. A Big Trap of the Alchemist

[Moshe]

I share this in hopes it can help someone who is taking a dark path.
I have seen a friend driven insane by desire of the Stone.
I know it can do it to others.

In a wise society of divine sibling-hood, we would know that it is much more important to Be The Stone rather than to Make the Stone. To Make the stone is a wonderful, joyous thing, and i have a deep love in my heart for it, however, a brother or sister who gets too much into making the stone can begin getting twisted inside, and lose, because of that desire, the very thing which the Stone is offering. Strange paradox.

It is the very same as the Paradox of the Serpent in the Garden of Eden.

Genesis 3:1-3

1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman: 'Yea, hath God said: Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?'
2 And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'

He tempts Adam and Eve to desire to be the very thing they already are. We ARE the Stone. We have just forgotten. We are the Love, Children of Creator. We are the Human Beings, Aquarian Children of Go, made by the marriage of the Father and the Mother.

You may have seen some alchemists become very hard inside. It is because they DESIRE the Stone so much, and get soooo much into it, so much knowledge, they cannot even have one love connection with anyone in this world. They have fallen into the trap of the alchemist - the desire the Stone as something external. It is a twisted act, just as desiring to be what you already are.
If we get distorted by our desire, and the One Stone turns into the One Ring of Sauron, then there is evil there. Then this very act to TRY to be what we already are calls upon the Serpent of the Garden.

One thing I have seen on this awesome group is a discussion about good and evil. I started a thread, actually, about the topic of whether or not The Stone can be pursued or created by an evil being. Well, I truly believe now that The Stone, as in The Most High Stone that we all truly seek, cannot be made by evil. Bc it is good. Bc it is Love and Brings Love. Plain and simple. But what can be made by a twisted being, is a stone of power. This is like the Ring of Sauron, that can control the Nine Kings of Mortal Men. I’ve seen a few of them lurking around the net. It, of course, won’t be a very beautiful stone, but it will give them a lot of fiery energy to do what they want. Such a ring can also bring long life. Look at Golem. But it is, ultimately, a living hell, bc without Love, we suffer the torment of hell.

The importance of Earth is great. Here walks the Human Children of God. Here is the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Here has Walked the Christ and Hermes Trimagesterial.

One very simple truth I was "shown" is that the name of the Devil in Hebrew is HaNaChush and that, said backwards, is Shekinah (Holy Spirit / Goddess / Mother) – So the Devil is meant, really, to go against the Shekinah. When he does so, he blocks the flow of the Spiritus Mundi, that clear Mercurial fluid that is so feminine, so ready for her mate the Lion King. That is why the Devil in us must die too... that is why, when we get too much into desire, and we lose sight of the very thing we're after, Love, then we cannot find the Stone. We cannot make the Stone. We are in a state of separation from the Source of the Source.

She is SOOOOOO DIVINE... how can you attract her if you do not FEEL her, Love her?!?!

I write this from the bottom of my heart, having gotten so deeply into the study of the Stone, that I forgot the simple Truth. We are. I am.
The balance here is that, I am, but I am also not yet totally transformed.
As I embrace the Truth that I Am, then, well, I must also be humble enough to recognize where I am not.
And it is in this sort of balanced attitude that we have a better inner environment to practice the Great Work.
The Stone aides us in Being. That is its importance. It transmutes the part of us we struggle with that is the Devil that we cannot seem to shake out of ourselves, and alas, we continue to age and die.

It is a continual balance.
To desire the Stone is the trap of the Serpent.
To desire no continual perfection, no stone, is a trap of self-delusions of grandeur.

I know myself and know I have to continuously check in to ensure I am not desiring the Stone more than I am allowing myself to just be.
We acknowledge that we are the Stone. It lives and breathes in us.

A question is asked –
When you have made the Stone, and you have become your Pure Lion Activated Self, then what?

Then you get to Love, however, whoever, whenever. Then you get to BE in your Life. Then you are a Human Being.

 

[Awani]

I disagree on the Eden bit. I go with the Gnostic view that the Serpent is good. That by eating they will see that God is false. This point, IMO, changes the whole scenario.

No evil in the Stone, nor in alchemy... None!

It is only Man that is wicked... and false gods the most efficient trap!

 

[Moshe]

I disagree on the Eden bit. I go with the Gnostic view that the Serpent is good. That by eating they will see that God is false. This point, IMO, changes the whole scenario.
No evil in the Stone, nor in alchemy... None!
It is only Man that is wicked... and false gods the most efficient trap!

I have not studied Gnosticism, only heard a smattering of ideas from it. However, if THAT is Gnosticism, then it is most definitely not for me.

I agree that the Serpent plays a role. And it is a good role, ultimately, but not to be followed. But saying that the Serpent is Good and God is false... ummm, no.

Scenario is the same. There is a trap to desire the Stone and forget about one's Being.

 

[Awani]

Hmm well to each his own. I don't know your beliefs but if they are by any chance pro-Christian then you should give Gnosticism texts a chance. It puts Christian thinking in a better light.

After all the Bible also states: "be ye wise as serpents".

 

[Moshe]

Hmm well to each his own. I don't know your beliefs but if they are by any chance pro-Christian then you should give Gnosticism texts a chance. It puts Christian thinking in a better light.After all the Bible also states: "be ye wise as serpents".

My beliefs are pretty Universal, I'd say. I was born Jewish, still am, was not rasied Christian, but I do see Christ, beyond all the religious beliefs and distortions, as the Messiah who fulfills the prophecy of the Tanach (Torah and the Prophets)...

Yes, be wise as serpents... but not deceitful as the Capitol 'S', Serpent.

 

[Awani]

Well what the Gnostics mean is that the god in Genesis is a lesser god... Satan if you will... The true good would not be a jealous god, be incorrect; like creating all animals good yet there is a serpent... The real god is far above the god present in Genesis. This is their point. It is an allegory for the false illusion we live in also.

Btw to me Satan and Devil are man-made inventions... Any evil belongs to man. Nature/god is not concerned with petty morals like that anyway. Considering the vast realms of the multi-verse, who are we but another anthill?

 

[Moshe]

Well what the Gnostics mean is that the god in Genesis is a lesser god... Satan if you will... The true good would not be a jealous god, be incorrect; like creating all animals good yet there is a serpent... The real god is far above the god present in Genesis. This is their point. It is an allegory for the false illusion we live in also.

I understand that, and agree with it, for the most part.
The Torah is a very very profound and interesting book. I know it is of Divine origin, but it is not always understood, in the proper light.
It is the Tree of Life (Unity) but also, very much, the Tree of Knowledge for Good and Bad/Evil - duality.
The Jews believe that God looked into the Torah and made the world - it is the blueprint.
But it is also true that the world (this world) was created in duality. It's a game. A puzzle.
We have to decipher it.
I am with you on God not being jealous.
However, I understand the "jealous" God thing as the path being narrow - and God is not many things that people try to be, or do, thinking it is okay,
or godly. It is not. So God is choosy, for us, for our benefit. Understands if we're chosing wrong, but still is firm with the boundary.
That is not "jealous" in the way we understand, but it is "possessive" of us, let's say.

Btw to me Satan and Devil are man-made inventions... Any evil belongs to man. Nature/god is not concerned with petty morals like that anyway. Considering the vast realms of the multi-verse, who are we but another anthill?

Have to disagree with you here Dev.
Satan and Devil are not man-made. You don't have to believe in it for it to be real.
We didn't create them... and people who have no context, no belief, no understanding of them can
have a very real and very horrible encounter with those forces.

And us... we are very important in the scheme of things.
sure one human, lost on the path, sad as it may be, not THAT important, but us, humans, our project,
this earth, it's VERY important, which is why each human who does get it is very important. Each master, adept, Avatar - very, very vital in the big scheme of things.

 

[Hellin Hermetist]

Well what the Gnostics mean is that the god in Genesis is a lesser god... Satan if you will... The true good would not be a jealous god, be incorrect; like creating all animals good yet there is a serpent... The real god is far above the god present in Genesis. This is their point. It is an allegory for the false illusion we live in also.

Hi Dev,
I am not well acquainted with the Gnostics doctrine, but wasn't the god of Genesis Yehovah, which is linked with the moon, with Satan/Lucifer linked with the planet Venus?

 

[Moshe]

Hi Dev,
I am not well acquainted with the Gnostics doctrine, but wasn't the god of Genesis Yehovah, which is linked with the moon, with Satan/Lucifer linked with the planet Venus?

Not exactly the point of this thread... which has yet to really be discussed / commented on.

 

[MarkostheGnostic]

My beliefs are pretty Universal, I'd say. I was born Jewish, still am, was not rasied Christian, but I do see Christ, beyond all the religious beliefs and distortions, as the Messiah who fulfills the prophecy of the Tanach (Torah and the Prophets)...

Yes, be wise as serpents... but not deceitful as the Capitol 'S', Serpent.

I am a Jewish-Christian of Gnostic persuasion. I would like to recommend one book about the construction of the canonical Bible. I have met and spoken with the author on three occasions. This is one of a dozen books he has written but the one I had him autograph. The New testament was written to consolidate all of the prophesies of the Tenach into the singular personage of Iesous/Issa/Y'shua. Pretty amazing, people say. What is the probability of one man seemingly the terminus of all of these separate prophesies? Easy peezy if you write it that way. The NT is the Tenach recapitulated, with names changed. The book in question is:
Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes by Rev. John Shelby Spong. http://www.amazon.com/Liberating-Go...27ZE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1329102849&sr=8-2
The NT was written to follow the Jewish liturgical calendar, and the themes of the Tenach are repeated with modifications, scribal insertions, and a universalizing tendency that was intended to eliminate the exclusivism of the Jewish cultus, and open up salvation to all peoples.

Shalom,
MtG

 

[Awani]

I am not well acquainted with the Gnostics doctrine, but wasn't the god of Genesis Yehovah, which is linked with the moon, with Satan/Lucifer linked with the planet Venus?

According to the Gnostics it was Demiurge.

Gnosticism presents a distinction between the highest, unknowable God and the demiurgic “creator” of the material. Several systems of Gnostic thought present the Demiurge as antagonistic to the will of the Supreme Being: his act of creation occurs in unconscious semblance of the divine model, and thus is fundamentally flawed, or else is formed with the malevolent intention of entrapping aspects of the divine in materiality. Thus, in such systems, the Demiurge acts as a solution to the problem of evil. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge)

Not exactly the point of this thread... which has yet to really be discussed / commented on.

I think that was what I was doing, as you did not pose a question specifically, you posed ideas... ideas I decided to debate.

...HaNaChush and that, said backwards, is Shekinah...

Did you ever consider that it is so because God and Devil in the Torah is one and the same? Or that the writers, as they were men who wrote, fashioned it thus.

As for the jealous bit I had this in mind when I called the Creator god in Genesis jealous:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me...

I do agree that the human enterprise is interesting to the cosmic forces, but lets not make the mistake that we are the center of it all... after all we go around the sun, not the sun around us!

As for the big trap of alchemy, well I don't see it. If there is an aim to gain power, to rule, to increase material wealth etc... then yes there could be dangers, but then again no Stone will be found. I think the biggest trap in alchemy is one of the following:

- false preachers
- ego/bravado
- greed

 

[Moshe]

I think that was what I was doing, as you did not pose a question specifically, you posed ideas... ideas I decided to debate.

...As for the big trap of alchemy, well I don't see it. If there is an aim to gain power, to rule, to increase material wealth etc... then yes there could be dangers, but then again no Stone will be found. I think the biggest trap in alchemy is one of the following:

- false preachers
- ego/bravado
- greed

There! You responded to my post more directly. Thank you!

Did you ever consider that it is so because God and Devil in the Torah is one and the same? Or that the writers, as they were men who wrote, fashioned it thus.

I do not think God and Devil in the Torah are one and the same. No.
But I do see the Devil woven into the Torah - with the limitations, the divisions, the beliefs are woven in there.
I do see lots of people believing it all from God and not discerning which is which.
In Kabbalah, this is believed to be as a result of the "fall" - the original Torah (10 commandments - is equivalent in this case)
that Moses went up the mountain to get, were a pure form. But when Moses came down and saw the Israelites worshipping the Emerald Sun Tablet... errr...
I mean the Golden Calf, , he threw down that Torah - it was pure.
Then the one the Jews got is mixed up... mixed as a challenge.
It's a reflection of the Game of Life itself. It is a blueprint for the world of duality itself.
When studied from within the proper light, all is revealed - one can see the duality as duality,
and recognize where the Oneness lies within...

After all, the greatest of all alchemist have all pointed to Torah to make the Stone by mirroring the Creator...

 

[Moshe]

I am a Jewish-Christian of Gnostic persuasion. I would like to recommend one book about the construction of the canonical Bible. I have met and spoken with the author on three occasions. This is one of a dozen books he has written but the one I had him autograph. The New testament was written to consolidate all of the prophesies of the Tenach into the singular personage of Iesous/Issa/Y'shua. Pretty amazing, people say. What is the probability of one man seemingly the terminus of all of these separate prophesies? Easy peezy if you write it that way. The NT is the Tenach recapitulated, with names changed. The book in question is:
Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes by Rev. John Shelby Spong. http://www.amazon.com/Liberating-Go...27ZE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1329102849&sr=8-2
The NT was written to follow the Jewish liturgical calendar, and the themes of the Tenach are repeated with modifications, scribal insertions, and a universalizing tendency that was intended to eliminate the exclusivism of the Jewish cultus, and open up salvation to all peoples.
Shalom,
MtG

Shalom Mark TG,

I appreciate you sharing.
Before I read it, may I ask you a question about this work called "Liberating the Gospels" -
Do they deny the existence of Yeshua?
Do they state that he did exist but was not quite what they made him out to be?
What sort of state do they say he existed in?

I appreciate this understanding.

 

[solomon levi]

I have seen a couple interpretations of the serpent and the tree personally.
In one interpretation, one might say knowledge is a trap compared to life (regarding the two trees).
Depending on one's definition - you might say knowledge is a reflection onto the past and
life/living is something occuring presently without commentary/reflection/twoness/fragmentation.

I don't think it's good or bad. Knowledge was a new direction for Adam and Eve. We can't appreciate
union without knowing separation. So doing anything more than once could define a trap. But is it?
Or is there circulation, a spiral/vortex instead of a circle. Can one ever step into the same stream twice?
I think not. But relatively speaking - okay - trap. Knowledge is a trap if we don't apply it in action.
We've discussed this somewhat with beliefs and opinion.
One could define any goal as a trap, alchemy or otherwise.
One may consider it an offense to "god", that which is, to desire what is to be other than it is.
Thus, is human will/desire always an offense to "the will of god", i.e. that which is?
Or isn't human/personal will also that which is? What isn't that which is?

So "trap" is relative to your perspective and degree of separation.
Are there obstacles to obtaining the stone? Certainly and necessarily.
But it's all relative to how fast you believe you need to get there.
One could relish the obstacles. Nothing wrong with that. One could recycle
or reincarnate a hundred times. Does that mean they missed the mark (the original
meaning of the word "sin")? No. Everyone is always hitting their mark. Who should say
what question another should be asking? Who should say where another should be aiming?

So this is something you decide for yourself. There is no objective answer. We can say we
are trapped if we don't feel like we are learning and growing. But such "plateaus" are part of
growth too - they create strength. We could re-label "trap" as "tempering" or "toning" or what-not.

So this is a time relative question and dependant on how much of a hurry one is in (goal-oriented)
or how present one is. Presence dissolves the appearance of traps.
Shekinah conceals satan. Satan conceals Shekinah. Devil est Deus inversus. Yin-Yang, the three gunas, tridosha, tria prima, etc.

 

[Moshe]

Solomon,
thank you for writing and sharing your thoughts.

I have seen a couple interpretations of the serpent and the tree personally.
In one interpretation, one might say knowledge is a trap compared to life (regarding the two trees).
Depending on one's definition - you might say knowledge is a reflection onto the past and
life/living is something occuring presently without commentary/reflection/twoness/fragmentation.

I don't think it's good or bad. Knowledge was a new direction for Adam and Eve. We can't appreciate
union without knowing separation.

Whereas I do agree with you about "we cannot appreciate union without knowing separation" - it is important to recognize
the kind of knowledge Adam and Eve were being introduced to by eating the Tree of Knowledge, Etz Ha'Da'at.

They came from God. Oneness. God's mind and theirs was one. There is A LOT of philosophy within this very story, this very metaphor,
which is of massive relevance. But let's keep it simple and say that, as the Kabbalists recognize, Adam Kadmon was the greatest of all Kabbalists
as he had direct knowledge of all there is...
So, what is the Tree of Knowledge then?
It's Knowledge of Good and Bad, something that God, in Oneness, does NOT know... requiring us, Adam, Humans, to experience it, and thus,
give rise to what you have stated, the ability to appreciate union by experiencing separation.
So, one may even say, it is "meant to be." yes. it is... however, here is a paradox that many fail to grasp.
It is meant to be, but it is nevertheless an error - still - which must be corrected.
As soon as Adam is separated from God, now HE is responsible for the separation and must find the way to return.

So doing anything more than once could define a trap. But is it?
Or is there circulation, a spiral/vortex instead of a circle. Can one ever step into the same stream twice?
I think not. But relatively speaking - okay - trap. Knowledge is a trap if we don't apply it in action.
We've discussed this somewhat with beliefs and opinion.
One could define any goal as a trap, alchemy or otherwise.
One may consider it an offense to "god", that which is, to desire what is to be other than it is.
Thus, is human will/desire always an offense to "the will of god", i.e. that which is?
Or isn't human/personal will also that which is? What isn't that which is?

So "trap" is relative to your perspective and degree of separation.
Are there obstacles to obtaining the stone? Certainly and necessarily.
But it's all relative to how fast you believe you need to get there.
One could relish the obstacles. Nothing wrong with that. One could recycle
or reincarnate a hundred times. Does that mean they missed the mark (the original
meaning of the word "sin")? No. Everyone is always hitting their mark.

I cannot agree with you here.
There is a boundary, and a path to follow.
Free will gives us the ability to choose however, wherever we want to go, but not the right,
as in, the right to do whatever we want. Everyone is always hitting their mark -
I am surprised to hear you say this. I think this is a very basic inviting "positive"thought, but lacks balance,
and is, at times, even perhaps - often - completely off the mark.
I think we can continue to err and live in error and illusion and people die, suffer... and we're not meant to suffer.
We're meant to "re"create the world in a place of Oneness, as it is in the Garden. Love, unity, Peace, abundance, equality.
We can continue to cycle again and again, and there IS error in that.

Who should say
what question another should be asking? Who should say where another should be aiming?

God knows and that person knows on some level of their being... and anyone else on that person's path who is wise enough, healed enough, to recognize where they are stuck,
to help them correct their own trap. People CAN get trapped and NOT fulfill their destiny.
That is not a good thing.

So this is something you decide for yourself. There is no objective answer.

There is an objective answer. I read somewhere on this forum... it was one of my first visits, something that made me smile, deeply, with great appreciation.
It was someone getting angry at the idea that there is no objective truth.
Of COURSE there is...
If you are saying, Solomon, there is no objective answer, then are you not also saying, there is no objective truth?

We can say we
are trapped if we don't feel like we are learning and growing. But such "plateaus" are part of
growth too - they create strength.

I can create strength by shooting nails into my foot.
but eventually, if the act is so futile, in and of itself, the strengthening consequences, in time,
will become a plague.

We could re-label "trap" as "tempering" or "toning" or what-not.
So this is a time relative question and dependant on how much of a hurry one is in (goal-oriented)
or how present one is. Presence dissolves the appearance of traps.
Shekinah conceals satan. Satan conceals Shekinah. Devil est Deus inversus. Yin-Yang, the three gunas, tridosha, tria prima, etc.

You are placing "Shekinah conceals satan. Satan conceals Shekinah" both as if those two are equal and also in the same sentence as Yin-Yang, as if Satan and Shekinah make some Yin-Yang pair.
They do not. I see this as a deep misunderstanding... This is discussed to a certain degree in another thread I had started, here:
http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?2631-Good-vs-Evil-and-the-Quality-of-the-Stone

God-the-Father and Shekinah make a Yin-Yang pair - Sol and Luna.
Samael and Lilith make another Yin-Yang pair, the opposite / counterparts to God and Shekinah, not as in God and Shekinah's Yin and Yang opposite polarities, but as in their dual opposites. there is a difference.
An important distinction.

 

[solomon levi]

Hi Moshe.
It's nice to talk with you and share views, even if we disagree.
My view has changed from kabbalistic to nondual more or less.
When i say everyone is hitting their mark, I mean that it is impossible not to be responsible for your reality.
If one "thinks" it is not their mark, that they have missed, they are merely unaware of their true intent.
Intent always manifests. Always. But there is a difference between intent and "i want", and "i wish",
and "i will"... I suppose I would say intent is an 'I' which knows itself, whereas the rest of those 'I's do not -
they imagine they do, but their 'I' is a transient creature, always changing. One might say will is the effort to
sustain one consistent 'I', but the fact that it is an effort shows the difference between that and intent. Intent
is the reality we accept unquestionably, effortlessly. Intent is more like remembering something that has
already happened rather than imagining a yet unachieved future. This is why the intent of the separate self
or ego/'I' seems so real, so consistent. Anyway, my point, if it needed clarifying, was that people always
manifest their true aim/intent and only sometimes the separate 'I's willful aim. So if it appears we are not
'hitting the mark', then we need to search and know ourselves better.
But if there were a possibility of missing the mark, then there would be no possibility of achieving one's
aim. If intent doesn't ALWAYS manifest, then how could it EVER manifest? As if there is some other reality
than right now, some future in which things are attained... There is no future. If something is possible, it is
only possible now. And if perfection is possible, it is now, and it is not a matter of achieving, but of simply
realizing what already is. That is what Shekinah/Presence is - now. And everything comes from that now root,
including satan, if you believe in such a thing, or know such a thing.
This may be a misunderstanding according to kabbalah, but nonduality/unity trumps kabbalah. I am completely
certain of the One root in which all fragmentation and separation are but appearances. You equated God with
Oneness, so you must agree - Oneness trumps all. Compared to Oneness, there are no "degrees" of separation
in which it matters whether we recognise God and shekinah, God and satan or God and Lilith. Compared to
Unity, any separation is infinite and total separation. Degrees of separation are as false/meaningless as degrees of unity.
But we can "give" them meaning and then talk about it as if it were so, but one who knows Oneness does not believe
in this talk when s/he uses it.

So for there to be an aim or mark is to pretend Unity/God is not. Realise the illusory nature of the goal, the aim, the separate self,
the will... and nothing changes, yet everything appears changed. Oneness cannot be attained or created. It is the Subject; we, as separate
selves, are objects, or appearances. Oneness has never stopped being Oneness. This is a mark we simply cannot miss, because we can
never truly extract ourselves from Oneness in order to aim at it. The All or the many is still the One. How can it possibly not be?

If there is an objective truth, then there is no reason to strive as if the subjective separateness matters or misses the mark.
Missing the mark is a totally subjective interpretation. If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation; we wouldn't be
able to disagree as we have. The fact of our conversation and seeing things differently is sufficient evidence for subjectivity.
What is your evidence for objectivity? It exists psychologically, but not in the world of action. You can say of course objectivity
exists, but your now intent is communicating because subjectivity exists. I don't see any point in arguing the obviousness of this.
The only move in this chess game is to say that objectivity is the One and subjectivity is the many and the many and the One are One.

And if we acknowledge that, then we also would reasonably acknowledge that any system of achievement is bullshit or a game/folly,
and the more one believes in it, the more apparently separate one "becomes" subjectively. The more we strive, the more we affirm
the Intent of apparent separation/lack.

Because of my objectivity, there is no argument to what I have stated. But if you see an argument or disagreement, I'll hear you.
But I just prefer to not complicate things. Fragmentation is fragmentation. We can talk about and/or memorise 10 fragments, or
50 or 1000 or 100000... but all that really matters is 2 - that says it all, simplified; in other words, "not one".

Perhaps the "trap" is to overanalyse. Of course, overanalyse is relative. But i know that for Oneness, anything other than Oneness,
if there were such a thing, would all be known as generic separateness and not as level 3 and level 7, or 5th dimension and 12th dimension, etc.
So labels don't have any objective meaning: "trap", "satan", "tree of knowledge"... only a relative objectivity to a relatively "lower" or more
fragmented subjective point of view. In other words, if we want to imagine levels, then one level will be relatively more objective than another.
These levels may mean something to the subjective collective, but it is obvious to me that the One doesn't love one level more or less than another.
From this view, levels and striving are like motivation for something immobile. Where can the One go?

So if we speak of Oneness, how can we then speak of separateness as if it were real? One cannot serve two masters equally. This again reveals
our true intent. Is Oneness my Intent and the many is just words? Or is Oneness just a word and the many is my Intent? And if the many is my intent,
does it make any difference? Does the sun stop in the sky? Do the birds cease to fly? Is any THING different? No. What is different is not a thing,
but is the Presence, the Quintessence. And that isn't something one does or doesn't do. So from my perspective, traps are a non-issue, or personal investment.

But if they are an issue for you or anyone else, I have no argument against anyone's personal choices. I'm not telling anyone not to believe in traps.
I'm just describing an alternative or what may be seen as a solution by some, if one desires solving.

By definition, a trap is something one can't just walk away from or be free from. I don't know of such a thing, save subjectively and relatively and
apparently. Is it a trap when you can open the door yourself at any time, if you truly intend to? Do you believe or know of objective traps that exist
independantly of individual human observation and interaction?

 

[Seth-Ra]

It's Knowledge of Good and Bad, something that God, in Oneness, does NOT know...

Genesis 3:22

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

(NIV)

If He does not know of it - then why would He say that?

We were meant to eat it - but how can we know bad, if we do not do bad? It was right of Him to say NOT to eat it - so we disobey. Our fall, then gives Him a chance to demonstrate His love and pick us back up. It is a thing of growth. We do not return to the Garden - the Garden was not perfect, it was "very good" - engineers design things that are very good all the time - but not perfect. We are heading to perfection in the end, and this is the journey to get to that end. Our hearts/souls determine our progress and "side" - but all action, good or bad, is good for those on His side, because we learn and grow.
We are God's celestial agriculture - His precious Garden. The weeds must grow with the flowers/wheat (whatever), so that the good ones wont be damaged. (including growth stunted, life made stagnant etc, thus we need the fire, and the falls of Life).

I for one do believe in an Absolute Truth, for whats its worth.
Im just not able to speak it at this moment. lol



~Seth-Ra

 

[Moshe]

Moshe wrote:

"It's Knowledge of Good and Bad, something that God, in Oneness, does NOT know..."

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Genesis 3:22 (NIV)

If He does not know of it - then why would He say that?

Okay... very good point.
I am very familiar with that quote, and I was going to mention it and mention the fact that I believe it is a very important canundrum. In the Stone Chumash translation, it is written:

"And the Lord God said, "Behold, now that the man has become like the unique one amongst us, knowing good and bad.

I found this quote very appropriate even though there is no precendent in the Hebrew "ca-ahud memenu", to say "unique" - I do believe the translation of this statement adding the "unique" is not appropriate, but the interpretation behind the words, the meaning, the whole picture, saying Adam is now "unique" is appropriate.

The Bible does not always say what it means to say, on the surface level, and sometimes it says things it doesn't mean to say as well.

Moshe de Lion said if one interprets the Torah / Bible word for word, literally, they are being foolish. (well, he actually said, an idiot, but I find that a little harsh)
This doesn't mean it's open for anyone's interpretation.
However, with this concept of Good and Evil, I do sincerely believe that God does not know evil...
God can discern WHAT is evil, but does not know the evil inclination, the evil desire...
that is why I said that. God is ALL Good.
That is why, in the first 6 days of Creation, everything that God creates is GOOD -
the ENTERPRISE of knowing good and bad is reserved for us, God's children, created in the image and likeness, which gives us the opportunity to create a LENS for God, Creator, to know good and evil, THROUGH us, something which, before this endeavour, did not exist.

IRENE: Which also goes back to what you were saying before, which is the testing of yourselves,
isn't it?

Tom: That is correct.

IRENE: Because you exist in an arena where collective consciousness and free will don't have
meaning?

Tom: That is correct.

IRENE: And so for you to better understand free will, you needed to watch how your creation
understood it.

Tom: We needed a lens, yes.

IRENE: And you also knew that there was going to be a battle with the Others.

Tom: We would have been naive not to, yes. But you understand, we did not know the outcome,
for it is not our way.

IRENE: The outcome in terms of your battle with them?

Tom: That is correct.

The Only Planet of Choice Chapter 14 - The Covenant
a little background - The Others, is the opposition to the Creator, what we would call, the evil forces.
Tom means innocence and he is the spokesperson for the Council of Nine, also known as the Elohim in the Hebrew tradition - (from this book)

We were meant to eat it - but how can we know bad, if we do not do bad? It was right of Him to say NOT to eat it - so we disobey. Our fall, then gives Him a chance to demonstrate His love and pick us back up.

Absolutely... and a little paradoxically, it gives us the chance to correct our error by undoing the error and then doing the true nature, the true part and by being His/Her Love.

It is a thing of growth. We do not return to the Garden - the Garden was not perfect, it was "very good" - engineers design things that are very good all the time - but not perfect. We are heading to perfection in the end, and this is the journey to get to that end. Our hearts/souls determine our progress and "side" - but all action, good or bad, is good for those on His side, because we learn and grow.
We are God's celestial agriculture - His precious Garden. The weeds must grow with the flowers/wheat (whatever), so that the good ones wont be damaged. (including growth stunted, life made stagnant etc, thus we need the fire, and the falls of Life).

I for one do believe in an Absolute Truth, for whats its worth.
Im just not able to speak it at this moment. lol

I am with you. I believe your statement "but all action, good or bad, is good for those on His Side" has truth and merit... BUT, there is a line that must be drawn, because good always can piggyback on bad, for growth, for learning, but there is a time when that growth, itself, is ENOUGH, and we must grow up and stop learning the hard way. that, too, is a sign of Love on our parts, so, at some point, and who knows when that is (probably for some time now) we have to stop the bad, and embrace the Fullness of the Good and only the good.

 

[Moshe]

Hi Moshe.
It's nice to talk with you and share views, even if we disagree.

I agree.

My view has changed from kabbalistic to nondual more or less.
.../Anyway, my point, if it needed clarifying, was that people always
manifest their true aim/intent and only sometimes the separate 'I's willful aim. So if it appears we are not
'hitting the mark', then we need to search and know ourselves better.
But if there were a possibility of missing the mark, then there would be no possibility of achieving one's
aim. If intent doesn't ALWAYS manifest, then how could it EVER manifest? As if there is some other reality
than right now, some future in which things are attained... There is no future. If something is possible, it is
only possible now. And if perfection is possible, it is now, and it is not a matter of achieving, but of simply
realizing what already is. That is what Shekinah/Presence is - now. And everything comes from that now root,
including satan, if you believe in such a thing, or know such a thing.

I understand the concept of the perfection of the Presence of Now. A soul can experience a reality of Oneness and perfection within their own bubble experience of their immediate surroundings... including their own consciousness.
but there is also a level of reality that they will not be able to experience of the collective... that is, of this earth's reality.
if we are all One, which we are, and some suffer in their illusion and fear and hate, and others experience Love and the Divine, can you not see the simple schism in that?
the simple non-unity of that.
There is a lack of evolution - it is not PERFECT in the NOW...
Yes, we must accept the Now to move forward, bc fighting against is futile.
but we must also recognize what is not in harmony with the Will and Nature of the Divine and align ourselves with that.

God / Creator is not impartial to our existence. i have heard the notion that God doesn't care, either way, what we do to ourselves and others.
I don't buy it. I think, in fact, that is quite a misleading philosophy!!! not sure that you're saying this, Solomon, but my responding to you has led me to these words
and thoughts, so they may be cousins to each other.

This may be a misunderstanding according to kabbalah, but nonduality/unity trumps kabbalah.

Kabbalah is not trumped by anything. it is the body of Divine knowledge of all that is. How can anything trump it?
Yeah, sure, the body of collected writings of Rabbinical scholars that we have amassed on the subject of Kabbalah is not infinite, nor a perfect representation,
but Kabbalah is the truth itself. it is not limited. It is, in and of itself, the knowledge and wisdom of non-duality / unity, while also discussing the nature of the dualistic world.

I am completely
certain of the One root in which all fragmentation and separation are but appearances. You equated God with
Oneness, so you must agree - Oneness trumps all. Compared to Oneness, there are no "degrees" of separation
in which it matters whether we recognise God and shekinah, God and satan or God and Lilith. Compared to
Unity, any separation is infinite and total separation. Degrees of separation are as false/meaningless as degrees of unity.
But we can "give" them meaning and then talk about it as if it were so, but one who knows Oneness does not believe
in this talk when s/he uses it.

One can believe in Oneness, strive towards it, become it, and still recognize the existence, around them, on this earth, of the duality / separateness.
When a master achieves a state of Oneness, they don't look at a suffering child at the hands of a sick parent as Oneness.
When a master regards a person being forced against their will to have intercourse with a sick, maligned person, they do not see Oneness.
They can have compassion, sure, for ALL of it, but there is still such thing as discernment of what is Oneness, what emanates from Oneness,
and what has yet to achieve that re-integration.

So for there to be an aim or mark is to pretend Unity/God is not. Realise the illusory nature of the goal, the aim, the separate self,
the will... and nothing changes, yet everything appears changed. Oneness cannot be attained or created. It is the Subject; we, as separate
selves, are objects, or appearances. Oneness has never stopped being Oneness. This is a mark we simply cannot miss, because we can
never truly extract ourselves from Oneness in order to aim at it. The All or the many is still the One. How can it possibly not be?

because we chose to come here.
we chose this world of duality, to play by the rules, to forget. it was set up for this purpose - as a pressure cooker, as a grind, to evolve our souls.
We are in an arena where the duality has weight, because it is a means to an end (growth - evolution).
Saying "there is no duality - all is Oneness" does not remove from one's very nature the fact that the evil dwells in the cells (unless one has absolute absolute absolute mastery
of the Mind over Matter---> VERY RARE)
This is the basis for Alchemical thought. why do you think we purify with fire?
We must make that which is corrupt and fallen in nature back to its true form before the fall!

Most eastern masters are masters of the mind, not the mind WITH the body. there is a disconnect, and so they still die because that disconnect is part of the fall and part of the duality itself. when their mind recognizes the truth, but it remains disconnected from their bodies, they are not the full evolved Master of this Earth reality. They have not balanced Heaven with Earth.
. they do not achieve the Oneness of mind and body of the alchemist Adept, of the Hermes Trismegistus,
of the Christ master who has gone through hell and death to get the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

If there is an objective truth, then there is no reason to strive as if the subjective separateness matters or misses the mark.
Missing the mark is a totally subjective interpretation.

au contraire - it is the VERY reason to strive bc there is an objective truth, and we, in our subjective separateness have forgotten...

If it weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation; we wouldn't be
able to disagree as we have. The fact of our conversation and seeing things differently is sufficient evidence for subjectivity.
What is your evidence for objectivity? It exists psychologically, but not in the world of action. You can say of course objectivity
exists, but your now intent is communicating because subjectivity exists. I don't see any point in arguing the obviousness of this.
The only move in this chess game is to say that objectivity is the One and subjectivity is the many and the many and the One are One.

the many can return to the One.
But the many, in our case, on earth, are not there yet...
so... the many is not the One... not yet.
yes, in our TRUEST nature, we are... but we have taken on this physical mantle to infuse it with the whole light of God...
that is the purpose of this earth. not to just come into this body, corrupted and vulgar,
to just flee back into the Oneness without it.

Where is my evidence for objectivity?

the essential similarity of the teachings of the masters. (there's a book called "jesus and buddha the parallel sayings")
the holographic nature of the world.
the resonance I feel when others speak the same objective truth I have found to be most high (of course, evolving... in process, but still there, viewable, observable)

And if we acknowledge that, then we also would reasonably acknowledge that any system of achievement is bullshit or a game/folly,
and the more one believes in it, the more apparently separate one "becomes" subjectively. The more we strive, the more we affirm
the Intent of apparent separation/lack.

Very Taoist.
But again, I don't agree.
I think we have to work very hard.

Perhaps the "trap" is to overanalyse.
So if we speak of Oneness, how can we then speak of separateness as if it were real? One cannot serve two masters equally. This again reveals
our true intent. Is Oneness my Intent and the many is just words? Or is Oneness just a word and the many is my Intent? And if the many is my intent,
does it make any difference?

What about - Oneness is my intent and my reality and the separateness is my wish to help resolve back into the Oneness?
in other words, i count myself on the side, the purpose and the intent of ending the separateness, bc it causes suffering.
it is very real to those who still live within it, including myself, when i am in a place of separateness.

By definition, a trap is something one can't just walk away from or be free from. I don't know of such a thing, save subjectively and relatively and
apparently. Is it a trap when you can open the door yourself at any time, if you truly intend to? Do you believe or know of objective traps that exist
independantly of individual human observation and interaction?[/QUOTE]

perhaps trap is not the best word - but a pitfall. However, they are similar in nature.
one can fall in and get oneself out. just like one can get poisoned and fight one's way out of the poison.
but this trap, as i began with, is a bigee, and it can mess the heck out of someone. Best not to fall to begin with, cause it's much harder to step around the pit, than
to pull oneself out once one has fallen.

 

[solomon levi]

Hi Moshe.

Trump - well, doesn't Kether trump, say, Chesed, or any other sphere?
Kabbalah is a system. Oneness is not a system. There's no path to it
because there's no separation from Oneness possible. Any rule or "thou shalt"
is an intent to be separate. Any dissapproval or desire for altering what is is
an intent of separation. Notice I am not saying it is wrong or to stop doing it.
I'm just saying what it is.

When/if Buddha or Christ attained union, the world didn't stop suffering,
but they stopped seeing suffering. We don't call it suffering when people choose to suffer.
We don't "save" people from their own choices - they are gods. No one needs to be saved.
The idea that suffering needs to be cured is a view of duality. The idea that people aren't
gods who chose/choose to have the experiences they have is one of duality.
Buddha realised that he, along with everyone else, had been enlightened all along.
The experience of duality is happening withn Oneness - everything is, of course. Where else?
The choice/experience of duality must not and cannot be taken from someone. A snake
doesn't need help to shed its skin when it's ready. To not love and allow people until they
are ready to shed themselves of duality is only adding to the appearance of suffering.

This is what I have found from my own experience. We emphasize what we focus on, think
about, believe in. I am not free of duality. I don't think anyone in a body is. But i can free
myself from my mind, from my thoughts about what is. And even when i have thoughts, I
don't have to believe in them. I don't have to identify with them and emphasize them and
act on them as if they mean something. With detachment, I can choose which ones to act on,
what to emphasize. I could emphasize the suffering in the world, but i just don't see the point.
It wouldn't bring the world or myself closer to Oneness, or farther.

Your description of the reality is not my experience. It isn't something that happens in a personal
bubble separate from the world. How can one define Oneness with separation? My personal
consciousness, or yours or anyone's, is not different from the One consciousness. How could it be?
Oneness doesn't exist "somewhere else". That would be twoness.

In my experience, yes, a master who achieves Oneness actually does see it everywhere, in suffering
and rape too. These are no different than any other event/label. You seem to want to define Oneness
by duality again. You are not describing Onenes alone, which is actually all this.

Anyway, no need to repeat myself. This thread is about traps. I've shared my view on solving
traps. Anything more I say would really be off topic since i don't believe in traps.

 

[Moshe]

Hi Moshe.
Trump - well, doesn't Kether trump, say, Chesed, or any other sphere?
Kabbalah is a system. Oneness is not a system.

Hmmm... I don't think Keter trumps anything, really, unless you mean in terms of its "high vibrational nature" then, yes. it does.
it is the highest in that respect. But I do not see each individual sphere as containing the whole. Keter is the high counterpart of Malchut.
They make a yin-yang pair. Keter is not balanced without Malchut.
The Tree is a whole, and Keter is a part of that whole.
If there is one Sphere that trumps them all, it is Tiferet, which is the center of the tree and made up of the essence of all the Yin-Yang balances, male-female balances.
from our earthly enterprise, since we sit on the planet of balance, between Mars and Venus, we are meant to achieve the balance between heaven and earth here,
so... the only trump, really, is Tiferet.
That's how I've come to understand it and how I choose to see it.

There's no path to it
because there's no separation from Oneness possible. Any rule or "thou shalt"
is an intent to be separate. Any dissapproval or desire for altering what is is
an intent of separation. Notice I am not saying it is wrong or to stop doing it.
I'm just saying what it is.

I appreciate your grace and gentleness in the matter.
I too recognize our disparate realities, but do not harbour any ill feeling as a result.
It is a step up from our former incarnations when we felt the need to joust or duel as a result of the difference.

I say this - There is a path bc we need to return. We are not yet One. You, yourself, as you say, are not One,
so then there is a path. Simply believing "I am One" is not enough. (unless, again, you have absolute clarity of consciousness, which is very very very rare)
It is bc, as you say, we have a body. That body can be transmuted and transformed along with the mind to attain an actual oneness.
that is a path. just as alchemy is a path.
Why do you study, practice, share, moderate the alchemy forums if there is no path?
Why do ANYTHING if you're already in Oneness.

When/if Buddha or Christ attained union, the world didn't stop suffering,
but they stopped seeing suffering. We don't call it suffering when people choose to suffer.
We don't "save" people from their own choices - they are gods. No one needs to be saved.
The idea that suffering needs to be cured is a view of duality. The idea that people aren't
gods who chose/choose to have the experiences they have is one of duality.
Buddha realised that he, along with everyone else, had been enlightened all along.
The experience of duality is happening withn Oneness - everything is, of course. Where else?
The choice/experience of duality must not and cannot be taken from someone. A snake
doesn't need help to shed its skin when it's ready. To not love and allow people until they
are ready to shed themselves of duality is only adding to the appearance of suffering.

I just think this philosophy and attitude lacks a lot of compassion.
We cannot go in and pry a soul's mind and force them to stop suffering.
but we can lend a hand, no? Help them?

I think it is so much simpler from the heart, seeing from the heart, rather than the mind.
The heart is the center point between heaven and earth and is thus, like Tiferet, the trump over all of this discussion.
When a person achieves mastery, when they have grace and peace, and they cast their view on the world,
how can you say they do not see suffering?
I think, again, it is the opposite. they wish to help bc people are so misled, so stumped, so stuck and deceived, often innocently.

Again comes the idea of evil, within which, i know we share disparate realities.
i say, there is evil. by saying that, i am not FOCUSING on it, cause that would darken my eyes for the time.
BUT, i am simply recognizing what is. I do not create it so, bc it is an objective fact.
so this evil has a plan - to manipulate, deceive, destroy. it's on the side opposite God.
I stand on the side with God. that is my intent, even if i am not yet perfect with God.
my brothers and sisters who suffer as a result of the evil on this planet are misled, deceived, and stuck.
i know how deep the stuckness and deception can go and how far it can trap people.
they are not allowed/entitled to some help from a soul who can help?

of course they are.

I am a naturopathic doctor and healer. i specialize in counseling and homeopathy.
When people come to see me, i help them. They are choosing to let me help them come out of their duality and illness.
Is that ok?
Of course. I am sure you would agree.
Now, if someone does not want to be helped, if they are negating and fighting help, they cannot be helped. They must want to be, and be open to be.
but what of people who suffer as a result of their own choices, yet, they are asking for help?

In my experience, yes, a master who achieves Oneness actually does see it everywhere, in suffering
and rape too. These are no different than any other event/label. You seem to want to define Oneness
by duality again. You are not describing Onenes alone, which is actually all this.

This just seems so fundamentally, obviously wrong. The inherent disconnect in these words speaks for itself.

 

[Awani]

In my experience, yes, a master who achieves Oneness actually does see it everywhere, in suffering
and rape too. These are no different than any other event/label. You seem to want to define Oneness
by duality again. You are not describing Onenes alone, which is actually all this.

What I was trying to get across earlier. Duality is an interesting subject. It is an illusion. If there is a oneness than this one thing is not separated... it is whole. Complete. It does not contain any parts. We are all already healed beings, we are just ignorant of the fact. The duality, society, culture all mist in front of our eyes.

Again what is evil? Murder evil yes, but if we step on a bunch of ants from our perspective an accident but perhaps from theirs genocide. When I imagine from the perspective of some infinite blissful spirit collective I have problems seeing that it would even bother with the petty morals of silly humans. Good, evil... it's aaaaaaall goood. The cosmos have only one law: what have you learned?

If you have learned nothing you have to go back, another ride, another life... but if you have learned you can ascend, transcend, into ?

One version anyway.

 

[solomon levi]

Hi Moshe.

The sephiroth can, or have been, also arranged as concentric circles.
With that arrangement it is clear what everything is contained in - what the
trump is, if we wish to designate one. I can agree with tiphareth being balance,
but not origin/root and therefore "trump".

But it doesn't really matter. What I meant to convey is that all the power comes from the One.
Everything else is a moon or a vessel reflecting its light. I think that is evident.

Why do I... if there is no path? One can totally do these things without them being paths to the One.
I agree mostly with return, but it is not a retracing of one's path down. The saying, "You can't get
there from here." applies well. We got here by leaping, by "falling". A reciprocal leap is necessary.
Following a path is not a leap. It only works so far. What happens when you come to an abyss?
Where is room for the unknown, for the 99% in following a path? When people die, do you call that
a path? Following? What about grace? What about the billion trillion things you have not yet thought of?
Aren't they part of the All-One? How to follow a path that is beyond thought?
J. Krishnamurti said, "Truth is a pathless land." I have seen that myself and that is what I am trying
to convey to you. There is no system, no path, that can contain the whole. Every system is "do this -
don't do that". Every system is defined. And every definition excludes something or it wouldn't be defined.
So none of that can be the way because it fragments. That is the big trap IMO. Trying to heal suffering
with separation/fragmentation, which is the source of all suffering.

No. I agree. Simply believing "I am one" is not enough for sure. I do not condone belief at all, but i recognize it
as a part of society and don't condemn it. If there is a practice, or some way to magnetise or better our chances
of experiencing the One, for me it is in "this" - "what IS". Any rejection of "this" is a fragmentation and thus
impossible to court the One. That includes rejecting rape or whatever. I know that doesn't sound nice, but
it's the truth. Anything we want to change, alter, avoid, manifest, etc... is a rejection of "what is" and there is
no God other than "what is". All of this IS God. This reality doesn't exist as some separate bubble independant of
its source. It is an extension of the Source, an emanation as Kabbalah would say. So until you accept all of it as
God, there is no possibility for return. Tikkun is a trap. Healing is a trap. Unconditional love means UNCONDITIONAL.
It doesn't mean 'heal the sick' or 'conquer death' or 'human rights', 'mens rights' 'women's rights' 'gays rights' or anything
like that. We cannot 'govern' our way into Oneness. What government would allow/love the chaos/All?
The same when you said something about masters of Oneness still seeing rape or sickness. They don't. In order to
see rape it must be defined by a pole - consensual sex - and now were in duality, not Oneness. Oneness/God doesn't
see rape. It doesn't judge, and it doesn't make rules or say 'this, not that' because it would deny Itself if it were possible,
but it isn't.

So where is the heart in this? The heart is in the truth of it. I can spoonfeed you sugary lies that fragment the world
into good and bad and thus fragment you from God, but how is that loving you? The only way to Oneness is not
a path or a system - it's right where you are, it's awareness, it's acceptance... you can't "get closer" by "gradually
accepting more and more". This may make us feel good, but again - there are no degrees of Oneness. It is unapproachable.
No separate self can approach it. We just have to realise the separate self is not, and find ourselves suddenly in Oneness.
Only you can't even do that - even that is two: Oneness and a person recognizing they are in Oneness. You have to stop
existing. And no one has made a path for that. Who would take it if they did? The self doesn't want to not exist.

Compassion... Mmmmm... yeah. I think it does lack compassion as most humans define that. But God isn't a human.
And seeing people as victims instead of gods is a lie and a denial of their divinity. If someone asks me for help, sure -
usually I do if I can. But crusading against suffering? People have a divine right to suffer. There really are no victims.
Lots of people are in love with their suffering. Lots of people love to tell you 'poor me' stories. That's how they learned
to get attention when it didn't come other ways. If people practiced "what is", then whatever is present would have their
full attention, and people wouldn't be fighting for it and being victims for it and all the games we play.

How do they not see suffering? If they are One they don't, because suffering is a definition which excludes everything
else but suffering, so it is not One. If they are god, then all they see is God. Not suffering god and happy god and all
the other trillions of ways gods can appear in fragmentation.

Evil... alot of people may think me evil... cold, without compassion, "How can rape be God?" They might want to
crucify me for my preaching All-acceptance, unconditional God. "Why doesn't he hate the Romans?"
I am making this comparison with no ego/self-aggrandizement on my part.
The world's a crazy place. If you tell someone you just met that you love them, sincerely, they become suspicious.
Love is to be feared for most!

What of people asking for help? Just because they're asking doesn't really mean they want it.
I'm sure you know that. I'm sure you are as "intuitive" or "people-wise" as i am, and you just use
your knowingness on whether someone really wants help or not. But where you and i will probably
disagree is in what help is. People don't like the help I have, because it deconstructs the self. As long
as the separate self is around, people will always need help, and always suffer. And they'll probably
kill you before they let you help them give up the self. No one wants to die, and that's the only solution.
The rest are band-aids.

Fundamentally wrong... But truthful. Which do you prefer? Truth or right?
Oneness is Oneness. I was not mistaken or false when i said you define Oneness with duality.
You were mistaken. Will these mistakes help people? On the surface, but not to the core of Oneness.
It is completely logical that rape is only seen in comparison to consensual sex, or some other fragment,
so you are not talking about Oneness when you mention rape. It cannot be mentioned or seen in Oneness.
This is the truth. That doesn't make me unloving or without compassion, just because I accurately
define Oneness.
Enlighten me as to what the "inherent disconnect" is in those words.
I could have said light is known only relative to dark. You brought up rape, so...

Another thing that is important to me, in line with eliminating beliefs, is that we live presently.
Alot of psychological stuff is not real, not present, only mind. So when you cite Buddha and
Christ as evidence of objectivity, that is not evident. It's mental, not actual. I cited our conversation,
which is actual, and subjective. This is important to me, but if you don't feel that way, I'll work with
what you give me. But I would be surprised if you can help people without knowing the difference
between actual and imaginary. Objectivity is not happening now, so there is no evidence. Future
and past are not evidence. That would mean your mind exists externally for everyone else.
How crazy would that be!

I hope this is still enjoyable. I do respect you and think we are still somewhat in calrifying definitions
and learning each others languages - how to communicate to each other. It's an interesting dynamic we
have. We're kind of coming from opposite places talking about the One. You are involved in helping people
and I am involved in leaving them be and accepting them. I respect people too much to interfere. It's only
because I am very capable myself, so i project that to others. I'd rather work my own way than have help.
The position I am in cannot be helped by anyone but me. And i feel that is true about everyone when we
realluy get down to what matters.

 

[Andro]

Dear Sol,

Your perspective reflects my own with 'alarming' )) accuracy.

I just don't have the patience to present it the way you do... And I doubt it can be understood from within the constraints of a strict belief system...

_______________________________________________________________________

Now here's a sort of a test:

There is a story about someone from a rather famous electronic music group in London who walked through a park one late evening, on his way home from the recording studio.
While crossing the dark alleys of the park, he heard screams and noticed that a woman was being raped.
His reaction to the event was NOT to interfere, but rather take out his digital recorder and sample the screaming sounds.
The story may not be true (it may be just another urban myth) - but this is less relevant.

Would you judge this person? Harshly? Would you have helped/interfered/denied the woman the rape experience?

Or would you have reacted the same if you were in his position?

(by 'you' - I mean everyone reading this)...

I know it could be difficult to theorize (for one not having been in this situation) - but still...

I think this could be a challenging exercise (for some)...

 

[Moshe]

Hi Moshe.
Why do I... if there is no path? One can totally do these things without them being paths to the One.
I agree mostly with return, but it is not a retracing of one's path down. The saying, "You can't get
there from here." applies well. We got here by leaping, by "falling". A reciprocal leap is necessary.
Following a path is not a leap. It only works so far. What happens when you come to an abyss?
Where is room for the unknown, for the 99% in following a path? When people die, do you call that
a path? Following? What about grace? What about the billion trillion things you have not yet thought of?
Aren't they part of the All-One? How to follow a path that is beyond thought?
J. Krishnamurti said, "Truth is a pathless land." I have seen that myself and that is what I am trying
to convey to you. There is no system, no path, that can contain the whole. Every system is "do this -
don't do that". Every system is defined. And every definition excludes something or it wouldn't be defined.
So none of that can be the way because it fragments.

Hi Sol.

I actually agree with this entire paragraph.
I don't follow a prescribed defined path. I never have.
I have learned much from many different systems, but synthesize only essence, and go from there.
A instinctive, Soul-driven, guided, ever-evolving path.
I agree with you in this.

No. I agree. Simply believing "I am one" is not enough for sure. I do not condone belief at all, but i recognize it
as a part of society and don't condemn it. If there is a practice, or some way to magnetise or better our chances
of experiencing the One, for me it is in "this" - "what IS". Any rejection of "this" is a fragmentation and thus
impossible to court the One. That includes rejecting rape or whatever. I know that doesn't sound nice, but
it's the truth. Anything we want to change, alter, avoid, manifest, etc... is a rejection of "what is" and there is
no God other than "what is". All of this IS God.

This is, again, where we differ.
I don't think that all that is on Earth is God.
It is an arena that includes aspects and experiences that are not of God.
God is ALL that is. Yes. But... and there is a but, an important subtlety here -
and that is that here, in this world, in this arena, we can have experience of that which God is not.
Here, there is a realm that seems to exist, that has weight in its illusionary nature, that is outside of God's realm.
This creates the choice. The choice is good, but not the energy or the realm that invites a choice outside of God's All that is (Love / Good)...
So, having the choice to choose good (All that is) or evil (illusion that has weight and consequence) is good because it helps the soul to grow,
but choosing evil, or I should say, staying in the realm of evil, or thinking evil is a part of the All that is, is not true, nor is it good.

This reality doesn't exist as some separate bubble independant of
its source. It is an extension of the Source, an emanation as Kabbalah would say. So until you accept all of it as
God, there is no possibility for return. Tikkun is a trap. Healing is a trap. Unconditional love means UNCONDITIONAL.
It doesn't mean 'heal the sick' or 'conquer death' or 'human rights', 'mens rights' 'women's rights' 'gays rights' or anything
like that. We cannot 'govern' our way into Oneness. What government would allow/love the chaos/All?
The same when you said something about masters of Oneness still seeing rape or sickness. They don't. In order to
see rape it must be defined by a pole - consensual sex - and now were in duality, not Oneness. Oneness/God doesn't
see rape. It doesn't judge, and it doesn't make rules or say 'this, not that' because it would deny Itself if it were possible,
but it isn't.

Oh my... Solomon...
yikes.

Do you believe Yeshua (Jesus) was One with God? An Enlightened Avatar / Master / Christ?

Did he not turn over the money lenders tables?
Did he not make it VERY clear what is true in the eyes of God and in the kingdom of Heaven, from what is not?
I imagine you do not subscribe to the way of Yeshua, the teachings or the Being of Yeshua, otherwise, you would not say what you say.
There are boundaries, my friend.

Evil... alot of people may think me evil... cold, without compassion, "How can rape be God?" They might want to
crucify me for my preaching All-acceptance, unconditional God.

I don't think you're evil. I think you're misled by evil. And I wonder how you got (so far) there.

Another thing that is important to me, in line with eliminating beliefs, is that we live presently.
Alot of psychological stuff is not real, not present, only mind. So when you cite Buddha and
Christ as evidence of objectivity, that is not evident. It's mental, not actual. I cited our conversation,
which is actual, and subjective. This is important to me, but if you don't feel that way, I'll work with
what you give me. But I would be surprised if you can help people without knowing the difference
between actual and imaginary.

I help people, in one of the major ways I do help /heal, by helping them recognize their limitations / false beliefs.
by empowering them with very actual awareness. not frameworks or imaginary beliefs.
I don't replace one belief with another, but just choose to help a person unravel the false, and let God in to do the rest.

I hope this is still enjoyable. I do respect you and think we are still somewhat in calrifying definitions
and learning each others languages - how to communicate to each other. It's an interesting dynamic we
have. We're kind of coming from opposite places talking about the One. You are involved in helping people
and I am involved in leaving them be and accepting them. I respect people too much to interfere. It's only
because I am very capable myself, so i project that to others. I'd rather work my own way than have help.
The position I am in cannot be helped by anyone but me. And i feel that is true about everyone when we
realluy get down to what matters.

well, I agree with you in certain contexts. in advanced thinkers, people with time to reflect and meditate and work with themselves.
but even for those, life is tough, and this earth has many challenges, and we all fall, we all get tripped up and lose our way.
this is what help is for.
another thing help is for, is to organize people in numbers to overcome the evil that rules this world and attempts to enslave humanity
through control of media, money, medicine, oil, war, etc.

Is this enjoyable?

It is a little shocking to see you so confidently, plainly, and publicly declare things that seem so very very simply wrong to me.