A Market for Elementals

[elixirmixer]

Will there ever be a market for the practising Magician?

Could you theoretically "buy" an elemental from a trained Magician?

The wise of you will see where I'm going with this... Obviously elementals have certain effects that by the sounds of it could greatly assist individuals, even individuals who do not practise magic (or who suck at it)

Can we give this a shot? Is anyone willing to procure me.an elemental that will assist me in a personal purification?

I'm basically thinking Kior or Axis could achieve this.

Can someone please run me through what this would look like, or if its even possible?

Its just a thought so no witchhunts please.

 

[Axismundi000]

Elixir mixer you probably don’t realise this but your post constitutes what is referred to as spell begging. On occult forums this is generally against forum rules. I do not do ‘spells’ for people and do not charge money (because I don’t do them). If you want someone to achieve a result for you and cannot do it yourself the normal thing is to contact a professional practitioner and pay them the appropriate fee. I’m not sure if Andro offers this particular service, if he doesn’t perhaps he can point you in the direction of someone who can help, or you could look online for a person with a good reputation and track record for this kind of work.

 

[elixirmixer]

Haha! Spell begging. I love it.

I have thought about hiring Andro for some soul shard retrieval.

So yes I mean this is basically the answer I was looking for, is it, or is it not an accepted practise and judging by what you say, it is not.

Its strange how community like ours doesn't encourage "trading". I always thought it would be a great way to speed up peoples development. I'd in courage it more myself but I promised another member who helped me out that I wouldnt go around "trading" so I don't.

Still, seems a pitty. Suppose I'll have to make my own.

My wife comes back today and I'm going into some seriously needed withdrawal from society. Just me and Franz Bardon. By then I should be able to create my own elementals (I know I've done it before, bit without realising what I was doing).

Yeah it was just a thought, for all I knew you might have just said "sure mate, sending one through now" lol.

Its never that easy is it haha.

 

[elixirmixer]

For sale: 1 used Love Elemental. Lure in the girl of your dreams! Con any beautiful Sheela to get knocked up on the first go. Lock her down and into your clutches. No refunds. Conditions apply.

 

[Aham]

Axis, are there any forums you would recommend? Maybe EM and others can do their own due diligence and find a professional to work with.

 

[Warmheart]

From what I know, authentic Elemental is a living creature, so even if to assume that Bardon's techniques of working with Elementals are correct, do you think it would be ethically good to buy/sell living beings as if they were some commodity?

 

[elixirmixer]

Well what's the difference in selling say, a celery, and selling the elemental associated with the celery?

What's the difference in buying a few acres on top of a hill, and buying the elemental who runs the fields

What's the difference in making a financial investment in a zoo, and summoning a bunch of financial elementals??

HMMMM!?!?!?!

 

[Andro]

I’m not sure if Andro offers this particular service

He doesn't.

perhaps he can point you in the direction of someone who can help

He won't.

He doesn't do "spells" and he doesn't practice ceremonial magic. For shamanic work, it not necessary. You just "phase out", go where you need to go and do what you need to do. After years of training and practice, you can do it on the train or while sitting on the toilet

"Trading Elementals" is very different from trading real estate, and is essentially a form of "slave trade". Unethical and certainly not recommended. Also a high chance to backfire. Badly.

 

[Seth-Ra]

"Trading Elementals" is very different from trading real estate, and is essentially a form of "slave trade". Unethical and certainly not recommended. Also a high chance to backfire. Badly.

^This.

You are literally talking about slavery, at a higher level, as if 1: it were ethically sound, and 2: as if you, or anyone else, would be able to contain such living beings for such barbarism.

Buying food, is to take in life to sustain life.
Buying real estate is for caretaking that land, and making use of it. (Preferably to take care of it, help it grow, both in money value as well as actual life-essence value. To nurture and grow it, just as you do with yourself with the food.)

To do anything short of that, is to squander, and twist, and reap the death you're sowing. Spirit, and all its little aspects (from elementals, to archons, angels and even demons) will not abide such foolish arrogance, and there will be no help/salvation from the impending wrath that will befall the soul who is stupid enough to think themselves capable of confining, enslaving, and prostituting powers that are above (or below) them.

All things have their equivalence.

 

[Axismundi000]

Axis, are there any forums you would recommend? Maybe EM and others can do their own due diligence and find a professional to work with.

Wizards Forum has I think a whole section on people offering magical services also on Facebook anything grimoire related could get a person in contact with professionals but usually they are making magical equipment not sure if they also do commissioned magical work.

 

[Axismundi000]

He doesn't.



He won't.

He doesn't do "spells" and he doesn't practice ceremonial magic. For shamanic work, it not necessary. You just "phase out", go where you need to go and do what you need to do. After years of training and practice, you can do it on the train or while sitting on the toilet

"Trading Elementals" is very different from trading real estate, and is essentially a form of "slave trade". Unethical and certainly not recommended. Also a high chance to backfire. Badly.

I think there is a fundamental difference of worldview with several interesting points. Firstly about what an ‘elemental’ actually is: A; an artificial elemental which is an autonomous extension of the magician so if the magician sent this to assist another it has been created and developed from the magicians energy. B; An actual elemental that can be evoked (conjured) and commanded by the magician to serve him or another. This whole view by several posters here that commanding elementals, or Demons is slavery runs contrary to literally thousands of years of magical practice and tradition in Europe and the Middle East, even in pre-Christian times. Whilst people are entitled to their view the fact that this historical position has not even be briefly touched on shows a lack of knowledge of European occult heritage (whether the traditional view is agreed with or not). The only spiritual being that cannot be bound into servitude or slavery is what is called an Angel. Having evoked to visible and/or physical manifestation all these and ‘enslaved’ goetic demons to serve my purposes, (in fact I think I have a couple left that still have tasks they would need to fulfill to be released from obligation to me the seals for this are in a steel box somewhere I think); I find this ‘human rights’ for elementals and Demons faintly amusing.

If this group opinion stems from the view that humans are the same as animals and also therefore various spirits it is completely wrong. For example there is experimental and observational evidence that we are different to all other species on this planet so the analogy that we are also the same as various spirits etc is also not valid from that perspective.

Examples: 1. Humans cause make and put out fire no other species does this - observational evidence. Also electricity and magnetism. 2. Young human children in an experiment when they are given a treat for stacking a block on another will become curious about the blocks if they are given one that doesn’t fit. No other primate does this in the same scenario they just try to stack the two blocks failing, don’t seem to investigate why.

We humans are different to animals and diverse spirits, unlike them we are made in Gods image and can conjure and command (enslave) some types of non-corporeal entities.

Edit: Deities also cannot be ‘bound or enslaved’.

 

[elixirmixer]

My understanding was that elementals were the astral correspondence for life forms in the 3D realm. So if I want the highest medicinal virtue from a sage plant, than I should clairvoyantly request assistance from the plants elemental spirit, otherwise its considered attacking the plant and it don't give all the goodness it could have.

So then doesn't it depend on the intelligence of the creature? Sure I wouldn't put an orca in a little tank and make it do circus tricks, but I would breed up locusts and mushrooms and eat those little bastards. Or even just plants. Where is the point in which we say, 'this is now cruel'

I apologize if I've upset anyone, I don't really have much of a knowledge reservoir in this area.

However, can't I create an elemental? And isn't it with the intention that it work for me? I understand the issues with trading in regards to what Andro means by 'backfire' because of the unpredictable outcomes and the risk of inexperienced people doing dodgy stuff and telling you its good.

So if controlling elementals is considered wrong, what do we do with them then? Summon them as friendly pets who want to spend time with us? Like a Pokemon? If its like a Pokemon, I'm all for it.

@Andro, the thing that's always confused me about shamanism (the first religion I ever looked into) was, not so much the 'going' bit the 'doing'. What can one do in these places to help one'sself? Yoga? Pray? I'm lost with what the actual practise in the netherworlds in tails... Obviously not ceremonial magic.. But what?

Thank you everyone for sharing your views

 

[Andro]

commanding elementals, or Demons is slavery runs contrary to literally thousands of years of magical practice and tradition in Europe and the Middle East. I find this ‘human rights’ for elementals and Demons faintly amusing.

Historical precedence doesn't make it ethical. It's like saying that human rights for slaves are amusing because slavery has been practiced in Europe and the Middle East.

We humans are different to animals and diverse spirits, unlike them we are made in Gods image and can conjure and command (enslave) some types of non-corporeal entities.

How convenient

The only spiritual being that cannot be bound into servitude or slavery is what is called an Angel.

Again, I am cautioning against the mentality of 'binding into servitude or slavery". This mentality seems to be common among certain ceremonial magicians. Not saying it's impossible, but it is unethical and it does backfire. Maybe not today, maybe not in 20 years, but at some point there will be a price to pay.

The only possible exception (as I see it) is when there is mutual consent. Some entities may actually get a kick out of being enslaved

 

[Andro]

What can one do in these places to help one'sself? Yoga? Pray? I'm lost with what the actual practise in the netherworlds in tails... Obviously not ceremonial magic.. But what?

You'll see when you get there.

 

[elixirmixer]

I just read your post Axis, yes, the entire idea of ceremonial magic is to summon and control these 'lower' Spirits. Hence why I am also a little confused. I'm not a massive fan of this type of magic anyway, more because of the danger it poses to the magician if he/she behaves ignorantly, however I never considered it from the point of 'rights for elementals'

Perhaps the difference in definition is in the Elemetaries. Which I believe are slightly different, more sentient, more 'alive', harder and more dangerous to control certainly, I'd be scared to attempt work with them as I know I'd fuck it up and it would go bad...

Again I see it as, making a magpie fly where you want so you can see where your vorging, compared to you going down to Woolworths and actually EATING a dead chicken. I'd say the crime is in the killing, not in the gentle borrowing.

Also a reminder, that the reason that ceremonial magic works, is because we are literally given permission from God to have this ability of controlling elementals demons, and if your a fully realized avatar such as Christ than "I could command twelve legions of Angels and they would be delivered" or however it goes.

"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you"

"We do what we see the Father doeth"

EDIT: I believe there is a bit in the bible that says something like "When the demons saw Jesus, they shat themselves, and said 'have mercy on us you Son of God'" and again "people we scared because He had power over demons" ect... Pretty common stuff back then by the looks

 

[Andro]

When the demons saw Jesus, they shat themselves, and said 'have mercy on us you Son of God'" and again "people we scared because He had power over demons" ect... Pretty common stuff back then by the looks.

There's a difference between deliberate enslavement of another entity and power politics/power economics. If one is perceived as "top dog", other beings may see it in their best interest to defer to such a being

 

[elixirmixer]

Do you makes 'deals' or have 'dealings' with any entities in your shamanic work, or... No entity commanding..?

I have a lot to learn about this stuff. I'm still pretty oblivious. I'll have to give it a go soon

 

[Andro]

Do you makes 'deals' or have 'dealings' with any entities in your shamanic work, or... No entity commanding..?

No "entity commanding" as such. But some sort of "battle" is sometimes necessary, such as in cases of a nasty astral parasite who won't leave easily. It isn't necessarily a direct fight, except for rare occasions. Often, you have to "trick" the parasite or the foreign entity into leaving. Sometimes it is forceful removal, (NOT "command" or" enslavement") and other times it's just offering the invader a "better deal" (quasi-negotiation) and then subsequently disposing of it. Yes, it is a type of battle strategy, it often isn't "pretty", but (for me) it NEVER involves subjugating/enslaving another entity for my own benefit. You do what it takes to get the job done, and then you let go and move on. The traps & temptations of power are common, and should be avoided.

Real Power does NOT come from beings or entities. Those who believe this (IMO) still have a way to go. Real Power is an entirely different thing and it IS the difficult to access. That's why I believe that most magicians rely on power that is "taken" via subjugation/enslavement/etc - because of the lack of ability to access the real source of Power. IMO.

 

[Axismundi000]

Historical precedence doesn't make it ethical. It's like saying that human rights for slaves are amusing because slavery has been practiced in Europe and the Middle East.



How convenient



Again, I am cautioning against the mentality of 'binding into servitude or slavery". This mentality seems to be common among certain ceremonial magicians. Not saying it's impossible, but it is unethical and it does backfire. Maybe not today, maybe not in 20 years, but at some point there will be a price to pay.

The only possible exception (as I see it) is when there is mutual consent. Some entities may actually get a kick out of being enslaved

I expected character assassination but not so clumsy. It is not like human slavery which is immoral because spirits, Demons and Angels are not like humans as I clearly identify in my post. To imply I am effectively advocating human slavery because I bind and control (sometimes effectively enslave) Demons is the essence of calumniation. As for the rest of your moralising guff I care not.

 

[Warmheart]

Don't do to others what you wouldn't like to be done to yourself. It is a golden law which should be followed, and you will be fine in occult world.

It is not out of realm of impossibility to be enslaved just like those Elementals in "afterlife". It might be as a consequence of the game, in which those beings decided to play with you, because honestly, 100 years is extremely small amount of time, Elementals can wait and serve you (or to whom you sell them), and then get you enslaved for millenias as an act of repercussion.

You also get despise from Higher Beings for doing things like that. I don't think that 100-200 USD you get for such acts in extremely short life of human (100 years is far beyond infinitely less than completely nothing) is worth being thrown into the Lower Worlds for, possibly, millions of years, which is another possible outcome for acting as totally unworthy of better Worlds.

Frauds and quacks do a good work by spreading charlatanic practices, so that unaware people wouldn't harm others and themselves with their wishes. Truly, it is better being deluded, than realize that you just traded millions of years of existing in totally unfriendly, hideous environments with frightening ways of living in there for some pathetic 100-200 USD. I don't think that even million of dollars is good enough price for that.

Thankfully, practices which can be found in most of (but not all, there are very rare exceptions) modern books are fruitless. Including Bardon's books.

I am not saying that selling Elementals is bad - "good" and "bad" aren't exactly absolute terms. After all, Hell-like Worlds also need to be filled. Just need to be aware of nasty repercussions in case of getting success with such goals on this Earth.

 

[Andro]

I expected character assassination but not so clumsy. It is not like human slavery which is immoral because spirits, Demons and Angels are not like humans as I clearly identify in my post. To imply I am effectively advocating human slavery because I bind and control (sometimes effectively enslave) Demons is the essence of calumniation. As for the rest of your moralising guff I care not.

I posted my personal view on the topic (not on YOU!), not remotely a "character assassination". But if you think it's all about you, then there you go...

Everyone added their unique perspectives to the topic. That's what discussion forums are about. If you can't take the "heat", get out of the kitchen.

A slave driver is a slave driver is a slave driver. The Archetype remains. There's always a "bigger" picture than we are able to see. The microcosm of the various earth-bound planes is but a drop in the ocean. If you "enslave" another being, even if non-human, there are consequences in the larger scheme of things.

I personally wouldn't enslave any being, human and non-human alike (unless they specifically ask for it LOL )

As for the rest of your moralising guff I care not.

Neither are you expected to. I merely posted my personal views for those interested in dabbling in those areas.

Besides, I'm not talking about morality, I'm talking about ethics and adhering to a certain universal law (Balance).

Morality and ethics are not quite the same.

It is not like human slavery which is immoral because spirits, Demons and Angels are not like humans as I clearly identify in my post.

For certain extreme factions within some religions or ideologies, only their adherents are considered "legit humans". Everyone else is fair game to them.

This lame excuse has been used far too often with devastating results.

Groups that have been considered non-human/sub-human and thus "fair game":

Slaves and then blacks.

Women

Goyim/gentiles (non-jews)

Gays

Non-arians

Non-muslims

Indigenous populations

The lists goes on.

So I could just conveniently make a post where I declare that such and such beings are "not human", and then go on to enslave whomever I damn well please according to my particular belief system.

Maybe you can't see it (or deny it if you do), but this is the same logic that has been used to justify slavery and many other forms of enslavement or persecution: "They're not human".

 

[Axismundi000]

I posted my personal view on the topic (not on YOU!), not remotely a "character assassination". But if you think it's all about you, then there you go...

Everyone added their unique perspectives to the topic. That's what discussion forums are about. If you can't take the "heat", get out of the kitchen.

A slave driver is a slave driver is a slave driver. The Archetype remains. There's always a "bigger" picture than we are able to see. The microcosm of the various earth-bound planes is but a drop in the ocean. If you "enslave" another being, even if non-human, there are consequences in the larger scheme of things.

I personally wouldn't enslave any being, human and non-human alike (unless they specifically ask for it LOL )



Neither are you expected to. I merely posted my personal views for those interested in dabbling in those areas.

Besides, I'm not talking about morality, I'm talking about ethics and adhering to a certain universal law (Balance).

Morality and ethics are not quite the same.



For certain extreme factions within some religions or ideologies, only their adherents are considered "legit humans". Everyone else is fair game to them.

This lame excuse has been used far too often with devastating results.

Groups that have been considered non-human/sub-human and thus "fair game":

Slaves and then blacks.

Women

Goyim/gentiles (non-jews)

Gays

Non-arians

Non-muslims

The lists goes on.

This is the standard cultural Marxist, critical Theory strategy and frankly I am done here or as you put it I cannot take the heat so I am leaving the kitchen. I have far better things to do with my time than bandy words with someone who infers such wickedness. All of like mind can enjoy this echo chamber together.

Interestingly I cleared all my messages last night before this thread was started but didn’t know why. I will place an unsubscribe request but it doesn’t matter if it is effected because I am finished with all this politically correct Alchemy.

 

[Andro]

someone who infers such wickedness.

Wickedness = disagrees with you.

I will place an unsubscribe request

I'm quite sure the universe will survive for now. But you never know

I am finished with all this politically correct Alchemy.

This is neither PC nor is it Alchemy. It is just a discussion involving the ethics of practicing magic. A thicker skin may come in handy

Best!

 

[elixirmixer]

I may not have quite the distinction as some; however, even from my lowly perch, I feel sadness, and a discomfort, that such a diverse, intelligent, aware beings, cannot harmoniously contribute to a global healing.

This place is the micro macro cossum of my knowledge superiority complex. What shall we do?

 

[Andro]

such a diverse, intelligent, aware beings, cannot harmoniously contribute to a global healing.

Are you referring to incorporeal non-human entities? (i.e. the topic of this thread)