities? (i.e. the topic of this thread)

I was referring to those who have power and authority to mold and carve the world, in which much more defenceless beings strive to survive, and that we, us here at alchemyforums, could, if we united indefinity, assist in these hard times, even the last times we have to make a change. Directly relevant I believe to the concept of as to whether we as a community could trade thought forms. Respectfully

 

[elixirmixer]

I love you all by the way. If it were up to me, I'd just drop the bomb and get on with it, however, despite tur difference in opinions occasionally, I do respect those who have invested even more time than myself, for as you can see, I am like a child, and yet that fetus took many years to birth. What shall we do?

Edit: last off topic comment

 

[Awani]

We humans are different to animals and diverse spirits, unlike them we are made in Gods image and can conjure and command (enslave) some types of non-corporeal entities.

Jesus said something along the lines of: "...those that live by the sword, die by the sword."

So the more a human being enslaves ironically the more enslaved he becomes. Funny I think.

Animals are different than humans. Dogs are different than cats. Titanic is different than Star Wars. Yet both are films. He he. Which is better? Well... that answer is relative.

I am finished with all this politically correct Alchemy.

LOL. PC? Only an ignorant cunt would call Alchemy Forums PC, and you seem to be far too intelligent for that... so I suspect this was uttered in the heat of the moment...*



* cunt = certainly not a word PC-people would use, and even more non-PC when uttered by an individual (that would be me) that is supposed to calmly moderate

 

[elixirmixer]

Well political correctness might not be the most accurate term to use but how about... Cultural Dogma's?

Like for instance. I can't buy medicines from you guys. Which is weird, because this is an alchemical community! Also, there is the, 'don't spoon feed the noobs' which is a two sided debate however the quickening of human development is IMO underrated in that argument. (In some cases)

If I dropped the SM bomb I'd be excommunicated. Not saying I even want to but its another example of a perceived cultural norm.

I think the entire argument concerning elementals went too fast I to our opi ions without us coming to a concencis on what an elemental actually is (because I'm sure there are different definitions at play here)

I don't think you should leave Axis just because there are some who put the hard word against some of your practices. If we all did that then none of us would be here I reacon.

Spell begging, another cultural norm. In my head I'm thinking 'why are these cunts so reluctant to help others' and I mean other than giving 'good advice'.

There is danger in ceremonial magic. There is danger of heavy karma if negative outcomes are produced.

To rely and spend too much time focused on a certain elemental can cause imbalances within the magician himself and in the worst case scenario, can bind the magicians soul to the designated 'sphere' of the entities we choose to hang around.

These points should be taken very seriously, especially by you Axis, since it is you which is in the greatest risk, since it is you who are practising.

I'm more concerned about your sexual expression in the astral world more than your work with elementals. If you are connecting with entities in other worlds, I would strongly recommend you re-co sided those practises, since after all you have a partner here in Malkuth (assuming you do indulge, you may not, I'm assuming based on something you said a long time ago.

Now.. Continuing our discussion, for those of you who feel that conjuring is slavery, are there OTHER methods to work with elementals that you would consider ethical?

 

[Andro]

methods to work with elementals that you would consider ethical?

Making alliances, if so inclined.

 

[Cyrano]

Excuse me, if I interfere, but here, are you talking about evoking the spirits as in Clavis Solomonis?.Please correct me, if I'm wrong, but these entities, are just crystallizations of energies generated by people's faith or real entities? .I am of the same opinion as the bestseller novel 'American Gods', where the deities exists only because people believe in their existence, and cease to exist if people no longer believe in them. A sort of artificial elementals, in short....

 

[Seth-Ra]

I think people misunderstand what things are...

An artificial construct, such as is being described, created by the magician, or by the faith of a group, is not an elemental, but rather, it is an egregore. A true spirit is sentient and alive, whereas an egregore is more akin to a robot or program; the difference between talking to an AI, or each other via these devices. One is created by the magician (or groups), to serve a function, to have a purpose. The other is sentient, living etc.

You can follow the principles and align the powers and forces to create a construct, as simply or elaborate as you want. But it's not a true spirit, more or less a spiritual machine or program.
The other comes directly from the Source and they are the Principles and Forces, living and farther reaching than a construct.
You can work with them, give them reason to act by following their Principles (much as we use any force or energy; inciting it to work for us), and they can, when we get careless or take them for granted, use said same forces to shatter our works and humble us, because they have their own sentientce. The constructs/egregores simply do as programmed.

Now, if you want to imbue an egregore with sentience... that's it's own can of worms.
You'll end up with a thing much like this robot in this clip:

Don't play God if you're no good at it.

 

[elixirmixer]

Yes, different terminology. I would call an elemental, a construct, I would call an elementary, a living being. They are different. Both can be created. You would want to have a good background in this stuff to consider creating an elementary, for the exact reason you just said, you don't want to play God if you don't know how He likes to play.

An elemental can have one or more elements.

An elementary has all elements, and the Akasha principal. It is alive. Your thoughts just 'want' to be alive.

Elementals are created every time you think of something passionately, even if your unaware.

Living beings are quite different, and this is why I brought up the point and discussing the definitions people are using. Right now Axis thinks your fuckin loopy because your basically telling him that using his iPhone is slavery, however what you mean is Elementaries, living beings of the elements. Very different from an elemental, which is a strong thought form.

 

[elixirmixer]

Yay, I'm contributing to a Magical conversation. That is a sign of movement in the right direction. I'm happy

 

[elixirmixer]

Making alliances, if so inclined.

Yes and this is what I thought someone would say. No need to control if you can make friends, however, again, very shifty ground IMHO due to the 'deal making' that can go on, which I personally strongly forbid (in advance from when I will have that choice). If you can interact without making deals, your in the clear in my opinion. (My tiny insignificant opinion since I'm a total magic noon)

Jesus says: Don't be a knob and make deals with people, you will pay every dollar, free yourself from debt... In more or less words. (I really need to recap my scripture quotes)

No no no. No deals. If you can becomes friends, wonderful, however, I'd prefer to be standing in the Circle of the Image of God, dictating to these energies, rather than be tricked and deceived, and end up the slave of that entity (even unknowingly)

All very interesting and important considerations I think.

 

[elixirmixer]

To recap my views. Commanding energies and elementals is all in a days work for the practical magician, however that is very different from summoning a living being and forcing it to do your will, however, I believe that karma holds the opinion that the ends justify the means. If you commanded, and did good for others, your sweet. If you commanded and did wrong by earth, creatures, and humanity, you are royally screwed until you pay for said karma. (IMO) ((which I'm basically gathering straight out the mouth of Franz Bardon))

 

[elixirmixer]

So finally, we come to what I believe is the point. When Axis and I spoke of 'buying spells' we are talking about magician made thought forms, not fairies and unicorns in cages on the black market.

So I think some may want to apologize to Axis, since many claimed his ways to be unethical, before really understanding what it is he's trying to convey.

Am I right Axis? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Note: I'm done flooding now

 

[Aham]

Fully agree that definitions have to be clear because a sentient being could be a plant, an animal, a rock, whatever... just depends on one's perspective.

So if I drink milk bought from a farmer and said farmer, without the consent of the cow, has ''enslaved' the cow to produce milk, am I a "cunt" for supporting the farmer by buying the milk? Am I now part of the machinery that supports this type of enslavement?

What about vegetables? What if I grow vegetables with the express intent of eating them when they are ready to be harvested? Is that a kind of enslavement as well? How do we know that vegetables don't object to being harvested? Maybe they had other plans besides becoming my dinner...

In the limit, if I'm a math/computer nerd and I think of a new fractal program and make the program do trillions of calculations or a bitcoin miner and use my array of computers to mine ad infinitum, does that constitute computer/program enslavement?

I only bring this up because I don't have any answers or even half-baked ideas on where to go with this line of questioning... Maybe we all do the best we can with what we rationalize to ourselves until we dig deeper and end up with more questions than answers... or the 'lucky' ones end up with resolution and move on.

 

[Seth-Ra]

Food, in any/all its forms should be respected and appreciated. The sacrifice is honored by what is done with it. Squander it, and no doubt there will be a reckoning.
Hunter and hunted is different from slave and slave master.

Those who form constructs do so because either A: they enjoy it/want to, or B: are made to.
Using your iPhone is not slavery; it's a construct.
Now, the forceful removal of people and nature from the environments where the minerals to build said constructs come from, and the forceful enforcement of a system that makes people work in the factories to build such, or starve/go without, is a form of slavery - and we all feel its sting to varying degrees, some more than others. At this point, the egregores of industry are to the point that we simply treat their maintanence needs as food and make use of the sacrificing going on. Doesn't mean there aren't repercussions occurring all the same though. ("Slaves" rebelling and filling the streets with death (theirs and their opressors), air, land, and water being poisoned, etc)

Even in the more vulgar senses of the world, we see people blurring the lines and causing the ripples of their own destructions; yet still find the need to ask why it wouldn't be different in deeper realms.
That is sadly comical to me.

 

[elixirmixer]

Fully agree that definitions have to be clear because a sentient being could be a plant, an animal, a rock, whatever... just depends on one's perspective.

So if I drink milk bought from a farmer and said farmer, without the consent of the cow, has ''enslaved' the cow to produce milk, am I a "cunt" for supporting the farmer by buying the milk? Am I now part of the machinery that supports this type of enslavement?

What about vegetables? What if I grow vegetables with the express intent of eating them when they are ready to be harvested? Is that a kind of enslavement as well? How do we know that vegetables don't object to being harvested? Maybe they had other plans besides becoming my dinner...

In the limit, if I'm a math/computer nerd and I think of a new fractal program and make the program do trillions of calculations or a bitcoin miner and use my array of computers to mine ad infinitum, does that constitute computer/program enslavement?

I only bring this up because I don't have any answers or even half-baked ideas on where to go with this line of questioning... Maybe we all do the best we can with what we rationalize to ourselves until we dig deeper and end up with more questions than answers... or the 'lucky' ones end up with resolution and move on.

This mind state is where im at. Let's first understand what we are talking about, and then develope opinions. Let's not jump to conclusion's, we will likely make mistakes, and possibly offend perfectly decent people.

 

[Andro]

Axia was quite clear when stating that it's OK for humans to enslave other beings (not just spells!) such as demons and other entities, with the exception of angels and deities, who "cannot be enslaved".

And the reasoning behind it was that 'humans are made in the image of god' - while the others aren't (therefore rendering them 'fair game').

So there is very little ambiguity there.

 

[Cyrano]

You seem really convinced of what you say! .But is yours direct knowledge or is it only theory?. Really those monstrosities' described in the ancient grimoires appear in the circles, after you have recited your magic formulas?. They appear physically on the material plane, or only in the astral plane? .Is any of you, so kind as to tell me his direct experience in evocatory magic ??. Thank you.

 

[Andro]

You seem really convinced of what you say! .But is yours direct knowledge or is it only theory?. Really those monstrosities' described in the ancient grimoires appear in the circles, after you have recited your magic formulas?. They appear physically on the material plane, or only in the astral plane? .Is any of you, so kind as to tell me his direct experience in evocatory magic ??. Thank you.

Not sure who you're asking, but...

I don't practice ceremonial/evocatory magic. But (without really doing anything) I have witnessed "manifestations" that were "semi-physical".

Another thing that is IMO more a semantic issue than a misconception: There are NO "non-corporeal" beings/entities that can be summoned to appear. Everything has a "body" of sorts, just on different planes and at different resonant frequencies. When one "goes" to the astral plane, one interacts in a manner that is in many ways quite similar to the way we interact on the 'physical' plane. When we "travel OOB" (for lack of a better term), especially when VERY close to the "physical" plane, we are still susceptible to electromagnetic fields (for example). The further we move out of phase, the less susceptible we become to such fields. Entities which are only very slightly out of phase can become visible and sometimes even move objects (like in the "Poltergeist" phenomenon). All this is from direct personal experience.

 

[Cyrano]

Not sure who you're asking, but...

I don't practice ceremonial/evocatory magic. But (without really doing anything) I have witnessed "manifestations" that were "semi-physical".

Another thing that is IMO more a semantic issue than a misconception: There are NO "non-corporeal" beings/entities that can be summoned to appear. Everything has a "body" of sorts, just on different planes and at different resonant frequencies. When one "goes" to the astral plane, one interacts in a manner that is in many ways quite similar to the way we interact on the 'physical' plane. When we "travel OOB" (for lack of a better term), especially when VERY close to the "physical" plane, we are still susceptible to electromagnetic fields (for example). The further we move out of phase, the less susceptible we become to such fields. Entities which are only very slightly out of phase can become visible and sometimes even move objects (like in the "Poltergeist" phenomenon). All this is from direct personal experience.

Andro,
Thank you for your contribution.
I totally agree with you,when you say that the astral plane has a materiality, exactly like the physical one, and that the difference between the two lies only in the phasing of the vibration of the matter of which the different planes are composed.I have withnessed so many different types of paranormal phenomena,(even spirits and objects materializations),that now I'm convicted that these things works by exact physical laws;there isnt such things like 'magik' or 'irrational'.
But,things like summoning and subjecting non-human entities,with a sword and magical formulas,sounds like a childish fantasy,to me.So,I'm curious to find the truth behind these Dark Age/Medioeval systems of belif.Without any offence to the practicioners,of course.

 

[Andro]

But,things like summoning and subjecting non-human entities,with a sword and magical formulas,sounds like a childish fantasy,to me.

I don't see it as childish fantasy. The so-called "Magical Formulas" are a sort of equivalent of command codes/access codes, not unlike computer programming.

Those codes have to be "input" in certain sequences and also "charged" or "fueled" (with the likes of intention, emotion, ritual, etc...). It's somewhat comparable to a Virtual Reality hacking game.

But this game has certain "laws" that cannot be circumvented, even if someone theoretically has Admin or even Super-Admin (Demiurge-class) access level. So, back to enslavement, those laws apply here as well. One reason the so-called "elites" on earth are able to essentially "enslave" people, is because the loophole of consent (or in this case, "manufactured consent"). The ones who are enslaved basically either believe they are free, or they indirectly give their consent to be "voluntarily" enslaved.

"Magically" enslaving entities without any sort of consent whatsoever, will trigger those laws into re-balancing the equation, sooner or later, one way or another. That's what some traditions may refer to as "Karma", but it's a bit more complex than that (i.e. nothing to do with "good" or "bad" or 'punishment', etc...).

The 4th Season of the TV series Black Mirror was just released on Netflix. The first episode has some similarities to what is being discussed here.

 

[Cyrano]

Andro,
I do not question the efficacy of the ancient rituals and magic formulas used, but the true origin of these non-human entities that are evoked.Are you so sure that these aren't a sort of 'tulpas', which respond to certain characteristics, because of the belief of the people who created them,unintentionally??

 

[Blacksmith]

Some text about creation and astral servers, I read some things but nothing concrete